Autocracy Tenet question

[slowmotion7]

What do you mean with that?Of course Bushido helps Japanese units.

He was being facetious

 

[Atreju]

Ah, so its not an additive bonus.

NOT
50% is 70% +25% = 95% power

IS
50% is 70% + (25% * 70%) = 87.5%

But the question still remains... does a fascist Japanese unit that is wounded get the 25% boost as well?

I think so, why not.A wounded unit is a wounded unit, whether they fight like on full strength or not.I think they still get +25% combat bonus because they just are wounded.

 

[Atreju]

No. Bushido does not help Japanese units at all.

I didn't say that it's not helping.I just want to say that bushido let's wounded unit fight lke they would fight on full strength.This does not mean a combat bonus of +100%, that's wrong.It only means they fight with full strength.To reach full strength you don't need exactly +100% combat bonus.Maybe if a unit is wounded and only fights with half strength, only then bushido is like +100% combat bonus.But let's say a unit with 1HP fights with only 5% of it's normal strength THEN bushido gives more than +100% combat bonus.I just want to tell you the difference and that you still should be able to add +25% to wounded units.

 

[Inhalaattori]

What do you mean with that?Of course Bushido helps Japanese units.

Sorry, I meant "Populism" doesn't help Japanese units. At least this is what most people have said, MadDjin for example.

http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?118949-Japan-s-UA&p=1522651#post1522651

 

[Atreju]

But I did, because its not helping. The fact is that "populism" does not have any effect on Japanese units. "Populism" does not make Japanese units fight better.

Why not?Populism adds +25%combat bonus to wounded units.So a 99Hp unit gets a +25% combat bonus whether Japanese or not.At least it should be so because it's just described like that.

 

[Inhalaattori]

Why not?Populism adds +25%combat bonus to wounded units.So a 99Hp unit gets a +25% combat bonus whether Japanese or not.At least it should be so because it's just described like that.

It does not say "+25% combat bonus". It says "Wounded Military Units inflict 25% more damage than normal".

Im not a specialist on this matter so Im not 100% sure, but people who know a lot about this game have said that "Populism" does not stack with "Bushido". I dont know if they have changed this later, but it seems that at least in Vanilla Civ V they did not stack.

 

[Atreju]

It does not say "+25% combat bonus". It says "Wounded Military Units inflict 25% more damage than normal".

Im not a specialist on this matter so Im not 100% sure, but people who know a lot about this game have said that "Populism" does not stack with "Bushido". I dont know if they have changed this later, but it seems that at least in Vanilla Civ V they did not stack.

Dealing +25% damage and having a combat bonus of 25%...isn't it the same?More strength more damage?Well, I don't know exactly but even if it's +25% damage.Populism still should work for Japanese wounded units because bushido only makes them fighting like full strength units and does NOT change the fact that the unit is wounded.

 

[bcaiko]

Why does it matter what apllies first?A wounded Japanese unit, for example 80HP fights with full combat strength like it would have 100HP but it still is wounded, granting the +25% combat bonus, doesn't matter if you calculate A+B or B+A.

Why not?Populism adds +25%combat bonus to wounded units.So a 99Hp unit gets a +25% combat bonus whether Japanese or not.At least it should be so because it's just described like that.

Because Bushido is better than and overtakes the Populism wounded bonus (because it's applied second).

First off, remember that wounded units fight with less strength than non-wounded ones. A heavily wounded unit of 100 strength, for instance, fights with 50 strength. The Populism bonus applies first and to this wounded number:

50 strength * 125% = 62.5 strength under Populism.

Well, that's slightly better, at least. But under Bushido, that heavily wounded Japanese unit is THEN rounded up to its full fighting strength from there:

62.5 strength under Populism -> 100 strength under Bushido.

In short, because the precentages ARE NOT ADDED TOGETHER, but are applied separately, and becuase BUSHIDO IS APPLIED LAST, Bushido will always trump Populism (which is a worse bonus than Bushido anyway) by rounding the units strength back up to 100% when the calculations are done. Japan does not currently get any benefit from Populism, and (if the current math stays in place) will not benefit from that identically phrased Autocracy tenant.

I hope that helps explain things for ya.

 

[Atreju]

Because Bushido is better than and overtakes the Populism wounded bonus (because it's applied second).

First off, remember that wounded units fight with less strength than non-wounded ones. A heavily wounded unit of 100 strength, for instance, fights with 50 strength. The Populism bonus applies first and to this wounded number:

50 strength * 125% = 62.5 strength under Populism.

Well, that's slightly better, at least. But under Bushido, that heavily wounded Japanese unit is THEN rounded up to its full fighting strength from there:

62.5 strength under Populism -> 100 strength under Bushido.

In short, because the precentages ARE NOT ADDED TOGETHER, but are applied separately, and becuase BUSHIDO IS APPLIED LAST, Bushido will always trump Populism (which is a worse bonus than Bushido anyway) by rounding the units strength back up to 100% when the calculations are done. Japan does not currently get any benefit from Populism, and (if the current math stays in place) will not benefit from that identically phrased Autocracy tenant.

I hope that helps explain things for ya.

Where do you see what applies first and what second?Why do the bonuses not stack?It's not very logical...But now I understand what you mean

 

[stealth_nsk]

Japan does not currently get any benefit from Populism, and (if the current math stays in place) will not benefit from that identically phrased Autocracy tenant.

Looks like a bug for me, honestly. Hope devs are aware of.

 

[Yzman]

I think there is a missunderstanding.A wounded Japanese unit fights WITH hundred 100%strength but not a +100%COMBAT BONUS like said in posts above. Populism should still be helpful for wounded Japanese units because first, a 80 HP unit fights with 100% strength BUT it is STILL WOUNDED and gets a +25% combat bonus.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I in no way said they get a 100% combat bonus. I said they fight at 100% strength. Regardless of what is applied first, the unit will at most always fight at 100% strength when they are Japan, meaning populism does nothing. AFAIK the bonus is capped to full strength meaning a wounded unit will never fight at more than normal full strength.

To further clarify we can look at the article on this site about populism
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=484126#2



Populism
Wounded Military Units inflict 25% more damage than normal.

Tired of the buzzing sound you hear when enemy fighters give paper cuts to all of your units? Still clearing your head after that Atomic Bomb landed next to you? Populism will help make the enemy pay for not killing you outright. With the added bonus you overcome some of the reduction in damage for being wounded, but you will never go above what a full health unit can give for damage.
Instead of a 10% reduction in damage given, per 20 hit points lost, Populism changes it to:

100-70 HP: 0% reduction
60-30 HP: 10% reduction
20-1 HP: 20% reduction

This also means that the popular myth of 125% damage giving Japanese units is not true. Japan is the only civilization that should avoid Populism (unless trying to finish Autocracy) as it will never benefit them.

 

[bcaiko]

Where do you see what applies first and what second?Why do the bonuses not stack?It's not very logical...But now I understand what you mean

Glad that helped. Yeah, it's not really explained anywhere in Civ5's text. But some helpful CivFanatics dug into the code and found that's how the math works. Now we can warn fellow Japanophiles off of this idea, as awesome as it sounds.

 

[Stellarnight]

Talking about autocracy tenets,

What ever happened to the "kamikaze" tenet?

 

[Antiphon]

Because Bushido is better than and overtakes the Populism wounded bonus (because it's applied second).

First off, remember that wounded units fight with less strength than non-wounded ones. A heavily wounded unit of 100 strength, for instance, fights with 50 strength. The Populism bonus applies first and to this wounded number:

50 strength * 125% = 62.5 strength under Populism.

Well, that's slightly better, at least. But under Bushido, that heavily wounded Japanese unit is THEN rounded up to its full fighting strength from there:

62.5 strength under Populism -> 100 strength under Bushido.

In short, because the precentages ARE NOT ADDED TOGETHER, but are applied separately, and becuase BUSHIDO IS APPLIED LAST, Bushido will always trump Populism (which is a worse bonus than Bushido anyway) by rounding the units strength back up to 100% when the calculations are done. Japan does not currently get any benefit from Populism, and (if the current math stays in place) will not benefit from that identically phrased Autocracy tenant.

I hope that helps explain things for ya.

To make it clear and simple. Unit Testdummy has 100 HP and fights with 100 strength. Testdummy gets used by Germany (or any Non-Japanese Civ for that matter) and has 50 HP left. Therefore, he now fights with only fifty instead of 100 strength (I do think the actual formular is different, but it does not matter for my point). Now, Germany picks Populism, and 25% OF THAT 50 get added - so Combat Strength with Populism for 50 hp is 50 + 12,5= 62,5. NOW THERE is a trick, since a HEALTHY Testdummy fights 100, the cap is 100. 90HP still fight with 100 Combat strength, otherwise your slightly injured units WOULD FIGHT BETTER THAN HEALTHY. And this is not the spirit of the game ;-).

Testdummy for Japanese ALWAYS fight 100 combat strength due to Bushido, even when only 1 HP, so Populism SUPERFLUOUS. Giving them additional 25% combat stregth while injured would still be superfuous, or making injured units fight better than healthy ones. Or did you mean Japan should get a genereal combat bonus with populism, like +25% combat strength for ALL units, healthy or not? That could be acceptable, but make it rather +5%.