All Jungle Start: A Non-starter?

[bcaiko]

I recently started a Huge game (King) which did not start well, IMHO. As Japan, my starting position was jungle. ALL JUNGLE. Every space within two squares was Jungle. The third ring surrounding my capital had a couple of forests, but was mostly jungle, too.

I did have a Gold and Gem luxury nearby...burried under jungle. (I have had all jungle/coatal starts before where I only had Gems.) I had no production, but obviously good early population growth. I didn't even get bananas. Eventually I did manage to get a worker out to clear the jungle from the luxuries and a hill or two, which did provide some production. I'm still playing the game, but the start has really tailored what I could hope for (not a religion or any wonders, that's for sure).

Here's my question: how many people would have retired with this start right out of the gate? Is this start worth the headache? I usually will try to fight my way out of a bad start, but I have no qualms that I will not be winning this game.

Eventually cities that are surrounded by jungle can be good: monsterous metropolises powered by banana science and sacred path culture. But getting there sure takes time (which doesn't lend itself to a Japan in the middle of a huge continent surrounded by Rome, Russia, Persia, The Aztecs, and an England who denounced me on turn 3 and went Hostile with no red indicators). I would have rather been able to produce units.

What do people think? Would you have fought your way out of an all jungle start? Could you make it work? Or would you re-roll?

 

[Catan_Settler]

Jungle's great. Although... I've never seen a spot that was ALL jungle in the first two rings. That seems like overkill for sure. But yeah, you could make a powerhouse out of it by the midgame. So, pop a settler and build another city for producing troops in the meantime.

 

[cpm4001]

I would almost certainly abandon an all-jungle start unless I was playing as the Iroquois or the Aztecs. However, I guess if you're willing to stick with it (and not chop all the jungle) until you have Education you'll be able to crank out the Beakers (even more so if you pick up some of the Rationalism policies later on.)

 

[ixias]

IMO, it depends on what else is around. I've had all Jungle starts, but was on a hill/river next to a mountain with Bananas, Citrus, and Gems scattered around the area. There were also a decent amount of hills, so I eventually chopped out some of the Jungle to make mines.

Jungle starts aren't optimal, but usually aren't awful. They can also be pretty powerful if you select the right things. Getting Sacred Path, Universities, TP spam with Commerce and Rationalism can yield you tiles that produce 2 , 3 , 3 , and 1 . It may seem like a lot, but I've done it in multiple games. If you're too concerned with production, there are a couple of religious beliefs that can definitely help.

 

[Justice1337]

No Bananas? Ok to clarify, you're talking about a flatland start with no rivers and no food resources. Whether jungle or not, that's an extremely improbable start on any setting other than Scarce Resources. Dealing with a jungle to uncover your luxes is a problem, but your main problem is that out of food and production you got neither. I would have rerolled this one, no guilt, and then wondered how that could've even happened.

Jungle starts in general can be ok. They will usually have bananas and two or three production tiles. I love that kind of start because no Worker is needed early, and so you can open Scout, Shrine/Monument, Granary(!!!). Working two 4 food tiles by Turn 20 is the bee's knees. I still dream about a start I had where I had 2 adjacent bananas underneath, then all Desert Hills, Gold, Marble, and Stone to the North. I was Maya, so I even grabbed Desert Folklore. Busted.

 

[bcaiko]

Jungle starts aren't optimal, but usually aren't awful. They can also be pretty powerful if you select the right things. Getting Sacred Path, Universities, TP spam with Commerce and Rationalism can yield you tiles that produce 2 , 3 , 3 , and 1 . It may seem like a lot, but I've done it in multiple games. If you're too concerned with production, there are a couple of religious beliefs that can definitely help.

I actually managed to take Sacred Path, but I won't be wasting my time trying to found a Religion. The Celts are clearly in my game, I don't have access to any Religious City States or Faith producing pantheon, didn't get a Faith goodie hut (I did get two free techs, though!), and couldn't settle near a Faith-related Natural Wonder. I've lost the Religion Race. I got beaten to a pantheon several times before I could found mine (poor production = late shrine), and I'll never make up that ground. I'll eventually have to borrow someone else's Religion, but for now Sacred Path is making it work.

So, pop a settler and build another city for producing troops in the meantime.

Exactly what I did! ...when I had the production to actually make one. ;D

I think that city somehow scared England out of her obviously planned invasion into my territory.

No Bananas? Ok to clarify, you're talking about a flatland start with no rivers and no food resources.

Nope. No bananas. Not on a river. Not an entirely flat start, but close to it. (In addition to the Gold and Gems, which were on hills, I believe there were two more hills near me. I already stripped one before moving development to my second city.)

Believe it or not, I've had this happen to me twice before, but I've always been on the coast. (Once in a multiplayer game, I had one Gem and thought I was on the coast. I was on an inland sea. I ended up needed to pillage an AI's tiles for money at one point in that game. hahah).

 

[mintcandy]

What do people think? Would you have fought your way out of an all jungle start?

Depends on which era the game started out in.

If it were Renaissance or later? Heck yeah I'd fight through.

Medieval to Renaissance? Maybe.

Anything before? Heck no.

 

[whyidie]

I've abandoned better starts. Had a ton of jungle not just in my cap but separating me from other civs. Didn't have the gumption to wage through the jungle.

 

[joncnunn]

In Vanilla, an all jungle start was okay since you could trade post on turn 1 which could offset how bad the hammer situation is. With G&K and not being able to add trade posts until Guilds so you can't even start to get the advantage jungle has too much jungle calls for a reroll. (Unless using advanced start)

 

[Antiphon]

I did not have an "all jungle" start in the literal sense, but pretty close. I always took it as a challenge, sometimes I won, sometimes I lost. Never did manage sacred path, and it sucks that you can't TP them before guilds.

 

[Bandersnatching]

I've had a number of all jungle starts, with varying degrees of resources, and though I used to try playing them out, nowadays it just seems like a waste of time. Higher difficulty level hurts too.
If the jungle start has a lot of potential after BW is researched, then I might play it out. If there are like three resources in the rings around the city, just no. Reroll.

 

[nanomage]

I think jungle starts are more or less ok.
On king, you might be able to Liberty-GE rush HG in capital for some food surplus to get those 2 science tiles to work. I played a jungle start recently, as Carthage.
It was not brilliant, but tolerable. I think the biggest problem (beside the obvious lack of production) is that while 2 food tiles are self-sustaining, your city grows very slowly working them.
In my game I had problems actually growing my capital, akthoug I went tradition.

I'd suggest emphasizing food buildings and maritime CS's heavily, and maybe trying to grab HG. (unlikely with low hammer start though).
Do you have access to any high-food tiles at all?

 

[IkM]

Time for a reroll. Jungle worst start, IMO. but if you play as Iroquois jungle would be useful.

 

[bcaiko]

Time for a reroll. Jungle worst start, IMO. but if you play as Iroquois jungle would be useful.

Truth be told, I have never rerolled. I once told someone here on CivFanactics who posted a picture of his start on a one tile island of snow that he should try and make a go of it to see what he could accomplish.

 

[Light Cleric]

Move a couple tiles so you're not completely stuck in the Jungle but can still keep some of the good tiles. Yeah, it will slow you down a few turns, but staying there will slow you down even more. That's really the best advice I have for a Jungle start.

You can also take a shot at The Pyramids(often even on Deity), but only partially addresses my main problem with Jungle, which is the need for Bronze Working AND Calendar for your luxuries + the 10 or 12(I forget sometimes ) turns to improve them. That makes for a PAINFULLY slow start.

 

[Unresolved]

Move a couple tiles so you're not completely stuck in the Jungle but can still keep some of the good tiles. Yeah, it will slow you down a few turns, but staying there will slow you down even more. That's really the best advice I have for a Jungle start.

You can also take a shot at The Pyramids(often even on Deity), but only partially addresses my main problem with Jungle, which is the need for Bronze Working AND Calendar for your luxuries + the 12 turns to improve them. That makes for a PAINFULLY slow start.

But in a jungle start, you likely have really low production. Wouldn't that make building the Pyramids take ages? Surely there are better ways to use those turns.

 

[Light Cleric]

If you're settling in place then yes, it's a horrible idea. But if you can move enough to get some decent production tiles then you can have it for when you settle a second city back there/your capital's borders expand back.

And if you REALLY can't get out of the Jungle(this is rare) then it's one of the few times I can justify settling the capital on a flatland by doing it on a luxury.

 

[Unresolved]

Ehh, I suppose. I'm not really partial to the Pyramids because I think there is something to be said for getting an early worker and start working/selling the luxury resources. That and I generally don't beeline Masonry unless I have multiple things that require it.

 

[Justice1337]

The problem with an "all-jungle" start is that even if you have lots of hills, the tile is still 2f and not 2h. So it's as if you started in the middle of a grassland.

Mining luxes are the only thing that make this start even remotely playable. You hit mining on your way to Bronze Working and might have them both by the time your Worker is out, since your prodction is bad in the first place.

Of course, certain Civ's like this opening tech path better than others. I'd say it's playable with Persia, more or less fine with Rome or Iroquois. With any of these, you can make a decent aggressive/expansive start with a high-prod second city location, Liberty for Collective Rule, Shrine after Scout on Emperor and lower for Sacred path, otherwise Monument. Hope you get treated well by the goody huts.

Rolling with any start is a baller way to play Civ. The only thing more fun than winning in this game is losing.

 

[bcaiko]

If you're settling in place then yes, it's a horrible idea. But if you can move enough to get some decent production tiles then you can have it for when you settle a second city back there/your capital's borders expand back.

And if you REALLY can't get out of the Jungle(this is rare) then it's one of the few times I can justify settling the capital on a flatland by doing it on a luxury.

In this instance, I determined it would take at least three turns for my settler to get anywhere near production tiles. If I had gone anywhere but due NE, it would have taken even longer than that.

I settled in place, hoping to pop a second settler once I found a stong position for a second city. I didn't want to waste culture, science, and potential faith on a fool's errand. I didn't think of moving to settle on the luxury, though...

I'll have to post some pictures of the start when I can get around to it. This game was already going to be tough for me, but the start really killed my inital strategy with Japan.