Alternate History Thread V
- Thread starter Dachs
- Start date
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Seems like the civil wars of the sixth century are relatively less destructive than those of the fifth, at least thus far. It will be interesting to see if the Avars remain in Pannonia or not.
I forsee a Basilica of St. Serena in Rome's future.
Just like pater Procopius, she's quite the restitutrix orbis herself.
How regretful that Procopius' plans to recross the Channel were scrapped. That would have been interesting. Speaking of which, hopefully soon we'll be seeing how the butterflies have affected Britain and India, n'est-ce pas?
I forsee a Basilica of St. Serena in Rome's future.
Just like pater Procopius, she's quite the restitutrix orbis herself. How regretful that Procopius' plans to recross the Channel were scrapped. That would have been interesting. Speaking of which, hopefully soon we'll be seeing how the butterflies have affected Britain and India, n'est-ce pas?
It's a pity we aren't going to have a large Egyptian empire dominating the Levant and the Balkans; a three-power Rome-Egypt-Persia NES would have been very interesting. In fact, maybe another PoD ought be twisted by someone to give such a situation? Something changing in the third century BC could give interesting results of that sort.
The migration of large numbers of Germans into northern France (and present in their tribal organisation, not taking over Roman power-structures) has interesting implications for the far future of this world, perhaps. Given the absence of Thuringians and Bavarians from Eastern Germany, who now inhabits OTL Thuringia and Bavaria? Is there relative depopulation in eastern Germany, or are there non-German tribes or newly formed German tribes there?
Did Anglo-Saxon migrations to Britannia take place ITL?
I look forward greatly to Rome's recollapse.
The migration of large numbers of Germans into northern France (and present in their tribal organisation, not taking over Roman power-structures) has interesting implications for the far future of this world, perhaps. Given the absence of Thuringians and Bavarians from Eastern Germany, who now inhabits OTL Thuringia and Bavaria? Is there relative depopulation in eastern Germany, or are there non-German tribes or newly formed German tribes there?
Did Anglo-Saxon migrations to Britannia take place ITL?
I look forward greatly to Rome's recollapse.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
The classic PoD to achieve such a result is an Antonian/Cleopatran victory in the civil war with Augustus. It was made into a NES waaaay back in the day, but I can't remember who modded it.
You betcha; where do you think the Saxons in northern Gaul are coming from?
I don't; if anything history has taught us that a Roman Empire can go through a near-infinite number of dynastic reconstitutions.
Oh? I thought Dachs said something about an impending collapse. Anyway, a dynastic reconstitution frequently involves a collapse, and, nevertheless, history also tells us that a Roman Empire collapses, albeit not entirely, between each reconstitution.
I'm not so attracted by that; it's too simple perhaps, and militarily Egypt would be very similar to Rome in that time period, as late Hellenistic armies very much imitated Roman ones. We'd just have a protracted Roman civil war as much as two empires.
Three installments in, dude. And this thing ain't even close to complete yet.
Well, there are some Lombards, Saxons, and so forth. Plus, it's not as though all the Thuringians and Bavarians left, either; it's more like the elite transfer model than a 19th century-esque mass directed migration.spryllino said:
Dachs is being intentionally vague about everything other than the fact that this is probably going to be Rome's apex.
I wouldn't say so - unless you mean extremely late Hellenistic, like the 60s BC onward. Nick Sekunda's done a lot of good work refuting the notion of "imitation legionaries".spryllino said:
I suppose collapse isn't really what I meant, or at least not the collapse of the Roman Empire; rather the collapse of the present apex, or the Roman Empire's decline, is what I intended when I wrote that.
In Cleopatra VII's time, this is, so very late Hellenistic, yes.
In Cleopatra VII's time, this is, so very late Hellenistic, yes.
Cull
Big Daddy
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2010
- Messages
- 2,838
Let's assume it isn't a myth.
Could the other leaders, such as Zhu De, manage the Communist party to the extent of Mao? Would it not entirely impossible that the North would fall to the Japanese in the face of a weak Communist party, as opposed to the semi decent one it was OTL?
Also, Maoism would have never developed either, which is interesting.
Could the other leaders, such as Zhu De, manage the Communist party to the extent of Mao? Would it not entirely impossible that the North would fall to the Japanese in the face of a weak Communist party, as opposed to the semi decent one it was OTL?
Also, Maoism would have never developed either, which is interesting.
Could the loss of the Canadian Red Ensign plunges Canada into a civil war?
(Hopefully this is not too ASB…also for the sake of not having 10 pages, I’ve shortened the list of events so as to make the scenario easily read/debated)
PoD: May 17, 1964
1964:
May 17th the Royal Canadian Legion Convention, Winnipeg MB:
Lester B. Pearson announces to a rather unsympathetic crowd of legionnaires that the time has come for the Canadian Red Ensign to be replaced. He is met with much hostility from the legionnaires who demand of Pearson that the Union Jack is maintained in any new flag.
One disgruntled legionnaire attending the conference, and already embittered by what he sees as the destruction of the Canada that he fought so hard to protect, decides that for the good of the country, he has to kill Pearson.
As Lester B. Pearson is exiting the building, the legionnaire draws fourth his Webley revolver which he had been carrying with him, and fires at the Prime Minister of Canada.
Pearson is hit and falls to the ground, and with quick precision the RCMP officers assigned to protect the Prime Minister fire upon the assailant. The legionnaire quickly succumbs to his wounds and dies, but before speaking his last breath he utters out: Do away with our present flag with all its traditions, next the Queen and Commonwealth, then what - welcome Communism? Though at the time, this was thought to be a bitter statement of a resentful war veteran who could not live with the changing times; his quote would become the rallying cry to arms.
May 18th:
News wires across the country are ablaze as news of Lester B. Pearson’s attempted assassination sweep the country. Pearson from his hospital bed at Deer Lodge Hospital, informs reporters from the CBC, the Winnipeg Tribune, the Free Press and many other news organizations in attendance at his bedside, that the attempt on his life, would not shake his resolve to continue on with the work of finding a distinctive flag for Canada.
It was rumored in some political circles, that John Difenbaker was rather upset with the Prime Minister’s quick recovery. Though through some whisperings, it was insinuated that Difenbaker and his colleagues may have helped to plan the shooting, these rumors were quickly dismissed as unfounded.
May 19th-31st:
In houses across the country and all over the airwaves, debate over a flag for Canada rages. Conservatives take the opinion that the Red Ensign must remain as the flag of Canada as it was seen as both the war flag, a symbol of the nation’s Christian heritage and loyalty to Her Majesty the Queen. Liberals counter with the argument that the Union Jack and the Canadian Red Ensign are symbols of colonialism and do apply to modern democratic Canada.
The CBC also broadcasts reports about violence from Red Ensign supports, though this is dismissed as simply ruffians and hooligans attempting to stir trouble. Rumors also begin to pour out of Quebec of English-speaking Canadians using the Red Ensign as an excuse to cause small violent scuffles in Montreal.
June 15th 1964:
The Prime Minster opens parliamentary debate on the flag issue:
“… to establish officially as the flag of Canada a flag embodying the emblem proclaimed by His Majesty King George V on November 21, 1921 — three maple leaves conjoined on one stem — in the colours red and white then designated for Canada, the red leaves occupying a field of white between vertical sections of blue on the edges of the flag.”
Reports of protestors on Parliament Hill does little to dissuade Pearson and his liberals.
June 16th to October 22nd 1964:
The Great Flag Debate rages on in parliament and in homes across the country….though on October 22nd the Liberals through what was best described as political gamesmanship outmaneuver the Conservatives and ensure that the Stanley design is approved.
December 15th 1964:
The final vote to adopt the Stanley design is passed, though it is remarked by John Difenbaker who dismissed the new flag as "a flag that Peruvians might salute".
Reports across the country of violence between Red Ensign supporters and liberals continue, but this is seen by most as merely reactionaries attempting to stir up trouble.
February 15th 1965:
At the stroke of noon, the Canadian Red Ensign was struck at Parliament Hill amidst a rather large protest which did much to mar the event. Lester Pearson though agitated by the protestors was proud of what he had achieved, and believed that the commotion would soon be over, and that the new flag would become accepted whether those on the right liked it or not. Unfortunately for Pearson, all was not well.
Across the country, at sea and at Canadian military posts abroad discontent with the new flag and what was seen as a potential victory for Marxism over Canada lead to a series of rather unfortunate events culminated in what is now referred to as “The Canadian Civil War”.
“Incidents”:
Aboard HMC ships officers and senior ratings refuse to strike the White Ensign, and instead toss the new Canadian Flag over the side in protest.
At HMCS Stadacona the Ensign bearers at retirement ceremony for the white and blue ensigns of the Royal Canadian Navy, refuse to stay retire the former flag. Liberals across the Maritimes watch aghast on live television as the Atlantic Command of the Royal Canadian Navy appears to mutiny.
Similar reports of insubordinate behavior at RCN stations, Canadian Army barracks and RCAF stations are reported. By the end of the day, it is reported that the RCN has mutinied (though the report is very out of hand), it only emboldens those in the RCN, Canadian Army and RCAF to further action. By the end of the week, the Armed Forces of Canada could be best described as having committed mutiny (at least among the senior ranks and officers).
Reports of violence amongst the citizenry, and sit down strikes by public safety officials only add to further the tone of resentment; the nation is heading to a breaking point.
March 5th 1965:
“The Breaking Point”: In an attempt to regain control of a situation which was seen as spiraling out of control, the Prime Minister enacts the “War Measures Act”, an action which he would soon regret….
(Hopefully this is not too ASB…also for the sake of not having 10 pages, I’ve shortened the list of events so as to make the scenario easily read/debated)
PoD: May 17, 1964
1964:
May 17th the Royal Canadian Legion Convention, Winnipeg MB:
Lester B. Pearson announces to a rather unsympathetic crowd of legionnaires that the time has come for the Canadian Red Ensign to be replaced. He is met with much hostility from the legionnaires who demand of Pearson that the Union Jack is maintained in any new flag.
One disgruntled legionnaire attending the conference, and already embittered by what he sees as the destruction of the Canada that he fought so hard to protect, decides that for the good of the country, he has to kill Pearson.
As Lester B. Pearson is exiting the building, the legionnaire draws fourth his Webley revolver which he had been carrying with him, and fires at the Prime Minister of Canada.
Pearson is hit and falls to the ground, and with quick precision the RCMP officers assigned to protect the Prime Minister fire upon the assailant. The legionnaire quickly succumbs to his wounds and dies, but before speaking his last breath he utters out: Do away with our present flag with all its traditions, next the Queen and Commonwealth, then what - welcome Communism? Though at the time, this was thought to be a bitter statement of a resentful war veteran who could not live with the changing times; his quote would become the rallying cry to arms.
May 18th:
News wires across the country are ablaze as news of Lester B. Pearson’s attempted assassination sweep the country. Pearson from his hospital bed at Deer Lodge Hospital, informs reporters from the CBC, the Winnipeg Tribune, the Free Press and many other news organizations in attendance at his bedside, that the attempt on his life, would not shake his resolve to continue on with the work of finding a distinctive flag for Canada.
It was rumored in some political circles, that John Difenbaker was rather upset with the Prime Minister’s quick recovery. Though through some whisperings, it was insinuated that Difenbaker and his colleagues may have helped to plan the shooting, these rumors were quickly dismissed as unfounded.
May 19th-31st:
In houses across the country and all over the airwaves, debate over a flag for Canada rages. Conservatives take the opinion that the Red Ensign must remain as the flag of Canada as it was seen as both the war flag, a symbol of the nation’s Christian heritage and loyalty to Her Majesty the Queen. Liberals counter with the argument that the Union Jack and the Canadian Red Ensign are symbols of colonialism and do apply to modern democratic Canada.
The CBC also broadcasts reports about violence from Red Ensign supports, though this is dismissed as simply ruffians and hooligans attempting to stir trouble. Rumors also begin to pour out of Quebec of English-speaking Canadians using the Red Ensign as an excuse to cause small violent scuffles in Montreal.
June 15th 1964:
The Prime Minster opens parliamentary debate on the flag issue:
“… to establish officially as the flag of Canada a flag embodying the emblem proclaimed by His Majesty King George V on November 21, 1921 — three maple leaves conjoined on one stem — in the colours red and white then designated for Canada, the red leaves occupying a field of white between vertical sections of blue on the edges of the flag.”
Reports of protestors on Parliament Hill does little to dissuade Pearson and his liberals.
June 16th to October 22nd 1964:
The Great Flag Debate rages on in parliament and in homes across the country….though on October 22nd the Liberals through what was best described as political gamesmanship outmaneuver the Conservatives and ensure that the Stanley design is approved.
December 15th 1964:
The final vote to adopt the Stanley design is passed, though it is remarked by John Difenbaker who dismissed the new flag as "a flag that Peruvians might salute".
Reports across the country of violence between Red Ensign supporters and liberals continue, but this is seen by most as merely reactionaries attempting to stir up trouble.
February 15th 1965:
At the stroke of noon, the Canadian Red Ensign was struck at Parliament Hill amidst a rather large protest which did much to mar the event. Lester Pearson though agitated by the protestors was proud of what he had achieved, and believed that the commotion would soon be over, and that the new flag would become accepted whether those on the right liked it or not. Unfortunately for Pearson, all was not well.
Across the country, at sea and at Canadian military posts abroad discontent with the new flag and what was seen as a potential victory for Marxism over Canada lead to a series of rather unfortunate events culminated in what is now referred to as “The Canadian Civil War”.
“Incidents”:
Aboard HMC ships officers and senior ratings refuse to strike the White Ensign, and instead toss the new Canadian Flag over the side in protest.
At HMCS Stadacona the Ensign bearers at retirement ceremony for the white and blue ensigns of the Royal Canadian Navy, refuse to stay retire the former flag. Liberals across the Maritimes watch aghast on live television as the Atlantic Command of the Royal Canadian Navy appears to mutiny.
Similar reports of insubordinate behavior at RCN stations, Canadian Army barracks and RCAF stations are reported. By the end of the day, it is reported that the RCN has mutinied (though the report is very out of hand), it only emboldens those in the RCN, Canadian Army and RCAF to further action. By the end of the week, the Armed Forces of Canada could be best described as having committed mutiny (at least among the senior ranks and officers).
Reports of violence amongst the citizenry, and sit down strikes by public safety officials only add to further the tone of resentment; the nation is heading to a breaking point.
March 5th 1965:
“The Breaking Point”: In an attempt to regain control of a situation which was seen as spiraling out of control, the Prime Minister enacts the “War Measures Act”, an action which he would soon regret….
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
I've got this Alt in the works where Franz Joseph I was actually Queen Victoria in mutton chops.
Historically, acts of violence/intimidation in relation to what was the perceived flag of Canada have occurred as late as the 20th century.
March the 1st 1900:
Approximately 2000 students from McGill University marched into the French language newspapers forcing the Union Jack to be flown from their flagpoles. Furthermore, they marched over to city hall where they protested until the Union Jack was flown, and then proceeded over to Laval University(a French Language institution), where they forced a Franco-Canadian to strike the Canadian Red Ensign and raise up the Union Jack.
The following evening, the students went around intimidating/threatening shop keepers to fly the Union Jack, and eventually marched on Laval University again, but were pushed by with fire hoses. Now the rioting carried on for several days, with English Canadians violently promoting the Union Jack, and often times using force to ensure that it was the only displayed flag of Canada.
Now there are many other accounts of violence surrounding the flag, and what is perceived as Canadian identity, so it would not surprise me, that given the right incident, that violence on a national scale could erupt.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
We're not really a platform for pet nationalism here, and judging by your avatar, I'd say you have some sort of axe to grind.
It's an interesting idea, but not a realistic one. I especially doubt the lack of loyalty of the Canadian armed forces that you've proposed.
It's an interesting idea, but not a realistic one. I especially doubt the lack of loyalty of the Canadian armed forces that you've proposed.
I was actually thinking of doing a Guess the PoD map for my next NES, but then I decided that while being able to suddenly conjure up one of them would be preferable, I can’t, and so I would find it more interesting, and perhaps even easier, to just write the timeline out in full. So, here we go, starting with a somewhat short instalment. I am not completely convinced by the likelihood of all of it, but I am sure people will tell me (please) where there are faults.
The Chremonidean War of 268 BC was, perhaps, a turning point in our timeline, in which it is the last of a series of failed southern Greek rebellions against the Macedonian garrisons that had been placed in many of the Greek poleis. However, in this timeline, it is a turning point of another sort entirely, and one that marked the rise of an Empire.
Macedonia’s monarchy was an insecure one. Its ruler had been but one of many pretenders to the Macedonian throne, and the dynasty of Lysimachus had been its ruling house for many years before the succession of the Antigonus Gonatas to the throne, which he had reinforced by being the first of these pretenders to defeat the invading Celts conclusively at Lysimachia.
Sparta, under Areus I, had gained notable power in the Peloponnese, and he had won a great amount of glory in expelling Pyrrhus from Lacedaemon in 272, and he also had rebuilt much of the former Peloponnesian League, and made connections in Crete with the city of Gortys.
Athens declared war against Macedonia, in the name of freedom, and quickly expelled the garrison that was keeping the port for the Macedonian King, and the Macedonians marched south to prevent their Peloponnesian allies from joining up with them. However, Ptolemy Philadelphus, hoping to assert his own hegemony in southern Greece in the place of the Macedonian hegemony, landed a considerable expeditionary force in 266 in the Argolid, and, marching to join Areus, they forced the passage of the Isthmus, breaking Antigonus’s army in the process. Antigonus withdrew, and Ptolemy was able to install garrisons in the Acrocorinth, and captured much of the Antigonid fleet by taking it by surprise off Paros. Euboea quickly fell to Philadelphus’s fleet, and Athens and Sparta made their peace with Antigonus; the rebirth of the Peloponnesian League was assured, and hegemony in southern Greece fell, for the moment, to Egypt.
Ptolemy was quick to land his forces at Lysimachia to capitalise on his victory, and when the Macedonian army was smashed at Derdia by Alexander II of Epirus, he marched west to install one of the pretenders, Ptolemy II (son of Lysimachus), at Pydna, leaving Upper Macedonia under Epirot control, before marching to secure the last of the renowned fetters of Greece, Demetrias. Having, predictably, renamed it Ptolemais, he withdrew, leaving garrisons around the Aegean perimeter.
Alexander, heady with victory and acclaimed by his troops as true to his namesake, and with his position enormously strengthened by the possession of much of Macedonia, boarded ship with a large army, complete with elephants, to succeed where his father had failed; the holy grail of Italian supremacy was to be a defining feature of the Epirot monarchy for many of Pyrrhus’s descendants. He launched the Alexandrine War in 245, and added to the mess that was the Mediterranean at the time. For, of course, Rome and Carthage were engaged at the time in war over Sicily.
Alexander landed at Taras, and it rose in support of him, and his large army posed a clear threat to Rome’s security. The Romans were forced to withdraw forces from Sicily to deal with the Epirot threat, and this turned the fortunes of the Carthaginians on the island, who, within two years, had Messana under siege, and Alexander had defeated the Romans in several engagements. Rome could do little but concede Messana to the Carthaginians and withdraw, and Roman forces defeated Alexander at Caulonia, smashing his army, which was hardly able to deal with both consuls’ armies at once. Taras expelled his garrison before he could reach it, and he barely escaped back to Epirus with the remainder of his army, only for it to be smashed again by the army of Ptolemy, the king of Macedonia, in 241.
The two sons of Alexander, called Pyrrhus and Ptolemy, escaped back to Taras, and succeeded in rousing the mob to rebellion again against Rome. An army was collected together, with Lucanian and Messapian elements as well as Greek ones. Pyrrhus concluded an alliance with Carthage, which quickly despatched an army, which landed at Thurii and marched directly towards Rome.
Meanwhile, though, events were complicated by Ptolemy of Macedonia’s death in 240. The Epirot aristocracy rebelled, with the support of the rising Aetolian League, and placed Pyrrhus back on the throne, and so, leaving his brother Ptolemy in charge of events in Taras, he sailed back home to take control, just in time to get control of Epirus before Lysimachus, Ptolemy’s son, could strike back. The two kings fought a bitter war for seven years with no result in sight. The Tarentine mob, furious at their apparent betrayal, set upon and killed Ptolemy in the marketplace, and pledged allegiance to Carthage.
The Romans were shortly defeated in a series of battles over the next five years, and Carthage, at the time, had no real desire to secure control over more than the Greek poleis of southern Italy. The Samnites revolted and the Boii and Insubres invaded, and, fearing a general revolt of all its allies, and, as always, with something of an irrational fear of the Gauls, Rome gave Carthage control of Magna Graecia and paid a large indemnity in 234. Having to shoulder a huge indemnity merely caused even more revolts, and Rome was now faced with the fearsome opposition of the Samnites, many of its other socii, and the Gauls all at once.
Meanwhile, one triumph led to another for the Ptolemies; the Second Syrian War was a complete victory, and ensured Ptolemaic control over the coast of Asia Minor, and the Third Syrian War saw the Seleucid armies defeated, and, with undisputed naval supremacy, the Ptolemies emerged from the war with control of Syria in 240. The Seleucids removed their court to Seleucia on the Tigris, and Antiochus Hierax secured firm control of Asia Minor, and, without any interference from the Seleucid monarch at Babylon, firmly secured Pergamum under his rule, and allied himself with the Galatians. He used them to eject Ariarathes from Cappadocia, enlarging the area under Galatian control considerably, and his wars with Ariarathes took up Hierax’s military efforts, as well as those of the Galatians, for the next decade. Hierax also allied himself with Bithynia by marriage.
Nevertheless, the Ptolemaic kingdom now had to guard Syria against both Callinicus and Hierax, and this meant that, despite concluding peace with both rulers, Euergetes was not able to intervene effectively in Greece, when, with his land reform smoothly carried out with the support of the other members of the Peloponnesian League, Cleomenes III of Sparta seized the dual opportunity of Egypt’s distraction in Mesopotamia and the inconclusive war between Pyrrhus and Lysimachus in the north, and besieged Corinth in 236, with a large army. It fell to his forces the following year, and it seemed, now, as if all central Greece lay prone before him.
268 BC to 235/4 BC
The Chremonidean War of 268 BC was, perhaps, a turning point in our timeline, in which it is the last of a series of failed southern Greek rebellions against the Macedonian garrisons that had been placed in many of the Greek poleis. However, in this timeline, it is a turning point of another sort entirely, and one that marked the rise of an Empire.
Macedonia’s monarchy was an insecure one. Its ruler had been but one of many pretenders to the Macedonian throne, and the dynasty of Lysimachus had been its ruling house for many years before the succession of the Antigonus Gonatas to the throne, which he had reinforced by being the first of these pretenders to defeat the invading Celts conclusively at Lysimachia.
Sparta, under Areus I, had gained notable power in the Peloponnese, and he had won a great amount of glory in expelling Pyrrhus from Lacedaemon in 272, and he also had rebuilt much of the former Peloponnesian League, and made connections in Crete with the city of Gortys.
Athens declared war against Macedonia, in the name of freedom, and quickly expelled the garrison that was keeping the port for the Macedonian King, and the Macedonians marched south to prevent their Peloponnesian allies from joining up with them. However, Ptolemy Philadelphus, hoping to assert his own hegemony in southern Greece in the place of the Macedonian hegemony, landed a considerable expeditionary force in 266 in the Argolid, and, marching to join Areus, they forced the passage of the Isthmus, breaking Antigonus’s army in the process. Antigonus withdrew, and Ptolemy was able to install garrisons in the Acrocorinth, and captured much of the Antigonid fleet by taking it by surprise off Paros. Euboea quickly fell to Philadelphus’s fleet, and Athens and Sparta made their peace with Antigonus; the rebirth of the Peloponnesian League was assured, and hegemony in southern Greece fell, for the moment, to Egypt.
Ptolemy was quick to land his forces at Lysimachia to capitalise on his victory, and when the Macedonian army was smashed at Derdia by Alexander II of Epirus, he marched west to install one of the pretenders, Ptolemy II (son of Lysimachus), at Pydna, leaving Upper Macedonia under Epirot control, before marching to secure the last of the renowned fetters of Greece, Demetrias. Having, predictably, renamed it Ptolemais, he withdrew, leaving garrisons around the Aegean perimeter.
Alexander, heady with victory and acclaimed by his troops as true to his namesake, and with his position enormously strengthened by the possession of much of Macedonia, boarded ship with a large army, complete with elephants, to succeed where his father had failed; the holy grail of Italian supremacy was to be a defining feature of the Epirot monarchy for many of Pyrrhus’s descendants. He launched the Alexandrine War in 245, and added to the mess that was the Mediterranean at the time. For, of course, Rome and Carthage were engaged at the time in war over Sicily.
Alexander landed at Taras, and it rose in support of him, and his large army posed a clear threat to Rome’s security. The Romans were forced to withdraw forces from Sicily to deal with the Epirot threat, and this turned the fortunes of the Carthaginians on the island, who, within two years, had Messana under siege, and Alexander had defeated the Romans in several engagements. Rome could do little but concede Messana to the Carthaginians and withdraw, and Roman forces defeated Alexander at Caulonia, smashing his army, which was hardly able to deal with both consuls’ armies at once. Taras expelled his garrison before he could reach it, and he barely escaped back to Epirus with the remainder of his army, only for it to be smashed again by the army of Ptolemy, the king of Macedonia, in 241.
The two sons of Alexander, called Pyrrhus and Ptolemy, escaped back to Taras, and succeeded in rousing the mob to rebellion again against Rome. An army was collected together, with Lucanian and Messapian elements as well as Greek ones. Pyrrhus concluded an alliance with Carthage, which quickly despatched an army, which landed at Thurii and marched directly towards Rome.
Meanwhile, though, events were complicated by Ptolemy of Macedonia’s death in 240. The Epirot aristocracy rebelled, with the support of the rising Aetolian League, and placed Pyrrhus back on the throne, and so, leaving his brother Ptolemy in charge of events in Taras, he sailed back home to take control, just in time to get control of Epirus before Lysimachus, Ptolemy’s son, could strike back. The two kings fought a bitter war for seven years with no result in sight. The Tarentine mob, furious at their apparent betrayal, set upon and killed Ptolemy in the marketplace, and pledged allegiance to Carthage.
The Romans were shortly defeated in a series of battles over the next five years, and Carthage, at the time, had no real desire to secure control over more than the Greek poleis of southern Italy. The Samnites revolted and the Boii and Insubres invaded, and, fearing a general revolt of all its allies, and, as always, with something of an irrational fear of the Gauls, Rome gave Carthage control of Magna Graecia and paid a large indemnity in 234. Having to shoulder a huge indemnity merely caused even more revolts, and Rome was now faced with the fearsome opposition of the Samnites, many of its other socii, and the Gauls all at once.
Meanwhile, one triumph led to another for the Ptolemies; the Second Syrian War was a complete victory, and ensured Ptolemaic control over the coast of Asia Minor, and the Third Syrian War saw the Seleucid armies defeated, and, with undisputed naval supremacy, the Ptolemies emerged from the war with control of Syria in 240. The Seleucids removed their court to Seleucia on the Tigris, and Antiochus Hierax secured firm control of Asia Minor, and, without any interference from the Seleucid monarch at Babylon, firmly secured Pergamum under his rule, and allied himself with the Galatians. He used them to eject Ariarathes from Cappadocia, enlarging the area under Galatian control considerably, and his wars with Ariarathes took up Hierax’s military efforts, as well as those of the Galatians, for the next decade. Hierax also allied himself with Bithynia by marriage.
Nevertheless, the Ptolemaic kingdom now had to guard Syria against both Callinicus and Hierax, and this meant that, despite concluding peace with both rulers, Euergetes was not able to intervene effectively in Greece, when, with his land reform smoothly carried out with the support of the other members of the Peloponnesian League, Cleomenes III of Sparta seized the dual opportunity of Egypt’s distraction in Mesopotamia and the inconclusive war between Pyrrhus and Lysimachus in the north, and besieged Corinth in 236, with a large army. It fell to his forces the following year, and it seemed, now, as if all central Greece lay prone before him.
Interesting. I think you killed the Maks awfully quickly, and overstated the power of the Epirotes and Ptolemaios' willingness and ability to prosecute the war with Gonatas beyond lending the Greek cities an occasional hand. Also, did the Qarthies even want Megale Hellas? Seems a bit beyond the pale for them. Things seem to have gone awfully easily for the Ptolies and the Qarthies. I don't really like how some people have managed to have awfully similar careers to OTL despite not being born yet at the PoD. 
Nevertheless, this should be an interesting setup. What has happened with Diodotos/Theodotos in the East?
Nevertheless, this should be an interesting setup. What has happened with Diodotos/Theodotos in the East?
Similar threads
