Americas

[FishFishFish]

He never was it leader by fact, but was the dude who made an alfabet for Cherokee people who still used today among the community.

I think he would fit better as a great writer instead.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I think he would fit better as a great writer instead.

If not Sequoyah, who should lead the Cherokee nation?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If Osceola leads Seminole, it will be just more one boring indian civilization who should pick up other better names as the Iroquois, Shawnee, Cherokee, Sioux and etc...
But if John Horse lead it that make Seminole very special. (The only rasonable choice from Blacks in North America)

Osceola was also mixed race considering his father was a Scotsman. Sure he's not half black but being mixed race also makes him just as interesting.

 

[Birch617]

Yeah i think we should see Seminole as more of a mixrace civ with stronger connectiosn to their indigenous origin (similar to the Metis), still i think the freed men that joined and mix with the tribe should still be the more prominent part of that mixed focus of the Civ, also reading some more about John Horse, he its actually a really interesting leader and could also work

 

[Patine]

If Osceola leads Seminole, it will be just more one boring indian civilization who should pick up other better names as the Iroquois, Shawnee, Cherokee, Sioux and etc...
But if John Horse lead it that make Seminole very special. (The only rasonable choice from Blacks in North America)
I don't know what Unique Unit should the Seminole have, maybe something replacing a rifleman, but show ethnics of units in this game is so underloocked, the only way to represent the interation o Black community in Seminole tribe is portray it's leaders of Black community.

So, @Evie, myself, and a few others are correct? Native American civ's - except maybe Tupi - are, "boring and not worth inclusion," compared to staple choices (alongside the Toltecs and Tupi,), unless their leader is inexplicably someone of African decent - to hijack the whole Native American culture and identity of it's own - and a small, insignificant Deccan civ in India very few have heard of becomes an, "amazing and great contender," for only three or four Indian civ slots, and is declared the ONLY decent choice the Deccan region, because they also have a leader of African, not Indian decent. I think this is a case of desiring greater representation of Black African leaders gone too far and way overboard, as far more iconic, well-known, and established leaders of certain cultures and cultural are being declared that they should step aside to little-known African imports whose stories are highly idiosyncratic, and not representative.

 

[Birch617]

So, @Evie, myself, and a few others are correct? Native American civ's - except maybe Tupi - are, "boring and not worth inclusion," compared to staple choices (alongside the Toltecs and Tupi,), unless their leader is inexplicably someone of African decent - to hijack the whole Native American culture and identity of it's own - and a small, insignificant Deccan civ in India very few have heard of becomes an, "amazing and great contender," for only three or four Indian civ slots, and is declared the ONLY decent choice the Deccan region, because they also have a leader of African, not Indian decent. I think this is a case of desiring greater representation of Black African leaders gone too far and way overboard, as far more iconic, well-known, and established leaders of certain cultures and cultural are being declared that they should step aside to little-known African imports whose stories are highly idiosyncratic, and not representative.

I agree that Henri does have the tendency to hijack some indigenous culture towards black representation, like how he used to do with the Olmec-Xilanca (I know he doesn't do it anymore) but i think the reason he does this (a not to be a armchair psychologist) its because he doesn't feel represented in the game, as in a black person born in the american continent, so of course he would look towards civs that reflect this fact like Haiti and Palmares, still he like most Southamericans understand that we come from mixrace cultures and its hard sometimes to find representation, at least in my case we got Gran Colombia but in his case he does want a representation of black cultures from the Americas.
When it come to the Seminole, i think its kinda dumb deny the influence of black culture on the Seminole, you know the people whose name come from Cimarron and who some integrants of its tribe speak afro-seminole creole, still i think that Henri saying "Another boring indian civ" its awful and him having overtake of a mix identity toward only one side its wrong.

 

[awesome]

I thought everybody figured out that was his game when he said that some random African dude nobody had ever heard of should lead Brazil.

At least, that’s when I started taking everything he’s posted with multiple grains of salt.

 

[Evie]

I can definitely understand wanting to see black american representation in civ, and it's one reason why Haiti is actually high on my current wishlist. People of African origin have played a big role in the history of the Americas, and it's representation that would be good to see.

Seminole would be another option, but one I'm more wary of because it's likely to count as a Native American civ and we get few enough of these that I'd like any Native civ we get to be there to be purely focused on representing American indigenous people.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I thought everybody figured out that was his game when he said that some random African dude nobody had ever heard of should lead Brazil.

Are you talking about Zumbi dos Palmares? I never said he should lead Brazil, but it's should lead it's own civ called Palmares. The only Black president Brasil had was Nilo Peçanha, but he is not african.

"Another boring indian civ"

When I said that is because we have thousand of options of Native American civs, and some we need to explore well as Iroquois, but just Seminole we can explore it's mix race social police. Is very remarkble the Seminole accept the Slaves as free meanwhile it's antecessor the Creek was using black as slaves.
Because the actuations of Seminole tribe toward the end of global slavery they should appear in the game and a leader as John Horse should represent very well the saga of Seminole community.

 

[Evie]

I'm against the Seminole until and unless we have several Native American civilizations already in the game. As you said yourself there are better native civs to have for native representation, and the main purpose of a native civ should be native representation, not black representation.

If at some hypothetical future point we get to the game regularly having, say, 3 or 4 Native American civilizations, then yeah, the Seminole would be an interesting choice for an extra one.

For black representation, Haiti remains a much better choice.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

When I said that is because we have thousand of options of Native American civs, and some we need to explore well as Iroquois, but just Seminole we can explore it's mix race social police. Is very remarkble the Seminole accept the Slaves as free meanwhile it's antecessor the Creek was using black as slaves.
Because the actuations of Seminole tribe toward the end of global slavery they should appear in the game and a leader as John Horse should represent very well the saga of Seminole community.

In the end Osceola is really a much more compelling leader because he actually lead the whole Seminole tribe. John Horse was only the leader of the Black Seminole which was really a separate community of freed slaves of no more than around 800 at max. I'd be okay with Black Seminoles being represented in their UU though if they were to get in, showing the Seminole's alliance with them.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I'd be okay with Black Seminoles being represented in their UU though

How can we show this amazing heritage just with one Unique Unit? I don't even can visualize a black battalion because it isn't the way they fight. The UU should be something mix blacks and indigenous, but is hard to see etcnicity in units because it is to small in the game.

For black representation, Haiti remains a much better choice.

Is the best choice but not the only one.

I'm against the Seminole until and unless we have several Native American civilizations already in the game. As you said yourself there are better native civs to have for native representation, and the main purpose of a native civ should be native representation, not black representation.

I agree should have another native americans before the Seminole, I voted for Sequoyah of the civilized tribes of south and Tecumseh from the united tribes of north also to come even first of Seminole, but when Seminole comes is very hard to design a proud black seminole community if Osceola be it's leader. But instead it should be John Horse with Native americans UU.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

How can we show this amazing heritage just with one Unique Unit? I don't even can visualize a black battalion because it isn't the way they fight. The UU should be something mix blacks and indigenous, but is hard to see etcnicity in units because it is to small in the game.

They do make the unique units at least visually different than other units in the game, so yes I'm sure you can tell. I mean you can tell they added in female models to the Māori and Gaul unique units, so I don' see why it would be hard to see models of African descent in a Seminole unique unit?

 

[Birch617]

How can we show this amazing heritage just with one Unique Unit? I don't even can visualize a black battalion because it isn't the way they fight. The UU should be something mix blacks and indigenous, but is hard to see etcnicity in units because it is to small in the game.

I mean the Llanero unit from Gran Colombia represents a mixrace subculture from my country, so it would be the same for the Seminole, their unit could be named Esteusti or even be Maskogo related unit, also if i may ask how else (beside the leader) would you represent the mixrace culture of the Seminole, like infrastructure wise?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I mean the Llanero unit from Gran Colombia represents a mixrace subculture from my country, so it would be the same for the Seminole, their unit could be named Esteusti or even be Maskogo related unit, also if i may ask how else (beside the leader) would you represent the mixrace culture of the Seminole, like infrastructure wise?

Just wanting to clarify that the Black Seminole are indeed a subculture of the tribe. They are foremost an indigenous people of America and should mostly reflect that in their uniques and abilities. For that reason I'm fine with the UU being represented, but there's no reason to make it part of the civ ability, or even leader for that matter. On the official webpage of the tribe, none of the Black Seminoles leaders are even mentioned as important historic people, so at this point I'm not sure if they would even appreciate someone like John Horse as representative of their entire tribe, and might be even offensive.

At this point I feel that it would be better to make a separate civ out of them instead of lumping them into a Seminole civ, at least the way Henri wants to design them.

 

[Henri Christophe]

someone like John Horse as representative of their entire tribe, and might be even offensive.

I don't think this is offensive, Seminole tribe don't have the same hierarchy as USA who just have one maximun leader per period. The seminole had a lot of chiefs at same time. John Horse was one of they, I am not sure if John Horse just lead the black community or if he was a semi-leader of all Seminole along side Osceola.
And not make sense make a Black Seminole civ, it should call just Seminole. What we can do is have two leaders of Seminole, Osceola and John Horse. But who will come first?

And I still thinking just make sense to do Seminole if we choice John Horse as leader, if not, it's better choice some other tribe of USA. Maybe the Creek, Cherokee, Shawnee or Sioux.

 

[Birch617]

Just wanting to clarify that the Black Seminole are indeed a subculture of the tribe. They are foremost an indigenous people of America and should mostly reflect that in their uniques and abilities. For that reason I'm fine with the UU being represented, but there's no reason to make it part of the civ ability, or even leader for that matter. On the official webpage of the tribe, none of the Black Seminoles leaders are even mentioned as important historic people, so at this point I'm not sure if they would even appreciate someone like John Horse as representative of their entire tribe, and might be even offensive.

At this point I feel that it would be better to make a separate civ out of them instead of lumping them into a Seminole civ, at least the way Henri wants to design them.

I don't think it would be offensive, especially knowing that his relationship with Osceola, and his role on the Seminole war, but yeah i do think Osceola would be better and hey who know maybe if someone made a mod for the Seminole, they could make with two leaders, been Osceola and John Horse.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't think it would be offensive, especially knowing that his relationship with Osceola, and his role on the Seminole war, but yeah i do think Osceola would be better and hey who know maybe if someone made a mod for the Seminole, they could make with two leaders, been Osceola and John Horse.

Offensive maybe wasn't the right word. Regardless I just don't feel like he would be seen as a representative of the Seminole as a whole, especially as the only leader.

And I still thinking just make sense to do Seminole if we choice John Horse as leader, if not, it's better choice some other tribe of USA. Maybe the Creek, Cherokee, Shawnee or Sioux.

Well the Seminole are still not one of my top choices either, so I'm fine with that. Well I'd still rather the Seminole than the Sioux.

 

[awesome]

The Sioux would at least have a starting location that isn’t on the east coast. I feel like that’s already a plus over Seminoles.

 

[Henri Christophe]

The Sioux would at least have a starting location that isn’t on the east coast. I feel like that’s already a plus over Seminoles.

And the Seminole are alone in Florida's peninsula. Also an amazing spot to start a civilization.