Ashen Veil balance issues

anyone mind if i shed some light onto this topic?


1 - leaves. NOTHING can stop the FoL inside their borders. just build yourself your 3 invisible beastmasters with move 4 and forest combat 2 and you will understand. and i am not brining up druids. teching to this is also VERY strong and impossible to counter.

2 - kilmorph. NOTHING can out produce you. you can build whatever your highest tech unit is every turn. you are the god of gold and hammers. someone brought up sacrificing your guys for 50% of their hammers.... did you build the soulforge? how many of you that talk about RoK being weak have ever run Khazad on the econ tree and used shadow/assasins coupled with seige instead of using foot?

3 - overlords , your totally amphibious. your units mean you never need to build boats. you have hemah , and the ability to make flesh golems. coupled with slavery and all the culture and research gained .... its an extremely solid religion.

4 - order , so far no one here has mentioned the use of demon/undead slaying and i have wondered why. the order is the one most likely to build an empire and be able to sustain it. sphener and the paladinns are a force of nature in and of themselves. the order though is one of the more subtle religions.

5 - the AV. again when fighting the AV use units with demon slaying. use fast moving units. or use units that can be rendered invisible.

each and every religion is strong in the hands of those with the right mindset and knowledge. get to know what each religion tries to do , try and get into its head. keal and co have done a wonderful job of giving the civs and religions personalities. try and get your playstyle to fit these and you will find it gets easier.

1. Both OO and AV players have summon units from their priests that see invisible units and can produce N amounts of them. Hence invisible recons take a spanking. Not to mention that there is a cap that you cannot excede in the amount of national units... And to get experience bonus to recon units you need guilds. And even then rangers are a bit too costy and xp ing an army for those promotions is unlikely... Especially after priest of leaves got their tigers taken away...

2. Except AV. The food consumption means you can build, grow and sustain a city in max production minimal food enviroments, and with the exception of ice squares there is no such thing as "bad" place for a city... All in all you can build more and better producing cities.

3. Slavery is weakest religion civic. No questions about it. Hemah is nice, but comes too late to really make a difference unless your opponents are slowww... Grafting was great but I recently read on these forums that grafted highpriest+ mage combos no longer cast, can I get a confirmation on that? Krakens are nice and very good for controlling high seas. Water mana is very good from the holy city. Although all of these are late game advantages and hence you will be there dozens of turns after the AV player...

4. Against sand lions deamon slaying is no use. Neither is it against diseased corpses. Again paladins are national units and are no use against a summon horde. The thing you can use to your advantage is ring of flames, pilar of fire and heal. But even with those you can only survive, you can't really attack efficiently...
 
You're ignoring positives.

Yes, invisible recon get spanked when visible, but you wont have anything left to make them visible. You probably wont have anything left period. Double movement in forests, forests everywhere, ancient forests, on every bloody tile. 70% attack and defense in those wonderful forests, with a 15 strength unit that poisons. Your beastmasters didn't start out as beastmasters either. They are the three best surviving satyrs and started with woodsman 1 and picked up subdue animal for free as well on upgrading to rangers. They wont be your only units either, being limited to three isn't some awful shortcoming. That just means that the three eidolons protecting your ritualists are getting . .. .. .. .. .slapped by them so the 8 strength rangers can kill you. Never mind that your cities have populations in the thirties instead of the teens and you have so much great people production you'd have to be an idiot not to have a high level altar and blessed promotion on your beastmasters and much of the rest of your army. Oops? Attacking ljosalfar with leaves late game is suicide, period. Find some other way to kill them, burn the forests down if you can manage it, but you're going to die if you move in anything an AV player of any side can bring to a fight even with a 5-1 city advantage.

Of course, then there's that fallacy of an argument saying AV can outproduce kilmorph with khazad.

Think about it, half the food requirements, 10% gold and science, -20% gp production and sacrificing, or +3 happiness, +40% production, +1 production to mines, +45% gp production and decreased support costs with gold rushing. You don't need to be a math major to get it. As long as they stay within their costs, AV can outresearch, but they are never going to outspend them.

Paladins, another really big duh here. Ok, so demon slaying wont kill sand lions and diseased corpses. Paladins are immune to disease and fear, killing 14 strength units with sand lions isn't exactly practical. Against paladins, diseased corpses don't cause disease, thus diseased corpses are useless. Using a -30% strength unit when it can't even the odds is pointless. Not to mention the 3 holy strength has it on a vulnerability too. Since you seem to think they can't do anything when there are only three of them, the crusaders are 7 strength, disease immune demon slayers too. Then there's valor increasing the xp gains and heal repairing damage between rounds on the faster healing units. Of course, that doesn't matter because the really weak summons from your ritualists are going to magically kill much stronger units with bonuses against them while the diseased corpses that can't disease anything win against yet again, better troops while having a further -30%.

What do you have against slavery anyway? It's by no means a weak civic, but then you go and call it the weakest religion civic? If you were ragging on social order sure, but even when you're not balseraphs, slaves are extremely useful to have. That grafting was great but hemah, which is available earlier than other archmages, comes too late to matter, that's just silly. They aren't the start of your dominance anyway. You get that from your disciple line. The drown with cannibalize upgraded into stygian guard destroy any and all naval powers, including the lanun. Never mind that the drown themselves are rather good at it to start with and lunatics are good for doing things like assassinating rosier. There's no nut too tough to crack with a lunatic early on, even with enraged being nerfed.

Is AV good? Yes. Is AV some godawful cheese with no counters? Hardly, it's one of five different flavors of cheese called religions. Religions aren't even the only kinds of cheese, you're not bothering with rushing a religion as the hippus are you? If you are, stop and rush the ride of the nine kings. Being able to produce flanking 3 horselord cavalry with near perfect withdrawal is far better than having ritualists. You can kill them and their summons without a single casualty even if you have lousy odds, magnadine gets a 100% withdrawal rate too, godly that.

Also, when it comes to ffh, you're refuting god. From what I gather, daladinn can kill anyone with anything.
 
This is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start, so I 'll just answer in bits:

You're ignoring positives.

Yes, invisible recon get spanked when visible, but you wont have anything left to make them visible. You probably wont have anything left period. Double movement in forests, forests everywhere, ancient forests, on every bloody tile. 70% attack and defense in those wonderful forests, with a 15 strength unit that poisons. Your beastmasters didn't start out as beastmasters either. They are the three best surviving satyrs and started with woodsman 1 and picked up subdue animal for free as well on upgrading to rangers. They wont be your only units either, being limited to three isn't some awful shortcoming. That just means that the three eidolons protecting your ritualists are getting . .. .. .. .. .slapped by them so the 8 strength rangers can kill you. Never mind that your cities have populations in the thirties instead of the teens and you have so much great people production you'd have to be an idiot not to have a high level altar and blessed promotion on your beastmasters and much of the rest of your army. Oops? Attacking ljosalfar with leaves late game is suicide, period. Find some other way to kill them, burn the forests down if you can manage it, but you're going to die if you move in anything an AV player of any side can bring to a fight even with a 5-1 city advantage.

Unit strength simply doesn't matter against AV summon hordes. It makes no difference whatsoever. When they fight, even at 100% chances there is still a chance that it takes damage. When it starts taking damage it will take more, and that will take the combat chance below 100%, and after that one of the summons will kill it. This is why you cannot plan strategies based on single unit, no matter how cool they are. The only exception being eater of dreams for the sheaim in an offencive war, where every city you conquer is another population -3 units at your disposal... Have you played with FoL? The strongest defence you have against summon spam is indeed the forests them selves, but not why you imagine it. It is because they use 2 movement points per squere. That means summoned units only move 2 squeres. This again is still bad news for those recons, since with a movement of 4, you can move 1, strike, and retreat 2. Still in range, I'm afraid... No matter how you put it, they are still toast as soon as they come. Also, even if you could get to attack the stack you are still going to run into the problem of not being able to target the summoning units, since stack has protection in the form of other units. Ideally lions and imps to protect from normal units and units with marksmanpromotion. If you don't have summoner trait, you might want to use something else instead.

Of course, then there's that fallacy of an argument saying AV can outproduce kilmorph with khazad.

Think about it, half the food requirements, 10% gold and science, -20% gp production and sacrificing, or +3 happiness, +40% production, +1 production to mines, +45% gp production and decreased support costs with gold rushing. You don't need to be a math major to get it. As long as they stay within their costs, AV can outresearch, but they are never going to outspend them.

Think about it this way. A citizen working on a farm can normally produce 4-6 foor, providing for himself and 1-2 other workers working production tiles or being specialist. A AV citizen produces the same amount providing food to himself and 3-5 other citizens working production tiles or being specialist.
The production bonus for kilmorph is as follows. Out of three population, at best, 1 working farms 2 working mines you get one extra production per mine + 40% flat rate.
For AV, you get at 3 to 4 times as many workers in production squares...
Not to mention you can put cities in places that would otherwise be stupid and take full advantage of every squere you have. So you have more cities...
You have a set amonut of good food production squares that limit the size of your city, lets say 4.
For AV this means you can grow and sustain the city to up to size 16-20, while others can sustain a city size 8-10, depending on resourses, sanitation, agriculture etc...

Which produces more?
(N+1)*1.4 or N*3
In what values of N is Kilmorph better?

Paladins, another really big duh here. Ok, so demon slaying wont kill sand lions and diseased corpses. Paladins are immune to disease and fear, killing 14 strength units with sand lions isn't exactly practical. Against paladins, diseased corpses don't cause disease, thus diseased corpses are useless. Using a -30% strength unit when it can't even the odds is pointless. Not to mention the 3 holy strength has it on a vulnerability too. Since you seem to think they can't do anything when there are only three of them, the crusaders are 7 strength, disease immune demon slayers too. Then there's valor increasing the xp gains and heal repairing damage between rounds on the faster healing units. Of course, that doesn't matter because the really weak summons from your ritualists are going to magically kill much stronger units with bonuses against them while the diseased corpses that can't disease anything win against yet again, better troops while having a further -30%.

Again, strength does not matter when summon hordes are in question. Back when nature mana still gave tigers, I ate a paladin defending a city with two tigers (honest mistake really, I had an tiger experience exchange going with my neighbour and I believed that it couldn't die to that. Boy how wrong I was...)
Paladins take damage from combat just like everyone else and once they have done that they no longer have 100% chance against low str units and bite the dust under the swarm...
Diseased corpses are meant to desease defence stacks that defend cities so that they are faster to take down and protect the stack as ablative armor... They are cheap and can be mass produced. Obviously if the enemy has destroy undead you use something else instead. They just come from a very early tech and are as such easy to use and pretty powerful.

What do you have against slavery anyway? It's by no means a weak civic, but then you go and call it the weakest religion civic? If you were ragging on social order sure, but even when you're not balseraphs, slaves are extremely useful to have. That grafting was great but hemah, which is available earlier than other archmages, comes too late to matter, that's just silly. They aren't the start of your dominance anyway. You get that from your disciple line. The drown with cannibalize upgraded into stygian guard destroy any and all naval powers, including the lanun. Never mind that the drown themselves are rather good at it to start with and lunatics are good for doing things like assassinating rosier. There's no nut too tough to crack with a lunatic early on, even with enraged being nerfed.
+1 production from quarry? Hurry with pop is ok, but still...
With no research bonus AV gets to arcane lore first and at the point where you have built Hemah AV player has already built his "summoner stack of doom" that is not too impressed with meteors... The "ditch defence" with tsunami works like a charm though. (that is building a channel of water 1 square wide cutting yourself of the continent and krakens keeping all invading navies at bay...) Yes, drowned and especially water walking stygian guard are nice. Will they rule the seas, no. They can't go out of coast or culture boundaries. Another favourite being underwater roads though...
Can anyone confirm or deny the grafted caster block?

Is AV good? Yes. Is AV some godawful cheese with no counters? Hardly, it's one of five different flavors of cheese called religions. Religions aren't even the only kinds of cheese, you're not bothering with rushing a religion as the hippus are you? If you are, stop and rush the ride of the nine kings. Being able to produce flanking 3 horselord cavalry with near perfect withdrawal is far better than having ritualists. You can kill them and their summons without a single casualty even if you have lousy odds, magnadine gets a 100% withdrawal rate too, godly that.

Also, when it comes to ffh, you're refuting god. From what I gather, daladinn can kill anyone with anything.

The problem at the moment with AV is, whatever others can do, they do better. With minor changes things could be different. Changing sand lions to str 1 (+4 fire) from 4+1 would mean resistances actually help against them. Also maybe moving the see invis to some other summon than the sand lion would make a difference. At the moment it is strong, moves fast and sees invisible. A bit imba, imho...
Hippus are nice:)
MV 7 commando horses ftw...
However, withdrawal only works when attacking... Mounted units are very nice for pillaging enemy heartlands, but are a bit expensive for it. Since if the enemy has any reserves, horses tend to be one use in that...

I have played, a lot, both single player games and against the most creative, smart and devious players imaginable... This has left me a bit disillusioned on how things really work in the game...
 
as far as your mention of the recon...

-move 4 means .... move 4 , attack , move 2.
-also please keep in mind each and every unit moving into a forest has to check for treat spawn.
-rangers will be the mainstay of the army. by the time the sheiam matter i can make 1 ranger per turn per city. with the ranger in my capital starting with 8-10 xp.

as far as runes.
- in all my history i have never been able to get AV making 300+ hammers a turn in a city or having avg hammers per city over 200. i have done this many many times with RoK.
- its +2 hammers per mine that your looking at.
- both the siege and the recon do collateral.
- i have yet to meet a player who remembered and counted correctly the double move bonus dwarfs get on hills.

as for OO.
- please keep in mind the +15% research bonus they get over the others.
- AV cant swarm any OO hero/unit that manages to get to combat 5 (fear)
- many times the late game lands in a military stalemate. where if either side starts a war a 3rd or 4th side will finish the 2 involved. if this is the case the OO have an extreme advantage in their culture wars for territory.

as for the order ...
- hell i would just bring basium in and let the angels do their thing. sadly i know too well how undead and demons fair against angels.

please temper all this ... you need to understand how much i love playing the AV. but the AV are not overpowered , they just have more of the toys i enjoy using then the others. the others though are just as viable.
 
Also remember: While the sandlions do rock, they mean NOTHING against a neutral player. If their druids are doing their job, all terrain is grassland, and you are completely unable to summon the sandlions in their terrain. Now, with Summoner trait and the 2 extra move points you do get some impressive terrain coverage, but eventually you NEED to move your army in closer, and your conjurers will just be left sitting back deep in your borders wishing they could join the fight.
 
Fear works on living units only
 
xien, you could just bring an adept with fire1 along to scorch a new desert tile? (atleast i think, not sure if it only works on plains or not)
about RoK bringing in 300+ hammers, yes it's possible, but only with a few very lategame techs (you'd need the additional +1 mine bonus, aswell as several additional buildings to keep happiness and health in check). During the early stages of AV, it helps loads to be able to work all tiles, even with low health and/or happiness.
oh and psychoak, you really think a summon stack is protected by 3 units? a civ with the summoner traits can generally use their own summons as stack protectors, with quite decent efficiency (maibe not the sand lions, but the higher tier summons definatly can, and since you're on about beastmasters, you're talking tier 3 summons). Yes, the beastmasters will do well in the forests. The ritualist/conjurer/summoner will only rarely enter those forests, so those bonusses don't apply on offence
 
about RoK bringing in 300+ hammers, yes it's possible, but only with a few very lategame techs (you'd need the additional +1 mine bonus, aswell as several additional buildings to keep happiness and health in check). During the early stages of AV, it helps loads to be able to work all tiles, even with low health and/or happiness.

Why aren't you restricted to the same happiness cap as anyone else (i.e. why would your max workable tiles be higher)? If anything I would think that the distruction of resources from hell terrain would mean you have a lower happiness cap.
 
well, since you can get 4 workers from 1 tile easily enough, you can get 2 unhappies from that tile, and still work a plains mine along with it.
 
Demus: No, you cannot scorch grassland, only plains. Once something goes grass there is NO way to bring it back down, except a small chance from Blight at the first AC 40. Even then it isn't overly common to see much change on a grassland empire (druids will patch it all up in a few turns easily)
 
Something that most people seem to be vaguely unfamiliar with, summoned units cost upkeep. Having three summoned units for every caster continually means every caster is draining four units worth. Can you kill four crusaders with three sandlions? Upkeep is important, stop ignoring it. If summoned units were really free, yeah, ritualists would be a real . .. .. .. .. ..

Gritty

You're not setting the difficulty to settler or something are you?

Assuming all upgrades and some mythical tile selections, a grassland farm is good for five food, a plains hill mine is good for 5 production. Disregarding that you've already lost if you're building farm and mine cities, you can gain 20 production for every farm. Now do that with your ~10 happiness and make your 40ish production city. Then you get to add some production bonuses, a forge gets you +25%, a machinist shop another +20%, now you're up to a little under 60 production. You're losing horribly by being able to produce 2 turn ritualists you can't afford instead of using your science output to tech ahead and running plains towns without needing farms to cover them or doing a specialist tech popping rush, but still. 60 production ain't bad, not bad at all.

Now, the khazad, he's got a 3 happiness advantage on you, probably 4, he starts with gold, but lets just say 3. His farms only get him one and a half mines. So with his 13 pop he's got 5 farms and 7 mines with an extra grassland one to your 2 and 8. His forge equivilent gives +40%, making his bonus a nice round +100%, of course he's already spanking your 40 with a 47, so the final 94 is just adding to the embarrassment.

We can go bigger though, bigger populations are good for the AV player. At 20-23(which is kinda absurd, but meh, so is this thread) you're supporting 80 base production and the khazad player is only supporting 83, oh, still higher, oops? Not that you'll have magical tile selection to work everything out perfectly, you're really getting spanked when there aren't enough hills to use all your population.

Yeah it sounds great having four mines for every farm, but it just doesn't cut the mustard. I'm guessing I've forgotten something too, because if daladinn says they have +2 production over AV mines, they probably do have +2 production and you're actually getting spanked a lot worse than the above math says you are. Khazad own the production curve, period. If you're AV, you should be using cottages and specialist pops to out tech the guy before he has oodles of resources under all those mines and can buy troops faster than you can build them while building them faster than you can build them too. You've already lost if you're using mines to try an impossible feat.

Then there's the magical summoner horde, yet again there is no magical summoner horde, is expensive! You have stricter limitations than the order player does for upkeep and maintenance. There is no one paladin, there is one paladin and as many crusaders and confessors as it needs to not die and spank the . .. .. .. . out of your summoned units, which are weaker and wont even kill the crusaders on the defensive. You have to get close and use your damage spells to soften them up, they don't degrade from turn to turn and have to sit there trying to heal back up, they get like 40% heal rates or something in neutral territory. Kill them and their angelic lawbringer punching bags all in one turn or lose. They'll be twice as nasty the next turn and your summoners will be dead.

Slavery, ignore the production from quarries, irrelevant. Slaves. Is it on par with STW? no. Is it some pathetic civic that sucks? Hardly. It's far better than social order, and an outstanding improvement over the non-religious civics it replaces. Free workers, production sacrifices without happiness nuking and killing population, freak show exhibits giving happiness and culture, extra lunatics in an emergency. You can't actually rush production fast enough to use the benefit of having half food consumption with STW, so whipping is essentially equal to both without unyielding order. The religion as a whole is very important too, your summoner horde isn't that great, the priest line is godly, but your conjurors aren't any better than OO conjurors. Entropy mana actually makes for fairly lousy summons, water walking summons mucho useful by comparison, and djinn even get magic spheres just like imps. For the priest line, as said before, killing undead and demon units with ritualist summons bites the big one. Stygian guard rape any and all level 2 summoned units, cannibalize stygian guard can rape them in massive numbers. Cannibalize iron weapon drown do rather nicely too. If they set themselves up well, they are building warriors by the bundle, mutating them for extra strength, and sacrificing the bungled ones for more production. Those can be some ridiculously tough stygian guard.

Demus.

Unhappies aren't good for your output, ever. With Calabim running AV, you can neutralize one food for one hammer, you cannot produce a net gain with unhappy population, period. You can feast more as calabim with unhappy population, but that is irrelevant to AV and works even better as OO or order. Having two workers and two unhappies for one farm means you're worse off than you were before you had the two unhappies and just had two workers and a farm.

Your summoners are going to be guarded by three units too. The options that can take on a well upgraded ljosalfar ranger in ancient forests are not level 2 summons. They will tear through anything short of one unit, a cannibalize eidolon. That is the only unit you are ever going to survive long with inside fol borders. The eidolon might even survive a beastmaster, they are tough little bastards. Unfortunately, promoting a diseased corpse to get cannibalize will be all but impossible at this point, so your cannibalize eidolons are very limited, while the beastmasters can be replaced at will off rapidly leveling rangers. Remember, with twice your population easily and a grassland ancient forest producing 3 food and one production before any improvements are made, if you have twice as many cities as they do, you've got a fraction of their economic and industrial might. Those units are practically free, to compare with your practically free summoned units, which are inferior on offense. You can't win in their forests. They probably can't leave them, but you sure as hell aren't going in and coming back out with your pants on. They can't not enter them either, 4 move summons wont do squat to a ljosalfar empire from outside their cultural borders. They can produce enough culture to have twice the needed buffer with ease, you'll never get close to the city that late in the game.
 
Something that most people seem to be vaguely unfamiliar with, summoned units cost upkeep. Having three summoned units for every caster continually means every caster is draining four units worth. Can you kill four crusaders with three sandlions? Upkeep is important, stop ignoring it. If summoned units were really free, yeah, ritualists would be a real . .. .. .. .. ..
There's a good reason why they're ignoring it - while summoned units pay upkeep just like unsummoned units for that type of unit, most (if not all) types of units that can be summoned have no upkeep cost. There is an exploit based on this for the Sheaim; They can get long-term Chaos Marauderers through Planar gates which cause no upkeep (presumably because they can be summoned). Looking at the below list, the Infernal player should be able to pull off something similar with Imp and Balor.

A list of units with no upkeep cost (warning - this is generated directly from the unit XML, so some names may be incomplete/non-standard):
Abashi
Acheron
Imp
Adventurer (the unit, not the upgrades)
Air Elemental
Ars
Arthendain
Artist (Great)
Bambur
Barnaxus
Basium
Balor
Black Wind
Buboes
Chalid
Chaos Marauder
Commander (Great)
Corlindale
Demagog
Djinn
Donal
Dragon's Hoard
Duin
Earth Elemental
Einherjar
Engineer (Great)
Eurabatres
Eye (Floating)
Fire Elemental
Fireball
Gilden
Govannon
Griffon
Guardian Vines
Guybrush
Hawk
Parrot
Raven
Hemah
Hyborem
Kael
Kikijub
Kithra
Law Bringer
Lifespark
Loki
Losha
Magnadine
Mardero
Maros
Merchant (Great)
Meshabber
Meteor
Mithril Golem
Spectre
Orthus
Pit Beast
Pirate
 
xan,

for some reason iirc it adds upkeep with the summoned promotion. i could never get free summoned no matter how many i summoned. i did at one point notice the lack of upkeep from planar gates though. this feels very hazy in my memory though and i will have to go recheck.

as for the rest of this , lets start testing all of this on deity diffs so we can get some real honest comparisons. i am talking about things that work or don't work on deity, if your at a lower dif some strats become very easy.
 
Gah! You cant make summons free! Summon-hordes are unbeatable already, don't make them have zero drawbacks..
 
Getting hell terrain protects your resources from blight by turning them into their hell equivalents.

Getting Hell terrain:
1- does not require AV (although it helps it more)
2- screws your resources before blight

There's a better option than this to protect your resources from Blight: don't make it happen.

Not really...
The spread of hell terrain gives bonuses to deamons (av player units) and demons and summons happen to be the best possible unit against armageddon heroes...
This in addition to the blight wiping out your enemies ability to build anything until they rebuild their farms and get their resources back in use is a defacto difference between wiping the map or not doing so...

And if you happen to have barbarian trait and be the AV player... Very Nice!

1- The bonus is a 10% bonus, which is a ludicrous one in FFH2. Also demons have the HUGE flaw to have a racial vs. promotion of +40%, which makes that 10% even less significant.
2- Blight will wipe your farms and pastures even if you are with AV just as much as with your enemies. Stop thinking that Blight is an AV bonus: it is not. The only possible advantage one AV player could have with Blight is IF he also adopted Sacrifice the Weak, but once again this leads to what I said from the very beginning and that those who don't get stuck with calculating ludicrous 10% boni or easily counterable tactics seem to understand as well:

AV's true strength is still the STW civic.

My opinion is that the main problem with Ashen Veil is that Sacrifice the Weak is a bit strong. I think that the easiest solution is to increase the amount of food consumed per population - perhaps to 1 1/2 (instead of 1).

The balance issue is specifically with Sacrifice the Weak, which is inherently way more powerful that other religious civics, not with the Ashen Veil in general.
 
just out of curiosity: why is everyone using sand-lions as their tier 2 summon? personally, i recon specters do the job a lot better. They may start out low, but improve with each death-mana you gain. On larger maps, it's really not that tough to gain str. 8 specters. Unless you run into a death-immune enemy, you're in a lot better position. And as an added bonus: they can be summoned on every terrain, not just desert.
 
I always keep a mage with life II ready (at home and in the invasion force), just in case someone wants to use imps/spectres.

There's no tier 2 spell so devestating to sand lions.


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