Anti-racist racism

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What's so compelling about being Israeli?

Don't even get me started.

You have to consider, though, that your sense of Jewishness has been developed in a post-1948 world. In a world without a Jewish state, and moreover without a state that contained a plurality of the global Jewish population (and a straight majority of the world's Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews), your sense of Jewishness might be quite different. First and foremost, I think, without the existence of a credibly Jewish state, the only claims that an individual can have to association with a global communion of Jews are either religious or aspirational, that one wishes to create a Jewish state, and the latter isn't very forceful to those who do not already subscribe to the Zionist program.

The problem with your Jewish nationalism, I think, is that you take a currently-existing Jewish nation- in that most Israelis think of Israel as "a Jewish nation"- and project it back onto history, assuming that historical Jews would have shared or even understood your sense of Jewish nationhood, and it's not obvious that this is the case.

No, I don't think so. Satmar and other anti-Zionist sects also view Jews as a single people. They just don't see the need for a country, preferring to live in the same way until the Messiah comes. I honestly believe that a Polish-born Jew from New York could board a ship to Egypt and be greeted as a compatriot by native Egyptian Jews, at any point in history.

The fact that this identity wasn't conterminous with a territory or community sort of throws a monkey wrench into our terminology. You might say that the 'Jewish Question' arose from an inability to describe the Jews politically. But it doesn't change the fact that, if not simply what an arbitrary group of people believe about themselves, then on what does the criteria for nationalism rely? Language? Soil? Religion isn't separate from identity, any more than either of those.
 
Maybe? I certainly get the impression that you'd get alone quite well with somebody like Walther Rathenau: enthusiastically German on the one hand, unapologetically Jewish on the other.

For some reason, I always find the interpretation of Hebrew identity by Benjamin Disraeli to be fairly closely to mine. Walther Rathenau is also fairly close, although he is an Anti-Zionist.
 
No, I don't think so. Satmar and other anti-Zionist sects also view Jews as a single people. They just don't see the need for a country, preferring to live in the same way until the Messiah comes. I honestly believe that a Polish-born Jew from New York could board a ship to Egypt and be greeted as a compatriot by native Egyptian Jews, at any point in history.

The fact that this identity wasn't conterminous with a territory or community sort of throws a monkey wrench into our terminology. You might say that the 'Jewish Question' arose from an inability to describe the Jews politically. But it doesn't change the fact that, if not simply what an arbitrary group of people believe about themselves, then on what does the criteria for nationalism rely? Language? Soil? Religion isn't separate from identity, any more than either of those.
"People", perhaps, but "nation"? That's a very different concept. Particularly in the Jewish case, the former is really about kinship, a sense of shared descent and consequent obligations of blood. Nationhood is about ongoing political community, a shared experience of civic life. When you say that a Polish Jew would be welcomed by Egyptian Jews, you're probably correct, but they'd welcome him into their community, rather than recognising him as part of it to begin with. He'd be like a long-lost cousin rather than a fellow citizen of a territorially-diffuse nation. This is what I mean when I say that you tend to project your own sense of Jewishness, which is structured in national terms, onto the past, to assume that historical sense of Jewishness were identical to your own, which isn't self-evident. It may not even be that they're always mutually-compatible.

For some reason, I always find the interpretation of Hebrew identity by Benjamin Disraeli to be fairly closely to mine. Walther Rathenau is also fairly close, although he is an Anti-Zionist.
Disraeli is certainly closer politically, but his relationship to his Jewishness was a bit unusual, because he was always trying to reconcile it with his Anglican faith. (As you say, he tended to prefer identification as a "Hebrew" with a "Jew".) Rathenau didn't have quite the same problem, because he was free to simply be a non-practising Jew.
 
"People", perhaps, but "nation"? That's a very different concept. Particularly in the Jewish case, the former is really about kinship, a sense of shared descent and consequent obligations of blood. Nationhood is about ongoing political community, a shared experience of civic life.

I think you expressed the opposite sentiment about what nationalism meant some time ago. You claimed it was the view that your fellow-nationalists were automatically compatriots.

When you say that a Polish Jew would be welcomed by Egyptian Jews, you're probably correct, but they'd welcome him into their community, rather than recognising him as part of it to begin with. He'd be like a long-lost cousin rather than a fellow citizen of a territorially-diffuse nation.

I doubt that very much. Jews saw their exile as a collective one, and believed that when the end times came sovereignty would revert to Israel (i.e. the people). Perhaps the above could describe the relationship between assimilationists and Orthodox, but never between Jews of different stock or language. The only such claims are made by nationalists who wanted to claim their Jews as Polish/Arab/German/whatever.

Even when resisting assimilation, Orthodox Jews always frame it as a way of abandoning the Jewish people, and wanting to become "like all other nations."
 
Disraeli is certainly closer politically, but his relationship to his Jewishness was a bit unusual, because he was always trying to reconcile it with his Anglican faith. (As you say, he tended to prefer identification as a "Hebrew" with a "Jew".) Rathenau didn't have quite the same problem, because he was free to simply be a non-practising Jew.

There is no difference between being of Jewish descent and of Hebrew descent. However, preferring Hebrew over 'Jewish' is a way to fight antisemitism; No one can deny the influence of Biblical Israel on Western arts and philosophy (through religion) so by calling Jews Hebrews instead, one can be made accutely aware that being antisemitic is tantamount to attempting to destroy the foundations of Western civilisation.
 
Seeing as antisemitism was a continuing strand of that same Western civilization til well past 1945, that is quite a statement. Perhaps Western civilization has a self destructive trait?
 
"People", perhaps, but "nation"? That's a very different concept. Particularly in the Jewish case, the former is really about kinship, a sense of shared descent and consequent obligations of blood. Nationhood is about ongoing political community, a shared experience of civic life. When you say that a Polish Jew would be welcomed by Egyptian Jews, you're probably correct, but they'd welcome him into their community, rather than recognising him as part of it to begin with. He'd be like a long-lost cousin rather than a fellow citizen of a territorially-diffuse nation. This is what I mean when I say that you tend to project your own sense of Jewishness, which is structured in national terms, onto the past, to assume that historical sense of Jewishness were identical to your own, which isn't self-evident. It may not even be that they're always mutually-compatible

That might not have been true at all times - certainly, I imagine that the early Zionists would have regarded the difference between a Polish Jew and an Egyptian Jew in the same way as German nationalists would have regarded a German living in 'France' and one living in 'Denmark' (quotation marks, of course, because they would have thought of both as living in 'Germany').
 
I think you expressed the opposite sentiment about what nationalism meant some time ago. You claimed it was the view that your fellow-nationalists were automatically compatriots.
I'm not sure what you mean? "Compatriot" just means "co-national", and while I guess the derivation from patrie might additionally imply some sort of kinship, there's no reason to think that it expresses anything more than a very loose fictive kinship.

I doubt that very much. Jews saw their exile as a collective one, and believed that when the end times came sovereignty would revert to Israel (i.e. the people). Perhaps the above could describe the relationship between assimilationists and Orthodox, but never between Jews of different stock or language. The only such claims are made by nationalists who wanted to claim their Jews as Polish/Arab/German/whatever.

Even when resisting assimilation, Orthodox Jews always frame it as a way of abandoning the Jewish people, and wanting to become "like all other nations."
You're conflating community and collectivity, I think, playing on the fact that pre-1948 Jews didn't always make these distinctions explicit. Pre-modern Jews certainly had a much more developed sense of collective self-identity than most peoples, and that self-identity evidently lent itself well to the development of a national conciousness (particularly when supplied with an attendant state), but it doesn't follow that the identity was a national identity to begin with, or even a national identity-in-waiting. There was nothing inevitable about the ascendency of a Zionist national identification among global Jewry.

I mean, it would be a hell of a thing if the Jews had developed a modern bourgeois national self-conception in the iron age, when it took everybody else until the eighteenth century to produce even a rough sketch? You'd think that somebody would have noticed. ;)

There is no difference between being of Jewish descent and of Hebrew descent. However, preferring Hebrew over 'Jewish' is a way to fight antisemitism; No one can deny the influence of Biblical Israel on Western arts and philosophy (through religion) so by calling Jews Hebrews instead, one can be made accutely aware that being antisemitic is tantamount to attempting to destroy the foundations of Western civilisation.
That's the trick, though, that to call oneself is "Hebrew" is to invoke the ancient Levant rather than any contemporary or recent Jewish experience. To say that you're a Hebrew might literally read as saying that you are a Jew, but by emphasising ancient rather than immediate ancestry, it creates a certain distance from that identity. It's by no means a rejection of one's Jewishness, but it can place a certain qualifying inflection on one's identification with it.

That might not have been true at all times - certainly, I imagine that the early Zionists would have regarded the difference between a Polish Jew and an Egyptian Jew in the same way as German nationalists would have regarded a German living in 'France' and one living in 'Denmark' (quotation marks, of course, because they would have thought of both as living in 'Germany').
Yes, but Zionists were by definition nationalists, so that they saw Jewishness in national terms doesn't mean that they were representative of Jews. Certainly the Bund were very sceptical of any idea of global Jewish nationhood, identifying their Jewish explicitly with the Yiddish-speaking Jewish culture of Central and Eastern Europe.

Besides, I'm not sure if early Zionists would think like that, because early Zionism was self-consciously a nation-building project as much as or even more than a project of national unification. That's why modern Hebrew became such a touchstone for them, it represented a way of superseding the linguistic diversity of actual Jewish life and creating a new Hebrew-language civic space: literally, creating a Hebrew nation. The early Zionist intellectuals were quite sophisticated people, not just Jews who wanted a Wagnerian mythology of their own, and they understood better than their ideological descendants that nationhood and national being is shot through with complexities that don't always fit easy national narratives.
 
Ah, good point - so both Jews were equally 'ripe for inclusion' in the Jewish nation of which they were not yet really members.
 
I'm not sure what you mean? "Compatriot" just means "co-national", and while I guess the derivation from patrie might additionally imply some sort of kinship, there's no reason to think that it expresses anything more than a very loose fictive kinship.

Compatriot was the wrong word. You said that that modern nationalism was defined as the idea of all members of a nation being fellows, without regard to station or class. I think.

I mean, it would be a hell of a thing if the Jews had developed a modern bourgeois national self-conception in the iron age, when it took everybody else until the eighteenth century to produce even a rough sketch? You'd think that somebody would have noticed. ;)

I'm unfamiliar with yer commie jargon.

That's the trick, though, that to call oneself is "Hebrew" is to invoke the ancient Levant rather than any contemporary or recent Jewish experience. To say that you're a Hebrew might literally read as saying that you are a Jew, but by emphasising ancient rather than immediate ancestry, it creates a certain distance from that identity. It's by no means a rejection of one's Jewishness, but it can place a certain qualifying inflection on one's identification with it.

Or it's mealy-mouthed homage to Jewish culture ('Hebrew' culture lol), in an attempt to retain some self-respect.

Yes, but Zionists were by definition nationalists, so that they saw Jewishness in national terms doesn't mean that they were representative of Jews.

No one claims they were. I get the impression from organizations like Lubavitch that they simply regard Israel as a particularly large Jewish village in a global community. They even talk about Yiddish as 'the Jewish language,' despite their outreach to Sephardim. You could say, perhaps, it's like how certain classes in a country relate to others- with a certain amount of cultural condescension.
 
No, I don't think so. Satmar and other anti-Zionist sects also view Jews as a single people. They just don't see the need for a country, preferring to live in the same way until the Messiah comes. I honestly believe that a Polish-born Jew from New York could board a ship to Egypt and be greeted as a compatriot by native Egyptian Jews, at any point in history.

I honestly believe that a race of shapeshifting aliens called the Gluahiri built the Pyramids of Egypt, Mexico, and Sumer, and that this race of aliens is still controlling the world via a shadowy cabal of shapeshifters whose members include Barack Obama, Kim Jong Un, and Netanyahu.

No, I have no citations or proof of my absurdly outlandish claims. Why do you ask?

The fact that this identity wasn't conterminous with a territory or community sort of throws a monkey wrench into our terminology. You might say that the 'Jewish Question' arose from an inability to describe the Jews politically. But it doesn't change the fact that, if not simply what an arbitrary group of people believe about themselves, then on what does the criteria for nationalism rely? Language? Soil? Religion isn't separate from identity, any more than either of those.

Nationalism simply relies on the idea that you and whoever else you decide to include into your tribe is better than everyone else, because reasons.

Remember kiddies: separate but equal is inherently unequal.

There is no difference between being of Jewish descent and of Hebrew descent.

Not remotely true. Pretty much every human alive except for isolated groups in the Americas who have not interbred with Old World peoples are descended from the ancient Hebrews. Humanity's most recent common ancestor lived far too recently for this not to be the case.

However, preferring Hebrew over 'Jewish' is a way to fight antisemitism; No one can deny the influence of Biblical Israel on Western arts and philosophy (through religion) so by calling Jews Hebrews instead, one can be made accutely aware that being antisemitic is tantamount to attempting to destroy the foundations of Western civilisation.

Wow, this is some spectacular mental gymnastics right here. No doubt anti-semitism is a bad thing, but if you think you can reason with anti-Semites, especially with logic as spurious as this, I have a bridge to sell you.

I'm unfamiliar with yer commie jargon.

NATIONALISM NO EXIST B4 1700

DOES MURICAN PATRIOT UNDERSTAND NOW? GOOD PATRIOT, GOOD!
 
I hope the person above isn't expecting a response, or some sort of social affirmation of his cleverness.
 
There was no cleverness, I'm simply rehashing common sense. If that seems "clever" to you, perhaps your standards are too low; but I suppose a butter knife is more likely to regard a butcher's knife as sharp than a sword is. It's all about perspective, ultimately.
 
Not remotely true. Pretty much every human alive except for isolated groups in the Americas who have not interbred with Old World peoples are descended from the ancient Hebrews. Humanity's most recent common ancestor lived far too recently for this not to be the case.
It's crazy how closely related 99.999999+% of humans are. As recent as just over 2000 years, and probably not more than 9000.
 
That might not have been true at all times - certainly, I imagine that the early Zionists would have regarded the difference between a Polish Jew and an Egyptian Jew in the same way as German nationalists would have regarded a German living in 'France' and one living in 'Denmark' (quotation marks, of course, because they would have thought of both as living in 'Germany').

Given the distance between Poland and Egypt, it is more like a Volga German and an Alsace German.
 
Hebrew was always their religious holy language. In daily life they spoke other languages.

Most of Volga Germans also spoke Russian. And not all of them were adherents of the same religion.

========================

By the way, saying that Elsässerditsch is a "common language" with - say - Schläsche Sproache, is a huge exaggeration.
 
Hebrew was always their religious language. In daily life they spoke other languages.

Most of Volga Germans also spoke Russian, by the way.

Right, their religious language, whereas Russian was an every day language amongst the Volga Germans. No Jew ever spoke Hebrew casually with another Jew before; hell, most Jews didn't even know Hebrew fluently, only those who were rabbis and scholars of the Bible did.

You're basically arguing that an Italian could wander into Poland at any time in the past couple hundred years and get along swimmingly with the locals because of their shared linguistic experience of Latin. They're both Catholics, they must speak Latin right?
 
Yes, Russian was a language of Volga Germans. And no, Russian was not a common language of all Germans.

So Germans also did not have a common language.

Not to mention that lects such as for example Elsässerditsch and Schläsche Sproache are NOT mutually intelligible.

They're both Catholics

This is called stereotyping and generalization. Not all Poles and Italians were Catholics.

As for Latin - only most educated Catholics learned Latin, while all male Jews learned Hebrew. Big difference.

You're basically arguing that an Italian could wander into Poland at any time in the past couple hundred years and get along swimmingly with the locals because of their shared linguistic experience of Latin.

Daniel Defoe had such an experience when he was in Poland, but I assume that he talked in Latin mostly with nobility:

"Qui Latine loquitur, ab una parte Polonia usque ad alteram ire potest et in itinere tam sicut domi se credere potest, tamquam in terra illa natus esset. Quae Fortuna! Quidnam ageret homo nobilis, qui Angliam permigrare deberet nulliua alius linguae peritus quam Latinae!"

In English:

"Who only knows Latin can go across the whole of Poland from one side to the other one just like he was at his own home, just like he was born there. So great happiness! I wish a traveler in England could travel without knowing any other language than Latin!"

I don't think he bothered to talk with average rural or urban dwellers. This rather refers to proficiency in Latin of nobles and rich burghers.
 
Yes, Russian was a language of Volga Germans. And no, Russian was not a common language of all Germans.

So Germans also did not have a common language.

Not to mention that lects such as for example Elsässerditsch and Schläsche Sproache are NOT mutually intelligible.

If mental gymnastics was an Olympic sport, you would win gold every time. The overwhelming majority of Germans did have a common language, unlike the Jews.

But keep pointing out minor exceptions and employing egregiously fallacious logic ("some Germans spoke Russian, therefore no one spoke German! Yay!"). Whatever keeps your cogs turning I guess.

This is called stereotyping and generalization. Not all Poles and Italians were Catholics.

Hahahahaha, don't make me laugh. This is far less of a generalization than the claim that all Jews spoke Hebrew, or worse, that Polish Jews from New York and Egyptian Jews could get along like ol' pals.

As for Latin - only most educated Christians learned Latin, while all male Jews learned Hebrew. Big difference.

Ah so we have a concession, for starters- women are out of the picture. Further remove children and we are already talking about a fairly small section of the Jewish population.

But then consider the fact that you essentially fabricated this claim- no, nothing even approaching a majority of male Jews were taught Hebrew. Only educated Jews were, as with Latin.

Further consider that Jews were scattered across the world, and as happens in such instances, language changes. While the grammar would've no doubt remained mostly the same because of the centralizing and standardizing impact of the Torah et. al., the pronunciation would've wildly differed, with Polish Jews reading Hebrew with Polish phonemes, Persian Jews reading it with Persian phonemes, and so on. This is essentially wha we see with Latin, after all. Who says Ee-oo-lee-oos Kais-aar after all?

EDIT: Regarding your inclusion of the Defoe quote, which was not there initially: This is precisely what I'm arguing. Rich, educated Jews could probably get along decently enough, but that's a far cry from claiming "Jews everywhere had a common language."

Seriously, that claim is so spurious and just so damn incorrect that I am legitimately flabbergasted that we are even discussing it.
 
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