Axxon's Guide to All You Want To Know About REF, Rebel Sentiment and Revolution

[ButSam]

Yeah, there was a series of events that contributed to a rapid rise in independence sentiment:
1) Benjamin Franklin publishing (indirectly) letters between a colonial governor and parliament indicating a desire to quash the relative independence the colonials had been enjoying.
2) Thomas Paine publishing Common Sense
3) The various "outrages" perpetuated on the American people by the Brits.

But the game doesn't model this sort of thing at all. Instead it gives an exponential response to the cumulative liberty bells generated, but only allows independence if you kill off enough of your own people to make the instantaneous LB production exceed 50%.

As other people have said, it makes no sense that 100% of your population supports independence but the game equation won't let you rebel due to the brain-dead equation used in the game.

A bit exaggerated. Your point is well taken, I was just offering some counterpoint that perhaps it is intentionally wrong to want to generate liberty bells from the beginning. I can't think of a simple mechanism to replace the current mechanism with...if people outside cities don't count, then there is a huge exploit in that you just have everyone leave the cities except 1 person per city and you declare independence. So, I don't see a good workaround...at least the present system, you either do it the "right" way (have people join cities and convert) or kill them off and at least take some loss for your exploitation of the mechanic.

I do not think you *have* to kill people off, though, like you said. I also don't believe the game doesn't model what actually happened at all. Printing Press, Newspaper, and some of the more...shall I say...boisterous Founding Fathers give liberty bell bonuses.

It's not perfect, but I think it would be wrong to try to dream up a mechanic that allows one to play such that they produce liberty bells throughout the game. Imagine the ease in which the civ would have been wiped away if Jamestown tried to declare itself independent...

 

[dalgo]

But the game doesn't model this sort of thing at all. Instead it gives an exponential response to the cumulative liberty bells generated, but only allows independence if you kill off enough of your own people to make the instantaneous LB production exceed 50%.

I have played many games of Colonization and never yet had to resort to killing my own citizens in order to be able to declare independence. That tactic may work but it is certainly not my preferred option.

As other people have said, it makes no sense that 100% of your population supports independence but the game equation won't let you rebel due to the brain-dead equation used in the game.

There is a difference between the colony rebel sentiment, which just takes account of the colonists in that colony, and the overall rebel sentiment which includes all colonists. The former may indeed reach (or surpass) 100% but it is the latter that is required to pass 50% in order for you to declare independence.

 

[Shakauvm]

I have played many games of Colonization and never yet had to resort to killing my own citizens in order to be able to declare independence. That tactic may work but it is certainly not my preferred option.

A bit of an exaggeration, but it emphasizes my point. The game forces you to make lots of smaller cities in order to boom LBs, due to a flawed LB mechanic if you have a few large cities. It is counterintuitive, and stupid.

The LB mechanic is the main reason Colonization is a failed game.

There is a difference between the colony rebel sentiment, which just takes account of the colonists in that colony, and the overall rebel sentiment which includes all colonists. The former may indeed reach (or surpass) 100% but it is the latter that is required to pass 50% in order for you to declare independence.

I know; it doesn't change the fact that it's a stupid system whereby making large, successful towns hinders your ability to rebel. In real life, Philadelphia and Boston were centers for rebellious sentiment.

 

[ButSam]

Each citizen creating liberty bells can create 3/turn (or 6/turn for a statesman...your "Ben Franklin", if you will). There are 3 slots total per city.

Buildings can enhance liberty bells to be +100% with the Newspaper + Printing Press. This means 6/turn, or 12/turn for Statesman.

50% rebel sentiment is needed. One statesman provides enough for 6 colonists, per Axxon's numbers. You are allowed to have 3 total statesmen in the same city. Therefore, a city of up to size 18 could be coerced to reach 50% rebel sentiment.

Just how big do you want your Boston or Philidelphia to be?!

 

[Shakauvm]

Just how big do you want your Boston or Philidelphia to be?!

It's been a while, but even with max LB production in all my cities (3 statesmen / newspaper) my Rebel Sentiment peaked at around 43% and then slid back down.

I had to kill my own people to get them pissed off at the crown.

Very silly game design.

 

[Double Barrel]

Thanks for posting this info, Axxon! I've been playing this game for a couple of weeks (didn't have a gaming cpu when it was released, so I'm very late in getting it), and I've been struggling to find the balance. Now that I understand the mechanics of liberty bells, I think I can have a much more enjoyable experience. Well done!

I'd hate to break it to you all, but it is actually historically accurate to have the revolution be a quick burst. Until 1763, nearly all colonists in America were loyal Englishmen. They effectively declared war in 1776 officially (although shots were fired on both sides before then and they entered a de facto state of war in 1775, and the first Continental Congress was founded in 1774 -- also indicative of intense desire to separate).

So, I guess the sweet spot of about 10-20 turns to build up rebel sentiment and declare independence sounds about right. You don't start rebel sentiment with Columbus...and if people start to rebel, the king is more likely to build up his forces.

Very good points. At first I thought this liberty bell thing was cheese, but after reading your post, I think this is what the developers were going for in the end. Revolutionaries weren't arriving in 1492 with Columbus. The European powers were establishing colonies, and survival / prosperity was the primary focus of early colonies. I have no doubt that revolution was far from their minds at that point.

I started a new game last night with this in mind, as it seems to make a lot more sense in the spirit of things.

 

[Stephen1912]

"Revolutionaries weren't arriving in 1492 with Columbus. The European powers were establishing colonies, and survival / prosperity was the primary focus of early colonies. I have no doubt that revolution was far from their minds at that point."



That's very true, but the problem is, this ridiculous "liberty bell" game mechanic doesn't give you a say in the matter. You HAVE to produce liberty bells from the beginning to some degree, (unless you use the unrealistic tactic of creating "elder statesman villages" late in the game) or your competitors will get all the Founding Fathers, the expanding borders, and the production boost. If this happens, they'll grow quickly while you'll be stuck with a little peanut colony that takes 100 years to build a shipyard. A game set in history which rewards you for deviating from it is flawed.

I think it's safe to say that people like Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine would have been considerably less important had they been able to reach only six farmers rather than the whole of Boston and Philadelphia. The game mechanics could easily have been designed to reflect this.

 

[ck07]

Axxon, thanks. That explains a LOT. I had 5 cities with 13-19 pop. each, 2-3 statesmen each, and rebel sentiment stuck at 20%-30% each. I could not figure out why RS was not increasing.

I agree with those who think this is a poor game mechanic.

If it is somewhat better in the AOD mod, maybe I will try that.

 

[ck07]

Axxon, thanks. That explains a LOT. I had 5 cities with 13-19 pop. each, 2-3 statesmen each, and rebel sentiment stuck at 20%-30% each. I could not figure out why RS was not increasing.

I agree with those who think this is a poor game mechanic.

If it is somewhat better in the AOD mod, maybe I will try that.

 

[ShuShu62]

Excellent article AXXON thank you.

I disagree with the folks who have drawn the conclusion that it forces you to play liberty bells one way or another and that the resulting strategy is somehow unrealistic.

While the south in the US was more settled for economic reasons and thus tended to be more loyal to begin with, the North was always fueled by discontent with affairs back in England. But then there were many revolutions in many colonies, not just the american revolution.

Ranging from quick 0 to 60 revolutions in small colonies (Texas seems a good example) to long time loyal to quick revolution (americans loyal in french and indian war declaring independence 20 years later) while most follow an arch of ever increasing frustration with governorships that eventually result in independence... Canada, Australia seem to follow that arch although they did not require beating off REFs.

Furthermore, I believe all of these strategies have advantages and disadvantages in the game. all are appealing and all are viable, so I don't quite buy the 'game is horribly flawed' arguments I have read here and elsewhere.

The trade off's seem obvious... no liberty bells = small REF but no founding fathers. Large Cities = large liberty bells and many FF's but massive REF. Small cities can go either way... but are harder to defend against all threats.

 

[Sarin]

If this is still alive, I have a question regarding the REF AI. I am playing a mod, but I believe this part was untouched. I am wondering where will REF attack in this situation:

The map is randomly generated, with long, thin continent going all the way from north to south with no way how to reach west high seas without going around through Europe (I discovered western routes only after building a colony on western shore and built a ship there). Now the situation is that my westernmost colony is closer to high seas (and is a port) than my easternmost colony. Will REF attack from west or east?

 

[dalgo]

My prediction is that the REF will attack from the East. I have in fact played a game when I only had colonies on the West coast and the REF landed on the East coast (near where my ship had originally made landfall) and walked across the continent to attack me. However in that game they did send their empty warships around the NW passage to bombard my colonies.

Furthermore I have sometimes built an isolated colony on the West coast to exploit a particular resource (such as silver) and they have not been attacked by the REF either.

 

[jackelgull]

The REF shows up from where your first ship started out.

That said, to me, the biggest flaw with the liberty bell mechanic is that it is tied to the founding father system. Many of the founding fathers in RL didn't start out as revolutionaries. There should be a seperate system for that.

I would like for a different set of bonuses be tied to generating liberty bells early versus later. How about when a certain number of liberty bells in total are generated, then the colony experiences a bonus?

 

[Commander Bello]

Good idea, yet it would belong into the customization department, not into strategy articles.

 

[Publius]

I recently re-installed and started a game Civ4:Col after a hiatus of several years. I had eagerly bought the game when it first came out, but after a handful of frustrating games, I lost interest in Col and went back to BtS. Then, a couple weeks ago, I decided to give the game another chance – inspired perhaps by a biography of George Washington I was reading at the time.

This is the first time I have played with patch 1.01f. Many people, both in this forum and elsewhere, say good things about it. Its readme has this very intriguing line:

The Royal Expeditionary force increases less rapidly as the game progresses, depending on difficulty level.

I wondered how this change affects the things Axxon talks about. At first, I was going to ask if anyone had looked into it yet; but then I decided to see if I could figure it out myself – and I think I have. Before I start, I should say that I am not entirely proficient at reading code, but I think I understand it well enough to figure out this question. If someone else wants to have a look and either confirm or refute my findings, then I would welcome it. With that disclaimer aside, here's what I found.

The REF is all about bells - and for this it's the amount of bells accumulated in all your cities that counts. After 75 bells the King will increase the REF, ...

The threshold for the initial increase is now scaled to both speed and difficulty; at Normal Speed and Explorer Difficulty, it is still 75 bells for the initial increase. I don't know if it was scaled previously (and I didn't save copies of the old XMLs before I applied the patch, so I can't check.)

... , reset the bell "counter", and the next REF increase will require 10% more bells. ...

More significantly, when the "bell counter" is reset, the next increase now requires 25% more bells, not 10%, so REF increases will be less frequent. Either with or without the patch, the first increase comes at 75 bells (Explorer, Normal speed). Originally, the second increase came at 82, third at 90, fourth at 99. After 1.10f, the second increase comes at 93, third at 117, fourth at 146.

Note that the percentage increase is applied each time to the "new" threshold, not to the original value of 75; therefore the series (rounded down) is 75, then 75 x 125% = 93, then 93 x 125% = 117, etc.

... There's a bit of a twist though, in that the next REF increase will also add 10% more units to the REF. The game always rounds down AFAIK, so you won't get 1.1 units added.

This is also scaled to the Difficulty setting, and it has been reduced for all levels except Revolutionary. (Again, I don't know if this was scaled before the patch.) Instead of a flat rate-of-increase of 10%, this factor now ranges from 2% at Pilgrim to 11% at Revolutionary. This means a reduction in the rate at which the game increases the number of new units that are added each time; therefore later REF increases will be smaller in size (except at Revolutionary, where they are slightly larger.)

Conclusion: with the patch, the REF increases occur less frequently, and those later in the game are smaller in size. Hopefully this reduces the significant pre-patch disincentives to early production of bells.

----------------

There was also this interesting tidbit in the changelog for 1.01f:

Satisfying the King's demands delays increasing his expeditionary force.

It appears that for every 50g you agree to hand over to that greedy bastard on the throne, the "threshold multiplier" is increased by 1%. (This value is the 25% "more bells" – formerly 10% – that we talked about earlier). For example, say you make a 200g "donation" to the king. This triggers a 4% increase in the threshold multiplier, which starts at 25; 25 x 104% = 26; therefore, it will now require 26% more bells to trigger the next REF increase, instead of only 25% more. It's confusing since you are actually changing the rate-of-change; but basically, that 200g "donation" means an additional 7 or 8 bells you can generate before the REF will increase again. Note that these "donations" do not include taxes; it only counts if he comes to you directly demanding money, and you decide to pucker up.

 

[dalgo]

Thanks for that Publius, very interesting. However the small delay in increasing the REF is not enough to persuade me to hand over even 1 cent to the King.

 

[fantsu]

Me neither, but its good to know.
I only give the king money if I want to buy those cheap troops later on, not just for few extra bells.

 

[Publius]

Agreed 100%. I'm just pointing out the mechanism, not advocating it.

There are plenty of better ways to invest the money than "buying" a few "free" bells. 200g puts you 1/4 of the way towards buying an Expert Lumberjack or Ore Miner (or 1/3 of the way with Peter Minuit!). You could also buy a few more horses or muskets.

It is, however, nice to know that early in the game, when there are other good reasons to kiss the ring, that there is a small, face-saving bonus. Later of course, when I can afford it, I will suggest to His Majesty that there is something of mine that he is welcome to kiss.