Arms Contract

[Madoo]

Ok so here is my idea,
Lets say there is a country who makes a lot of millitary units, maybei more than he needs or maybei not doesnt matter, I think there should be this sort of system :

Ok ive got 10 tanks 20 fighters 4 modern armours and 7 helicopters my freind or a person engaged in a war isnt produceing enough millitary units to secure and advance and needs more units to keep the war going so he or i go to him and offer 5 tanks 7fighter, 2 helicopters, and 2 modern armour and that is immediatly deducted from me and placed in his capital and i over a period of set days get money so i give him that weaponry and in exchange i choose that he gives me 20 gold per turn for 20 turns or 30 or 10 or 5 or what ever, in this way there can be porxy wars and a new elliment of the eccnomy this ellement being what you produce instead of the boring i have a resource you have money i get money u get resources, i think it would be cool and way please comment on that idea.

Perhaps they could add this to BtS

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

What's stopping the ai of DOW you, after the delivery of the arms?
I already see monty demanding your army. And afterwards declare war on you.

 

[Train]

Lend troops is a strange idea. How an other nation will use your troops to defend itself? Well, you can protect him by yourself and the war conquests should be conquered by you, not him.
If England uses US troops in a war, then US is in this war. If England dominate any other nation using US troops, then the war conquests will be of england?
I understand that the stupid AI of Civ, sometimes require a little help... But I still think this is a strange idea.
The best idea for this is to create a different type of alliance. If a country gets involved in a war, this country have the rights to use all troops of his allies nations, but this allies nations don't need to get involved in this war.
But alliances already exist in game.

 

[Grimz101]

I just wish i could have troops where i can 'lend' them to a country fighting a war, based on dependancies, e.g you can have these 5 tanks 5 marines and 1 destroyer in exchange for you being at war with x,y,z. Where as soon as they are at peace they have to give me back the troops, or infact how about i just loan them the troops and i can recall them whenever i want. That would in essence be a good proxy war.

 

[BrendanM]

I just wish i could have troops where i can 'lend' them to a country fighting a war, based on dependancies, e.g you can have these 5 tanks 5 marines and 1 destroyer in exchange for you being at war with x,y,z. Where as soon as they are at peace they have to give me back the troops, or infact how about i just loan them the troops and i can recall them whenever i want. That would in essence be a good proxy war.

Good idea, like the Condor legion in the Spanish Civil War.

 

[Grimz101]

Yes maybe that would add onto civil wars, a neighbouring country could help the revoulotion! Hitler's airforce striking on spanish targets, when the civil war occured is a excellent, but yet bloody example

 

[Train]

There are also a "Give Military Control" or "Ask for Military Control" diplomatic option, from HoI2.

 

[Madoo]

OK,

Thanks for the replys but i dont think u understand me what i mean is not to sell my troops but millitary equipment such as gunships, Tanks, Aircraft and so forth which is in essence a proxxy war.

My allie monty is at war with Reosevelt an ally of Ramesses so i sell equipment to Monty and Ramesses sells equipment to Rosevelt like in the real world U.S gives israel weapons against Iranian armed Hezbollah or Angollan Communists armed and trained by Cuba on behalf of the Soviet Union and U.S backed Angolans armed and trained by South Africa apartheid on behlaf of the U.S and so on.

Note: This would be perfectly realistic as arms industries and Arms deals are a part of the global ecconomy with some advanced fighter planes being perchased for 140 million US fighter planes each, also not a proxy war but with both sides being bled dry purpossley by the world is the Iran-IRaq war every one giveing both partys weapons and placeing the two countryts in huge debt leaving them backwars to this day (although Iran is makeing good progress ecconomicly again).

 

[Grimz101]

i love the USA-Israel special relationship hehe.. USA sells stuff to Israel, which in turn israel sells to India, China, Russia, who USA competes with competively lool, then Russia and China sell it to countries like North Korea, Cuba, Iran for instance. So in effect because of Israel, USA is selling its enemies military equipment

 

[bonafide11]

Well, I don't think you should be able to "lend" another the AI your troops, but I think an arms contract could be represented by you selling units to them. For instance, you can negotiate to sell the AI maybe 5 catapults and 5 axemen or something for like 200 commerce. This would reflect an arms transfer, but I don't think there's any reason to expect the AI to return your troops after the war is over... If they purchase them, they own them...

 

[winddbourne]

Lending is kind of odd, however why can't I trade my military units? Rather than gifting them? If the option was in the trade screen there are times when I'd get rid of a number of units that are outdated to me, or that I didn't need, in exchange for a technology, money, a city, etc . . . Or in the case of strengthening someone to fight a proxy war for me; their world map, or some kind of diplomatic agreement.

The fact that you can "trade" everything but military units seems really odd to me. Why shouldn't I be able to sell monty a cannon? Not that I'd want to. lol.

 

[Grimz101]

Well, I don't think you should be able to "lend" another the AI your troops, but I think an arms contract could be represented by you selling units to them. For instance, you can negotiate to sell the AI maybe 5 catapults and 5 axemen or something for like 200 commerce. This would reflect an arms transfer, but I don't think there's any reason to expect the AI to return your troops after the war is over... If they purchase them, they own them...

Why not lend troops? Happend many times in history before, when countries send troops on behalf. Think of just Korea, UN Peacekeeping force beat korea all the way to the border, then the Chinise sent a 'volentary force' to assist korea..

 

[bonafide11]

Why not lend troops? Happend many times in history before, when countries send troops on behalf. Think of just Korea, UN Peacekeeping force beat korea all the way to the border, then the Chinise sent a 'volentary force' to assist korea..

Because that's too complicated for Civ... Although Civilization is based on history, they simplify it quite a bit to get it into the game. Lending troops would require an entire new diplomacy engine because right now it is basically "at war" and "not at war" with each AI. To gift the AI units and expect them back after the War would place you in an position where you're not at war with an AI, but your troops are fighting them, which doesn't make sense for the simple diplomacy of Civ. They would need to implement some form of peacekeeping force first.

But I do think it would be interesting and feasible to have it so you could sell your troops to the AI...

 

[Grimz101]

it could simply be solved by having a '--- you are supply troops to our enemies' you already get that for trading with their enemies why not for supplying troops?

 

[Madoo]

Lending is kind of odd, however why can't I trade my military units? Rather than gifting them? If the option was in the trade screen there are times when I'd get rid of a number of units that are outdated to me, or that I didn't need, in exchange for a technology, money, a city, etc . . . Or in the case of strengthening someone to fight a proxy war for me; their world map, or some kind of diplomatic agreement.

The fact that you can "trade" everything but military units seems really odd to me. Why shouldn't I be able to sell monty a cannon? Not that I'd want to. lol.

THANK YOU!

I am so sick of haveing to gift stuf to the AI to fight a proxy war which just leads to the AI i back to win and then the other to be crushed makeing the one i backed to strong.

All i want is to bleed the AI drie some times that what so many wars have been about, like (mentioned already) the Iran-Iraq war, where every one was selling weapons to both sides to bring them in to debt and destroy each others ecconomy thorough pilliging and air raids.

 

[bonafide11]

it could simply be solved by having a '--- you are supply troops to our enemies' you already get that for trading with their enemies why not for supplying troops?

No, but you're missing my point. You're not supplying troops for them if you expect them back, but they're still your troops. So then you're technically fighting the war still because your troops are still involved. It would be far simpler to merely sell the troops so you no longer own them. As long as you still own the troops, it will make it really odd if your troops can fight the war without you declaring war on them.

I suggest you take it one step at a time. Firaxis first needs to allow you to sell arms to your allies instead of gifting them. Then perhaps you can argue for a way to "lend" your troops to them, though I still don't really the reason for it. But at this point, selling troops to an ally would be an enormous step above gifting them, so I think most of us would be more than willing to accept that at this time...

 

[Madoo]

No, but you're missing my point. You're not supplying troops for them if you expect them back, but they're still your troops. So then you're technically fighting the war still because your troops are still involved. It would be far simpler to merely sell the troops so you no longer own them. As long as you still own the troops, it will make it really odd if your troops can fight the war without you declaring war on them.

I suggest you take it one step at a time. Firaxis first needs to allow you to sell arms to your allies instead of gifting them. Then perhaps you can argue for a way to "lend" your troops to them, though I still don't really the reason for it. But at this point, selling troops to an ally would be an enormous step above gifting them, so I think most of us would be more than willing to accept that at this time...

Not only that but lending troops isnt very full proof if you want them back because alout are bound to die, lending troops is stupid and doesnt happen, assistance from third partys takes place but that means you are a combatant i am talking about selling weapons for profit and for fighting proxy wars and causing instability to weaken potential rivals or rivals freinds eg: U.S suported Indonesian invasion of East Timor to stop communism spreading there since this was a crucial time in the cold war when not only the Soviet union was a rival but The peoples republic of china was aswell.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

Selling arms is nothing new, America does it all the time. E.g. England WWII, Israel, Iraq, etc.

It would be interesting, I don't know how I feel about it. If the AI was dumb enough you could potentially buy the better part of their army and attack them with it.

 

[generalawal]

It would be interesting, I don't know how I feel about it. If the AI was dumb enough you could potentially buy the better part of their army and attack them with it.

That would be easy to get around. Just have them not sell more than a certain portion of their military, perhaps deriving that portion from the power graph.

I'd really like to see this option. The last game I played, I was befriending Alexander, and he went to war with Hatty (no. 2 contender for my superpower spot). I had a big stack of obsolete units, gifted them to Alexander, and he upgraded them and dealt a good blow to Hatty. I would have also liked to get some money or techs or something for them.

Also -- sometimes the AI won't accept a gift of units. Why not?

 

[Grimz101]

That reminds me.. getting a vassal, then giving your vassal all your old units from the ancient age, and having them upgrading them to the best possible things, is overpowered :O.