Apollo Difficulty Concerns

[PeterDR]

I have been playing Civilization since the day Civilization I came out. Except for Colonization and Revolution I played through all Civilization games with great enjoyment. When I play a Civilization game I want to be challenged, I want to be able to survive against all odds. Therefore I naturally go for the hardest difficulty available, Apollo in this case.

However, Apollo difficulty is not as impossibly hard to beat as claimed by Firaxis. When playing Deity difficulty in Civilization V you are always the underdog. Like a juggler, you are trying hard to keep all the balls in the air. You cannot get behind in science, nor can you neglect your army (since you will be backstabbed multiple times). You have to make some hard choices, choices that will determine the outcome of the game.

Apollo difficulty in Beyond Earth is another story though. In the games I have played I could build up my empire in all safety, knowing the other 'states' would not even bother attacking me. And the one time I was attacked, AI's stupidity made the fight hardly noteworthy. All he did was sending loads of armors across a small corridor to be slaugthered by my two men army.

It makes me wonder what major advantages my opponents receive. They probably have way more health, but in contrary to Civilization V's happiness, that hardly matters. Due to internal trade routes my cities where just as big or even bigger than his, whereas my cities where usually pitiful compared to other civilizations in Civilization V. Scientifically there are also minor differences between me and the other civilizations. In Civilization V you sometimes had to withhold enemy armors with your musketman, but in Beyond Earth I usually find myself in a position I have better or at least eqally strong units.

What I'm trying to say is: I have a hard time finding a purpose in this game if even the 'hardest' difficulty can't let me sweat. I am no elite player or anything remotely close, Beyond Earth simply does not offer the oppertunity for players to get really challenged. I want to lose most of my games and take great pleasure in the games I win, because I had to get to hell and back to snatch that victory. Please Firaxis, give me back my challenge and I will remain loyal in silence.

Sorry for my wall of text, but I wonder if you guys have similar feelings. If you have played Apollo difficulty, does it feel impossibly hard to you?

 

[Dasta]

There are already like 5 of these threads. All being actively posted in.

 

[Gort]

Internal trade route spam makes Apollo difficulty completely manageable. The AI doesn't know how good they are, so doesn't spam them. The player does, so has an easy time with quadruple the production and food the AI generates.

 

[CreepyD]

I'm playing with the balance mod (1 nerfed trade route per city) and I'm not having problems on Apollo, it doesn't feel any different to Gemini tbh.
I was just attacked by the Slavic's, about 6 armors and 4 support rangers - I trounced them and had them capitulate gifting me one of their 3 large cities.
Will see how it goes later in the game.

 

[m15a]

However, Apollo difficulty is not as impossibly hard to beat as claimed by Firaxis.

Can you provide a quote for where they made this claim? I'm assuming you're exaggerating.

 

[Acken]

Can you provide a quote for where they made this claim? I'm assuming you're exaggerating.

I guess it's reference to the game tooltip. Apollo: Impossibly hard.

 

[Browd]

When you setup a new game, and select Apollo, the tooltip says "Impossibly Hard. The AI players receive significant advantages to improve their play."

 

[civictor]

When you setup a new game, and select Apollo, the tooltip says "Impossibly Hard. The AI players receive significant advantages to improve their play."

I checked the database to see what tech advantages the AI gets:

Vostok gets Pioneering.

Gemini adds Planetary Survey.

Soyuz adds Engineering.

Apollo adds Chemistry.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm playing with the balance mod (1 nerfed trade route per city) and I'm not having problems on Apollo, it doesn't feel any different to Gemini tbh.
I was just attacked by the Slavic's, about 6 armors and 4 support rangers - I trounced them and had them capitulate gifting me one of their 3 large cities.
Will see how it goes later in the game.

I noticed a difference with the trade route nerf mod (which I consider required for decent play...check it out if you haven't already, a small change that makes quite a big difference in gameplay).

Apollo difficulty the AI finally had a tech advantage over me, and trying to fight off superior units is tricky even if the AI's combat abilities are crap.

 

[Browd]

I checked the database to see what tech advantages the AI gets:

Vostok gets Pioneering.

Gemini adds Planetary Survey.

Soyuz adds Engineering.

Apollo adds Chemistry.

The advantages go beyond free techs. Leaving aside the delayed arrival boni, each AI plays on the Handicap_Ai_Default difficulty (very similar to the same difficulty in CiV BNW), with further boni based on game difficulty as in CiV.

The most notable difference between Apollo and BNW Deity is that the Apollo AI starts with 1 additional explorer (2 explorers in total) and 2 combat rovers, while the BNW Deity AI starts with 2 extra warriors (3 total), 2 workers and 1 extra settler. The lack of a starting settler and starting workers are, IMO, the main reasons why the Apollo AI is not nearly as formidable as the BNW Deity AI.

 

[PeterDR]

The advantages go beyond free techs. Leaving aside the delayed arrival boni, each AI plays on the Handicap_Ai_Default difficulty (very similar to the same difficulty in CiV BNW), with further boni based on game difficulty as in CiV.

The most notable difference between Apollo and BNW Deity is that the Apollo AI starts with 1 additional explorer (2 explorers in total) and 2 combat rovers, while the BNW Deity AI starts with 2 extra warriors (3 total), 2 workers and 1 extra settler. The lack of a starting settler and starting workers are, IMO, the main reasons why the Apollo AI is not nearly as formidable as the BNW Deity AI.

Thank you for providing this new insight. This does explain why expansion is usually a lot faster in BNW. However, I think the high profit for internal trade routes and the lack of AI aggressiveness are still the main reason for being able to cope with Apollo difficulty without to much hassle. Moreover, expansion is not punished harshly through health as it was with happiness in BNW. I can expand at free will, without being worried about negative health penalties.

I noticed a difference with the trade route nerf mod (which I consider required for decent play...check it out if you haven't already, a small change that makes quite a big difference in gameplay).

Apollo difficulty the AI finally had a tech advantage over me, and trying to fight off superior units is tricky even if the AI's combat abilities are crap.

I will definitely try that out, thank you for the tip. When I started my Apollo game (which I finished for the achievement) that mod was not available yet unfortunately. Hopefully there will also be a way to increase AI aggressiveness, I would like to survive a couple of hard wars to feel some sense of achievement.

Can you provide a quote for where they made this claim? I'm assuming you're exaggerating.

Others already answered your question, but it is stated literally in the description of the difficulty.

 

[Browd]

There is that.

 

[Breezin]

I agree.

I'm a prince/king guy on Civ V. When I play deity, usually don't compete. However, yesterday I tried a game on Apollo, in fact it was my second game, and I was 4th out of 6 players without even knowing what I was doing. I was able to easily fight off an attack by the Slavic Civ who was the most powerful.

I quit the game after winning the war because I wanted to try another Civ.

 

[cazaderonus]

OKay. just finished my 1st game. I picked Soyouz mode.

On Civ V i could win on deity, but it was never a sure thing. So i d say i know Advanced Civ strat and micro management.

And.... i crushed the AI like i ve rarely done it on Civ. And i didnt have a spectacular starting point.

Protean world, Franco Iberia. Crushed ARC and KP in 25 turns each at different stages. ARC because they attacked first round turn 85. KP because i was just too strong not to do it.

Ended with half the map, around 13/15 cities at 15 pop+. Was producing 550 culture, 350 gold and 900 science per turn. WIth only 1/3 external trade routes.

I build 4/5 world wonders. I had full prosperity, full knowledge.

SO yeah, next is appollo, but tbh. I think i m gonna crush them the same way.

 

[Browd]

The advantages go beyond free techs. Leaving aside the delayed arrival boni, each AI plays on the Handicap_Ai_Default difficulty (very similar to the same difficulty in CiV BNW), with further boni based on game difficulty as in CiV.

The most notable difference between Apollo and BNW Deity is that the Apollo AI starts with 1 additional explorer (2 explorers in total) and 2 combat rovers, while the BNW Deity AI starts with 2 extra warriors (3 total), 2 workers and 1 extra settler. The lack of a starting settler and starting workers are, IMO, the main reasons why the Apollo AI is not nearly as formidable as the BNW Deity AI.

Just to update this: Post-patch the Apollo AI now receives 1 starting colonist, 2 workers, and 1 more defensive unit, in addition to the 2 defensive units and 2 explorer units that it received pre-patch.

 

[Makavcio]

I don't really enjoy deity/apollo difficulty since CivIV. It feels like cheating because you are not beating the AI but adjusting your game to its shortcomings. You are trying to con the conman instead of beating him at a fair game.

CivBE is ofc a completely different thing. As I have already mentioned it in many threads, an experienced Civ player can easily win his 1st game on this difficulty setting. My dog managed to do it too and it's hard to operate the game with paws.

I bet it will soon change but instead of getting a more interesting game, we'll be offered an even less exciting experience against an opponent whose clumsy cheating will be even more blatant, most likely to the point of a farce.

Civ's AI for CivVI must be built from scratch.

 

[Xenotitan]

Just to update this: Post-patch the Apollo AI now receives 1 starting colonist, 2 workers, and 1 more defensive unit, in addition to the 2 defensive units and 2 explorer units that it received pre-patch.

I wouldn't call the rover a defensive unit post-patch. It doesn't get fortify or rough terrain bonuses while defending.

 

[Browd]

I'm just using the terms used in the XML, not making a value judgment about the quality of the units the AI gets.

 

[Gort]

Any chance you could compile the difficulty modifiers into an easily-read format?