Are there any general build order recommendations?

[Ieldra]

Yes, the answer is "It depends", but I'm always facing the same decision:

I start with building a Scout. I don't need more than one since on Marathon pacing, it has enough time to explore everywhere that matters before I must make decisions regarding those things.

When the Scout is done, I haven't researched anything yet and unless I have a really sh*tty starting position, I need culture more than improved tiles at this point and can't improve any luxuries yet, so a Monument is next.

Next, I have Pottery (which I tend to research first now by default unless I have a compelling reason to go elsewhere), so I have to decide between Shrine, Granary, Worker and Settler. If I play a religious civ, the Shrine goes first (or maybe not if I have an alternative faith source) but if I don't, what then? Assuming I'll have to hard-build the first settler, when is it most advantageous to build it? If I build the Granary first I won't profit from it while the settler is building so delay it? Should I build a Granary at all at this time if I don't have tiles that get an extra bonus from it? 2 food is nothing to scoff at after all? Should I build up my economy until I can purchase a settler to avoid having zero growth in my capital while it's building?

And most importantly, when should I start producing military units and caravans? Caravans basically take forever to build this early but they're important for a early healthy economy (unless you beeline sailing in which case Cargo Ships take two times forever to build).

Every single thing I can build is such a significant investment in time that making a wrong decision can cripple my game in the long run. The path I'd take intuitively is "population first (Granary?), then production (Worker?), everything else follows" but even with that in mind I have a hard time judging which build order will result in the best start. Especially the timing of building the first settler is difficult. I guess if you start with Liberty, you could wait until you get the free settler and reduced cost for building them, but what if you start with Tradition?

Any recommendations? I'm playing as the Ottomans on Emperor difficulty (first try) at the moment, but I'm asking for more general advice. I'm also not aiming for a domination victory but would like to keep my options open otherwise.

 

[Carl5872]

First of all I'm glad there are other people who can appreciate starting templates that you can modify. To just dismiss questions as "well it depends so there is no optimal build order" and leave your answer at that is no better than not giving an answer.

I always play marathon and huge maps, so take that into consideration with my recommendation.

My standard build order is opening with a scout ALWAYS. I always research pottery first. When the scout is done, I will start on a monument, but switch to a shrine as soon as pottery finishes. The reason for this is that pantheons and religions are so competitive, if you don't start right away, you won't get a good one. Once the shrine is done, I finish up the monument, and go into a granary for growth, and the ability to send food caravans. After that I will build a warrior, or archer (if I found or got around to researching archery by then). The first 700 gold I got would be spent on a worker. You mentioned playing as Ottomans, so if I was on the coast, I would use the next 500 gold I have (again this is marathon) to buy a trireme, and the next 540 to buy a workboat (obviously this depends on being on the coast with coastal resources).

At this point, capital should be well developed,so I usually will try to expand. I will build another archer/warrior, followed by a settler. New city will then build a shrine followed by a library (note I usually go tradition, so I would have a monument from the social policy). Capital then builds a caravan to send food to the new city, and another warrior/archer to protect the caravan. Capital then builds another worker followed by an archer then settler then library.

Third city will then make a shrine and library. Capital will make a 2nd caravan to boost up the 3rd city with food. If you have the gold, buy a 3rd worker, if not build one. When all 3 cities have libraries, go for the national college. That is my ideal, uninterrupted opening.

 

[Ieldra]

Thanks for the answer, that's very useful. I can adapt to my starting situation and longer-term priorities from that. I never thought of switching production while a building is still incomplete, but the reason is compelling. Also, getting a caravan that early is surprising.

One follow-up question: you said "I will buy another archer/warrior, followed by a settler". Do you actually buy the settler, i.e. wait until you have enough gold to purchase, or do you?build it?

(Hehe, the gold costs appear familiar to me since I've also been playing Marathon games on huge maps. It appears to become a pattern.)

 

[klaskeren]

on marathon, i would definately build 3 units early, weather that be 2 scouts 1 warrior or 1 scout 2 warrors, on marthon, units are SO good.

 

[Moriarte]

It's been a while since i played marathon, however i do play Huge all the time. It depends on your personal philosophies, of course, but the best possible course of action would be: scout, scout. A scout will find you a culture ruin, a scout will steal you workers from civilizations and city states. So basically, a scout replaces a monument (for tradition start) and a worker (since you will snatch few). Now you can focus on shrine, granary, settlers and other important stuff. I would build settlers after shrine, granary and a couple of archers, same as i do on standard speed. Reason for that is the amount of time required to produce one. I would start on settlers as soon as i am size 5 or something, and have a couple of improved mines. Otherwise, well, gonna take forever. After that i'd probably make another archer and then a caravan. Libraries and national college would be the next goal.

I'd also strive to buy one settler with cash. If you have some.

 

[Resipsa]

on marathon, i would definately build 3 units early, weather that be 2 scouts 1 warrior or 1 scout 2 warrors, on marthon, units are SO good.

^This, Barb camps spawn at a constant rate. If you are asking for a generic template; then
Tradition SP to finisher take Growth as third SP if you aren't building settlers, Monarchy if you are but its okay if you take growth anyway. 2 points in whatever you want and then Rationalism til Ideologies.
BO: Scout, Scout, Shrine, Granary (if your have any deer, wheat, bananas), caravan, Settler, Settler, Setter, Library, Archer X4.
In your expansions build either walls if necessary or shrines if you want a religion but don't have a religious pantheon then Library.

After that choose your own adventure.

 

[Ieldra]

Thanks for all the recommendations.

One thing I don't understand is the rationale for building two scouts at the start. Yes, ruins are extremely valuable. This time I was lucky - I guess at least, don't know the chances - and got to explore eight ruins with 2xculture, 2xtech, 1xgold, 1xfaith and 2xpopulation, but all except one were in the first 28 turns when I couldn't have finished a second Scout (remember this is Marathon), and the last one I snatched away from a neighbour by one turn, which means the second Scout couldn't have got me that either. Which illustrates the problem: usually at the time when I'd be finished building the second Scout (which is turn 28-9 or so on Marathon, all the ruins are gone, either explored by me or by some neighbour. So why another Scout?

Also, I actually built an additional archer early in one game, only to have it stand around doing nothing but patrolling around my capital for tens of rounds at a time because barbarian camps refused to spawn. So yeah, I do need at least one additional unit early, but not *that* early. Do barbarians really spawn at a constant rate? It does not appear that way.

 

[Resipsa]

Thanks for all the recommendations.

One thing I don't understand is the rationale for building two scouts at the start. Yes, ruins are extremely valuable. This time I was lucky - I guess at least, don't know the chances - and got to explore eight ruins with 2xculture, 2xtech, 1xgold, 1xfaith and 2xpopulation, but all except one were in the first 28 turns when I couldn't have finished a second Scout (remember this is Marathon), and the last one I snatched away from a neighbour by one turn, which means the second Scout couldn't have got me that either. Which illustrates the problem: usually at the time when I'd be finished building the second Scout (which is turn 28-9 or so on Marathon, all the ruins are gone, either explored by me or by some neighbour. So why another Scout?

Also, I actually built an additional archer early in one game, only to have it stand around doing nothing but patrolling around my capital for tens of rounds at a time because barbarian camps refused to spawn. So yeah, I do need at least one additional unit early, but not *that* early. Do barbarians really spawn at a constant rate? It does not appear that way.

They spawn at a constant rate but they only appear in Fog and only at the rate by which camps are disbursed. If you aren't disbursing the camps they won't spawn.

You are in serious need of playing Songhai on Marathon. Open tradition and then drop a point in Honor and go around and kill barb camps, I have rush bought three settlers in a marathon game prior to turn 90 (On marathon) that's equivalent to turn 30 on standard speed. That equates to a ridiculously strong start, and everything else Songhai gets is gravy on top of your fast start.

 

[Ieldra]

I see. I'll get around to playing Songhai eventually. War cultures are usually my lowest priority but that does sound appealing. The thing is, such things still depend on barbarian camps being present and reachable. Which sometimes happens but not reliably in any way, especially if you play with smaller landmasses as I do - this time I have one within 12 tiles of my capital in every direction but the sea I can't cross yet, and one other near a city-state about 25 tiles to the south in a jungle behind a mountain range. I won't waste my time sending units there.

While I'm at it: I found 50 faith in a ruin and could start a pantheon before I finished my first shrine. My standard selection (God King) was gone so I chose Earth Mother instead, giving me +2 faith for the two salt patches I already have (they don't need to be improved to give the faith bonus, nice), with another two of them in near expansion reach, and with iron being usually not too rare I am hoping for more. I'd rather have culture than more faith but I thought getting a religion early with a good belief selection will eventually result in a higher culture bonus. I'm fairly confident in my choice but just in case I'm thinking wrong, tell me.

 

[Resipsa]

I see. I'll get around to playing Songhai eventually. War cultures are usually my lowest priority but that does sound appealing. The thing is, such things still depend on barbarian camps being present and reachable. Which sometimes happens but not reliably in any way, especially if you play with smaller landmasses as I do - this time I have one within 12 tiles of my capital in every direction but the sea I can't cross yet, and one other near a city-state about 25 tiles to the south in a jungle behind a mountain range. I won't waste my time sending units there.

If you aren't playing a standard map; (Pangaea, Continents, Fractal, Small Continents)
you should really preface your post with . . . "I'm playing on Oceania", or whatever. If you only have 12 tiles that can be reached without embarking hell I'd skip the early scouts too.

 

[Ieldra]

If you aren't playing a standard map; (Pangaea, Continents, Fractal, Small Continents)
you should really preface your post with . . . "I'm playing on Oceania", or whatever. If you only have 12 tiles that can be reached without embarking hell I'd skip the early scouts too.

I said I'm playing "small continents", which means I usually have a significant expanse of land around since the game has so far insisted on placing me on the largest landmass. Still, since I'm usually on the coast that means there's one direction I can ignore completely for early exploration. At the time when I can embark, my first scout is back from its tour and can continue there.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

I wouldn't build two scouts unless I was playing something Pangea-ish, Fractal, or maybe Continents (assuming standard map). Small Continents? One scout should be plenty.

I still wonder whether it's better to start with a Warrior if you aren't surrounded by trees -- on Immortal+ at least, for worker mugging and for better CS quest completion later on.

 

[beetle]

I have been trying to improve my Immortal game, mostly by following Tabarnak’s (GnK) Tradition’s four cities opening.

The biggest change for me, from my default style, is having the first worker much higher on the build queue. It really seems to make a big difference! I was also over prioritizing the granary for the capital, and not emphasizing early units enough, but the worker thing has been the most noticeable.

His recommend build order is scout > worker > shrine > warrior (3 or 4) > settler > archer > archer

Liberty would need monument, prolly after shrine.

 

[Resipsa]

I have been trying to improve my Immortal game, mostly by following Tabarnak’s (GnK) Tradition’s four cities opening.

The biggest change for me, from my default style, is having the first worker much higher on the build queue. It really seems to make a big difference! I was also over prioritizing the granary for the capital, and not emphasizing early units enough, but the worker thing has been the most noticeable.

His recommend build order is scout > worker > shrine > warrior (3 or 4) > settler > archer > archer

Liberty would need monument, prolly after shrine.

Its somewhat implied that if you don't put a worker in your build order that you are going to steal it ASAP. If you are isolated I'd skip the scouts and build the worker. Keep in mind that 4 cities opening is for GnK not BNW although most of it still applies your settlers will have to be hard built, mostly.

Also I'm not going to argue with OP but I'm pretty certain you didn't specify small continents.

 

[azholichp]

I would start on settlers as soon as i am size 5 or something, and have a couple of improved mines. Otherwise, well, gonna take forever.

Wouldn't this be too late for the Deity normal size map? If I wait that long, many times the AIs take all the valuable land. I have watched couple of your youtube videos (Boudicca and Nobunaga) and saw that late settlers indeed worked, but I felt that it was only viable because your starting point was somewhat isolated. If you find that AIs are nearer, do you try to get the settler out faster? Like getting the settler out in 4 or even 3 pop, before granary or archers?

 

[tschukki]

Archers are so much better than warriors in the early game. Ever tried to take out a hand axe in a camp with a single warrior?

My first few 100 hours of civ i have usually delayed archery (and always went pottery-mining), but now i have come to prioritize it and usually tech pottery first and archery second. The build order in >80% of my tradition games is scout-scout-shrine-archer and take it from there.

With marathon/huge i have very limited experience. The increased number of barbs should make early archers even more important.

The further builds after scout-scout-shrine-archer and before the settlers are highly circumstancial.

Having early workers would be another priority. Sometimes you have two of them by turn 10, in that case there is no need to build one. Sometimes you have none by turn 20 and no gold to buy one, in that case a worker would most times be the 5th build, with no barbs around your capitol maybe even the fourth. I dont like to build them because there is other urgent stuff to do, but in some scenarios you just dont get around it.

Wheat/deer in the capitol should make you inclined to build a granary before the first settler.
A neighbouring civ asks for an early caravan because of the science boost.
Lots of barb camps near city states - more archers.

Another factor is how urgently you need to settle in the best spots before they are taken. I guess that the larger the map the less often this is a problem.

Where i struggle is the question how important it is to have your settlers out early. Sometimes I want to build a granary AND a caravan AND two more archers because the circumstances seem to demand it, but that would result in very late settlers, very late national college etc. It depends, I guess

 

[Carl5872]

Thanks for the answer, that's very useful. I can adapt to my starting situation and longer-term priorities from that. I never thought of switching production while a building is still incomplete, but the reason is compelling. Also, getting a caravan that early is surprising.

One follow-up question: you said "I will buy another archer/warrior, followed by a settler". Do you actually buy the settler, i.e. wait until you have enough gold to purchase, or do you?build it?

(Hehe, the gold costs appear familiar to me since I've also been playing Marathon games on huge maps. It appears to become a pattern.)

I meant BUILD another archer/warrior followed by a settler.

 

[Ieldra]

Its somewhat implied that if you don't put a worker in your build order that you are going to steal it ASAP. If you are isolated I'd skip the scouts and build the worker. Keep in mind that 4 cities opening is for GnK not BNW although most of it still applies your settlers will have to be hard built, mostly.

Also I'm not going to argue with OP but I'm pretty certain you didn't specify small continents.

Sorry, indeed I didn't. That was another thread.

As for that 4-city-opening, I take it that you'll need that much military if you play on Immortal and up? Because for barbarian hunting I've never needed more than one melee and one ranged unit unless I started in a forest and could only move about at a snail's pace. I can understand putting the worker early, but produce three or more warriors after that before you do anything else? Doesn't that hurt you in city development?

 

[Moriarte]

Wouldn't this be too late for the Deity normal size map? If I wait that long, many times the AIs take all the valuable land. I have watched couple of your youtube videos (Boudicca and Nobunaga) and saw that late settlers indeed worked, but I felt that it was only viable because your starting point was somewhat isolated. If you find that AIs are nearer, do you try to get the settler out faster? Like getting the settler out in 4 or even 3 pop, before granary or archers?

Marathon is a different beast. Easier. Yes, if you're surrounded, you better go for liberty and quick CB army. Or, if you're convinced in your diplo skills you can go for size 3-4 settler, send quick caravan and grow peacefully. Going tradition can work too, if you're good at snatching AI settlers and controlling your [future] territory with a small sophisticated force. Either way, two archers are a must. Preferably more.

 

[joncnunn]

Yes, the answer is "It depends", but I'm always facing the same decision:

I start with building a Scout. I don't need more than one since on Marathon pacing, it has enough time to explore everywhere that matters before I must make decisions regarding those things.

When the Scout is done, I haven't researched anything yet and unless I have a really sh*tty starting position, I need culture more than improved tiles at this point and can't improve any luxuries yet, so a Monument is next.

Next, I have Pottery (which I tend to research first now by default unless I have a compelling reason to go elsewhere), so I have to decide between Shrine, Granary, Worker and Settler. If I play a religious civ, the Shrine goes first (or maybe not if I have an alternative faith source) but if I don't, what then? Assuming I'll have to hard-build the first settler, when is it most advantageous to build it? If I build the Granary first I won't profit from it while the settler is building so delay it? Should I build a Granary at all at this time if I don't have tiles that get an extra bonus from it? 2 food is nothing to scoff at after all? Should I build up my economy until I can purchase a settler to avoid having zero growth in my capital while it's building?

And most importantly, when should I start producing military units and caravans? Caravans basically take forever to build this early but they're important for a early healthy economy (unless you beeline sailing in which case Cargo Ships take two times forever to build).

Every single thing I can build is such a significant investment in time that making a wrong decision can cripple my game in the long run. The path I'd take intuitively is "population first (Granary?), then production (Worker?), everything else follows" but even with that in mind I have a hard time judging which build order will result in the best start. Especially the timing of building the first settler is difficult. I guess if you start with Liberty, you could wait until you get the free settler and reduced cost for building them, but what if you start with Tradition?

Any recommendations? I'm playing as the Ottomans on Emperor difficulty (first try) at the moment, but I'm asking for more general advice. I'm also not aiming for a domination victory but would like to keep my options open otherwise.

I don't play Marathon, so this is standard speed I'm describing:

Scout: On most maps (e.g. it's not large islands / tiny islands / etc ) that is the standard opening build

Monument: This is the first thing that is policy specific: Going Tradition it should be skipped entirely. But for any other tree, you need a Monument.

If you want to found a religion, best to build Shrine here; especially if not playing a religious civ. But if you aren't interested in founding a religion, probably a Granary.

Military units: Archers are built before each city I'm founding.

Caravans: On my NEVER build list. I run all Cargo ships instead. Timing of those is after I've cleared the barbs that would interfere my trade routes.