Ancient Illyria and Ethnic Albania as Playable Civilizations!

[Velja]

@Velja
I think that all MOD makers should stick with the present day borders. The Croatian MOD doesnt include cities like Mostar because its not part of Croatia. And I can see why you would want to make Knin part of Serbia but that city was also the anccient capital of Croatia under King Tomislav.

I'm in a hurry, so I'll reply only to you.

I never said Knin should be in Serbia. I had never put Knin in my mod, although some people wanted me to do so(klick at my signature - Serbian mod thread and look at the city list, it's on page 3). I only said that Knin is the same thing to Serbs as Prizren to Albanians, and as I said - Kosovo should stay in Serbia, that means Knin should stay in Croatia too. But Shqype wanted me to not include Kosovo cities, than someone mentioned Knin and Banja Luka should be in a city list, and Shqype was against it too. And I really hate double standards.
So this: "I think that all MOD makers should stick with the present day borders" should have been referenced to Shqype who had put Ulcinj, Pristina, Prizren, Djakovica and many other cities out of Albanian borders in his mod.

 

[deo]

"I think that all MOD makers should stick with the present day borders" should have been referenced to Shqype who had put Ulcinj, Pristina, Prizren, Djakovica and many other cities out of Albanian borders in his mod.

Aha, so, if i want now to create a Kurdish Civilization, what cities should i add?

 

[Sideral]

- Ottomans at no point had forced conversion to Islam except for their Janissary institution which is a strict exception, but is used to spread false information, such as forced conversion of Albanians and such.

- Contrary to public belief, Ottoman society was extremely tolerant and liberal when it came to religion and it was common for religious clerics of different sects/religions to debate about the benefits of each religion in front of public.

Yes, Ottomans were very tolerant except during turmoil periods when the non-muslims were punished severely - this happens everywhere, but I would like to mention this AND

Muslims paid lower taxes and this is one of the reasons many people were "islamized".

I do not know why the Albanians became muslims thought, you could quote me an article if you wish.

- Greeks even to this date claim there is no such thing as Turks within their borders, and that there is only Islamisized Greeks, or as they call "Mountain Greeks". The Greek government denies any claims of the presence of other ethnic identities in Greece other than Greek.

The only reason I talked about Greeks here is to show a similar behavioural pattern on how a dominant ethnicity in a country will try to supress the minorities. Turks had made the same mistake in calling Kurds as "mountain Turks" for a long while and we payed the price with increased violence. The conflict seems to be settling down today as Turkey gives more recognition and cultural rights to the Kurds as part of their ascension process towards the EU.

The Greek muslims (if you allow me to call them this way) in West Thrace are Pomaks. I believe that they are of Bulgarian origin, not Turkish. Turks who used to live in Greece were exchanged with Greeks from Asia Minor.
Should we compare a minority that has a nation of origin to a nation (the Kurds) who do not have any country?
Shouldn't Kurds have any cultural rights?
Finally, if Greeks are doing something wrong, does this allows other countries to do the same mistake? No!!!

I wish that we could move these discussions to the "World History" section...

Have a nice day!

 

[dinamo_18]

Aha, so, if i want now to create a Kurdish Civilization, what cities should i add?

I couldn't care less about that. The country doesnt even exist. I meant that when creating present day countries we should stick to present day borders.

@Velja
Its gay that he took cities from Serbia and Montenegro and placed them in Albanian MOD but either way just how many people are going to play the game with one of the least advanced, least cultured civilizations ever.

 

[deo]

I couldn't care less about that. The country doesnt even exist. I meant that when creating present day countries we should stick to present day borders.

@Velja
Its gay that he took cities from Serbia and Montenegro and placed them in Albanian MOD but either way just how many people are going to play the game with one of the least advanced, least cultured civilizations ever.

Why are you trying to be provocative?

 

[Shqype]

This Mod is NOT representing the present-day state of Albania. It is a representation of Ethnic Albania, the Albanian cities which were not only founded by these ancient people, but the cities that were free from Slavic rule while they were under the Ottoman Empire; the cities that were taken from the Albanians through conquest by their Slavic enemies with support from Russia and the Great Power of Europe.

@Velja
Its gay that he took cities from Serbia and Montenegro and placed them in Albanian MOD

I didn't "take cities" from the Serbia and Montenegro mod. Some of the Albanian cities included in my mod aren't even in the Serbian Mod. I included Albanian cities in my Albanian mod because those cities have always been Albanian, regardless of which foreign power/people has occupied them!

but either way just how many people are going to play the game with one of the least advanced, least cultured civilizations ever.

This is an exhibition of your ignorance and complete lack of respect. Albanian culture is probably the most unique culture in all of Europe. Probably the only ones that can compete with this are the Greeks, because they have their own unique and distinct culture as well. Much of Western Europe is very similar in culture because of their interaction and influence with each other. Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, etc. are similar because they are all Slavic cultures. Albanian culture, on the other hand, has developed for milleniums before any of the latter even existed. The culture influenced, and was influenced by, the ancient Greek and Roman cultures. The Albanians speak the oldest language and are the oldest living people in Europe. Shkodra was the most important city in the Illyro-Albanian continuity for ~3400 years, both the site of ancient Illyrian kingdoms and the capital of their Albanian descendants. Robert Elsie described the northern Albanians as living in "the last remaining heroic society in Europe." These people have awed many foreigners that took the time to travel through the Albanian mountains to meet the people and learn the customs. Why? Because the Albanians have a unique culture that has developed for centuries upon centuries.

Foreigners like Maximillian Lambertz, Edith Durham, Rose Wilder Lane, Franz Nopsca, Franz Bopp, Norbert Jokl, Robert Elsie, and others have been fascinated by the Albanians and their language + culture. They actually took the time to live amongst the people and enjoy the hospitality offered to them instead of making ignorant statements while knowing next to nothing. This is from Rose Wilder Lane in her book The Peaks of Shala, an account of her travels through the northern Albanian mountains:

"Albanians, descendants of the ancient Illyrians... Though driven northwards by the Greeks, and eastwards by the Romans and Serbs, they have remained in their mountain fastnesses to this day, impervious to any of the civilisations to which they have been exposed."
"They've been impervious to two thousand years of armed invasion. Do you know that the Albanians are the oldest Aryan people in Europe? Do you know that they've held these mountains against the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Mongols, the Serbs, the Turks, and kept their own language and customs and laws since before the beginning of history? Do you know that the Greeks got the names of their gods, their oracles and lots of their mythology from the Albanians? Do you know that the mother of Alexander the Great was an Albanian woman? Do you know that Albanians have been Pashas of Turkey, rulers of Egypt, statesmen of Italy? No, you don't." Her indignation suddenly wilted, became despair. "You don't know anything about Albania, and you're like every one else, you won't stay long enough to learn anything."" But I'm on my way to Constantinople." " Every one goes to Constantinople," said Alex. " Constantinople's nothing," said Betsy. " If you don't see Albania, you're missing the chance of a lifetime. Up in those mountains-right up there in those mountains, a day's journey from here the people are living as they lived twenty centuries ago, before the Greek or the Roman or the Slav was ever known. There are prehistoric cities up there, old legends, songs, customs that nobody knows anything about.

And since you don't know anything about this, don't post at all

 

[Tunch Khan]

The Greek muslims (if you allow me to call them this way) in West Thrace are Pomaks. I believe that they are of Bulgarian origin, not Turkish. Turks who used to live in Greece were exchanged with Greeks from Asia Minor.

Then Greece has somewhere around quarter of a million Pomaks who speak nothing other than Turkish and all claim to be Turkish. Turkey must have forcefully converted these people who happen to be outside their borders. What a talent. )

Jokes aside, you forgot to mention that Western Thrace Turks were never part of population exchange treaty. They were left untouched in return for the Greeks in Istanbul. It's strange how Greece feels so threatened by this small peaceful community. (And trust me, there are so many non-peaceful minorities, you know what i'm saying?) It's all in the records and all you need to do is a small research on Western Thrace Turks (not on Greek Government websites).

You are right about one nation's mistake should not be an example to other people, but my point was to outline a similar behaviour pattern in traumatized countries in the Balkans. We all have the fear of the "other".

Serbs-Bosniaks-Croats-Bulgars-Greeks-Turks doesn't matter who, but we all feel paranoid and xenophobic.
Turks fear the Kurdish land grab;
Greeks claim quarter a million Turks are mountain Greeks;
Bulgarians tried to change all Turkish names with Slavic names in late 1980's;
Serbs felt betrayed when their "empire" was thorn apart (welcome to the club);
Albanians feel they are victims of a Balkan conspiracy to deny their existence;
Bosniaks felt all the world was against them during the war;
Serbs feel today the whole world is against them;
Greeks feel Macedonia is going to annex Salonika (Thessalonika);
Macedonians feel they are the remnants of a prehistoric empire;

and none of these issues can be solved within a generation or two. We are a huge dysfunctional paranoid family that needs a serious group therapy; because no one is willing to move away!

 

[Azkonus]

The Greek muslims (if you allow me to call them this way) in West Thrace are Pomaks. I believe that they are of Bulgarian origin, not Turkish. Turks who used to live in Greece were exchanged with Greeks from Asia Minor.

The Greek Muslims??!! We are Turkish.

My father came from Iskece (Xanthi, Western Thrace) to Turkey in 1952 (long after the population exchange).

Trying to prove Turkish people in Greece are actually Greek, Albanians in Kosovo are Serb is ridiculous and shameful.

 

[Velja]

@dinamo_18:
You are probably right.

Turks fear the Kurdish land grab;
Greeks claim quarter a million Turks are mountain Greeks;
Bulgarians tried to change all Turkish names with Slavic names in late 1980's;
Serbs felt betrayed when their "empire" was thorn apart (welcome to the club);
Albanians feel they are victims of a Balkan conspiracy to deny their existence;
Bosniaks felt all the world was against them during the war;
Serbs feel today the whole world is against them;
Greeks feel Macedonia is going to annex Salonika (Thessalonika);
Macedonians feel they are the remnants of a prehistoric empire;

and none of these issues can be solved within a generation or two. We are a huge dysfunctional paranoid family that needs a serious group therapy; because no one is willing to move away!

Beautiful sentences. And probably the first ones written here that are 100% true.

 

[Shqype]

Albanians feel they are victims of a Balkan conspiracy to deny their existence;

Well, I believe this statement speaks for itself:

Serbs-Bosniaks-Croats-Bulgars-Greeks-Turks doesn't matter who, but we all feel paranoid and xenophobic.

You forgot to mention the Albanians

 

[Le Violater]

all of this ongoing fighting between nations is just Ridiculous , saying the same things about each other and never ending the blame game. this is civ people, we mod to have fun and represent our respective cultures and sometimes show our nationalism.

as eastern europeans it has always been difficult for us to accept each other, living in the cultural crossroads of east and west with many different religions and a never ceasing border problem. it is shameful to be at each others thoats like this. what has happened has happened, the damage has been done. we must start to move on and look at each other with respect and not as just albanians, serbs, kosovars, bosniaks, croats, and greeks; but as eastern european brothers!

 

[Tunch Khan]

You forgot to mention the Albanians

So yes, Albanians are also paranoid as proven here by yourself.

 

[Shqype]

That was a joke man,

Albanians aren't paranoid, they just expect not to recieve justice from Europe (since they've been let down so many times in the past).

But, for argument's sake, with someone from Serbia quoting Bismarck's "there is no Albanian nation" how can you deny that at least some deny their existance?

 

[Sideral]

The Greek Muslims??!! We are Turkish.

My father came from Iskece (Xanthi, Western Thrace) to Turkey in 1952 (long after the population exchange).

Trying to prove Turkish people in Greece are actually Greek, Albanians in Kosovo are Serb is ridiculous and shameful.

Calm down please. Greeks who live in Turkey are Turkish citizens and Turks who live in Greece are Greek citizens. That's all.

As for Pomaks, they do exist and I have read from the International Human Rights page that they are from Bulgarian origin. I do not denny that there were Turks living in Greece, but not ALL muslims are of turkish origin.

P.S. And one funny detail to show how things are chaotic over here: my grandmother was born in Nisyros, a beautiful volcanic island in the Dodecanese complex; her papers mentioned that she was Turkish. A few years later her travelling documents mentioned that she was Italian; after the WWII she became Greek. Finaly she went to Montreal and became Canadian.
Question: How old was the captain of the ship that sailed her to America?

Take care, spring has arrived!!!

 

[Shqype]

Greeks who live in Turkey are Turkish citizens and Turks who live in Greece are Greek citizens. That's all.

Citizenship and ethnicity are two different things. No matter what is written on one's "documents" his ethnicity is not changed. For example, currently the region of Kosova is under UN Administration. So, does that make the Albanian Kosovars, or the Serbs, or the 'Roma,' or whoever else is there "United Nation-ian?"

 

[dinamo_18]

Citizenship and ethnicity are two different things. No matter what is written on one's "documents" his ethnicity is not changed. For example, currently the region of Kosova is under UN Administration. So, does that make the Albanian Kosovars, or the Serbs, or the 'Roma,' or whoever else is there "United Nation-ian?"

No because when you look at a map Kosovo is part of Serbia so the people living in it would be Serbian. Any guests also go by their own nationality like the Albanians. Same for the Hungarians in Vojvodina.

 

[Shqype]

You fail to understand that a map does not dictate ethnicity, neither do those that have "the power" or control in any place on earth.

Kosova is no longer under Serbian domination, it now under UN Administration, soon to be its own state ruled by Albanians.

As for the Kosovars being guests to Kosova, you've got it mixed up. You tell me, who is a guest: the one whose ancestors have lived there for milleniums, or the one who invaded and attempted to colonize it?

 

[Archduke Otto]

Congratulations guys, i've been writing my dissertation on the kosovo and the right to self-determination of the peoples.
Thanks to your heated discussion in here, i could sneak some first-hand arguments for it without actually having to interview that many people...

 

[Velja]

As for the Kosovars being guests to Kosova, you've got it mixed up. You tell me, who is a guest: the one whose ancestors have lived there for milleniums, or the one who invaded and attempted to colonize it?

You dont know what are you talking about. Serbs were majority on Kosovo since 9th century untill WWII. Albanians are colonizing it, by forcing Serbs to move out and by (illegal) emigrating from Albania.

 

[deo]

You dont know what are you talking about. Serbs were majority on Kosovo since 9th century untill WWII. Albanians are colonizing it, by forcing Serbs to move out and by (illegal) emigrating from Albania.

Belive what you want, there's no proof that serbs were majority and i wonder how Albanians Colonised Kosovo, did we came out of nowhere?

And BTW who was majority before the 9th century?