Babylonia
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
Ok, so I gave Babylonia a try and quite a few things struck me:
1) Ok, so even though the Hanging Garden were of Mesopotamian origin, It is out of my way to build them as the gardens require Pantheon which means that I have to discover Polytheism. Imo, the gardens as a historical wonder for that region should be part of the puzzle rather than an impossible challenge which require you to either pick the wonder or Uhv. Secondly, even though Babylon built the gardens why is that it is so much easier to build them as Egypt. I mean Egypt has 50/50 chance of going for the Pyramids or the Gardens; if they go for the Garden I have no chance at all to compete with them and still complete my UHV (because if I go for Polytheism and Masonry; I will lose on writing). I find this a bit ludicrous since Babylon should have an advantage even if it is really meagre or slight when it comes to building their own wonders.
2) Going for Monarchy, there is no way for me not to found Buddhism and Hinduism. Some might say that this is a good and helpful thing but me being all for historicity dont like it one bit especially since its not like im even trying to play an alt hist game.
3) This might just be me but like a few turns before the Persians spawn, my Monarchy research goes up from single digits to double digits out of nowhere. Most of the time it goes from something like 9 to 15. This is extremely puzzling for me.
OK, we were talking about this a little while back, I dont know if you remember the full conversation or not (its on pg 2). That wheat does not affect Babylonian strategy at all or in a significant way anyways. The fact of the matter is that unless I actively try to conquer Shush (which will hinder my UHV), I am not going to get Shush until a very long time until it filps to me. By that time, the Persian spawn is on the verge and I am much better off building some cottages with my worker to speed up monarchy instead of going all the way east and waste 2 turns(of movement) to build a farm. As far as the unhealthiness is concerned, even though it is an annoyance, I haven't seen it become a hindrance to my growth. Outgrowing the other cities is the easy part of the UHV even if I whip (carefully). Anyways, even if some people do find this a problem, I think making the Hanging Gardens easily build able for Mesopotamia is a much better solution them relying on an unreliable source of wheat which will flip. All in all two tile expansion will make Ancient Civs look a lot more cleaner and their empires geographically accurate sized without having any real consequences.
1) Ok, so even though the Hanging Garden were of Mesopotamian origin, It is out of my way to build them as the gardens require Pantheon which means that I have to discover Polytheism. Imo, the gardens as a historical wonder for that region should be part of the puzzle rather than an impossible challenge which require you to either pick the wonder or Uhv. Secondly, even though Babylon built the gardens why is that it is so much easier to build them as Egypt. I mean Egypt has 50/50 chance of going for the Pyramids or the Gardens; if they go for the Garden I have no chance at all to compete with them and still complete my UHV (because if I go for Polytheism and Masonry; I will lose on writing). I find this a bit ludicrous since Babylon should have an advantage even if it is really meagre or slight when it comes to building their own wonders.
2) Going for Monarchy, there is no way for me not to found Buddhism and Hinduism. Some might say that this is a good and helpful thing but me being all for historicity dont like it one bit especially since its not like im even trying to play an alt hist game.
3) This might just be me but like a few turns before the Persians spawn, my Monarchy research goes up from single digits to double digits out of nowhere. Most of the time it goes from something like 9 to 15. This is extremely puzzling for me.
OK, we were talking about this a little while back, I dont know if you remember the full conversation or not (its on pg 2). That wheat does not affect Babylonian strategy at all or in a significant way anyways. The fact of the matter is that unless I actively try to conquer Shush (which will hinder my UHV), I am not going to get Shush until a very long time until it filps to me. By that time, the Persian spawn is on the verge and I am much better off building some cottages with my worker to speed up monarchy instead of going all the way east and waste 2 turns(of movement) to build a farm. As far as the unhealthiness is concerned, even though it is an annoyance, I haven't seen it become a hindrance to my growth. Outgrowing the other cities is the easy part of the UHV even if I whip (carefully). Anyways, even if some people do find this a problem, I think making the Hanging Gardens easily build able for Mesopotamia is a much better solution them relying on an unreliable source of wheat which will flip. All in all two tile expansion will make Ancient Civs look a lot more cleaner and their empires geographically accurate sized without having any real consequences.
Shush flips rather early, actually. Considerably earlier than Persia's spawn.
1) AI Egypt doesn't have a 50-50 chance to build the Gardens.
I'm also considering to lower Babylonia's base health - there's not that much competition with India anymore after all.
2) I haven't completely covered the repercussions of India's moved spawn so you probably did this at the wrong time. Buddhism will be tied to having Hinduism as state religion so that's not a problem anymore, and you could avoid founding any religion with Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Monarchy, which is the better choice than Meditation anyway because it allows you to build wonders right away.
Theoretically it's still quite easy for all 3000 BC civs to found Hinduism; don't know what to do about this except spawning Varanasi earlier and let the independents found it.
3) It's when the classical era tech penalty kicks in; I've already delayed this for Babylonia to make researching Monarchy by then possible (it definitely is, even with including Masonry).
1) AI Egypt doesn't have a 50-50 chance to build the Gardens.
I'm also considering to lower Babylonia's base health - there's not that much competition with India anymore after all.
2) I haven't completely covered the repercussions of India's moved spawn so you probably did this at the wrong time. Buddhism will be tied to having Hinduism as state religion so that's not a problem anymore, and you could avoid founding any religion with Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Monarchy, which is the better choice than Meditation anyway because it allows you to build wonders right away.
Theoretically it's still quite easy for all 3000 BC civs to found Hinduism; don't know what to do about this except spawning Varanasi earlier and let the independents found it.
3) It's when the classical era tech penalty kicks in; I've already delayed this for Babylonia to make researching Monarchy by then possible (it definitely is, even with including Masonry).
Usually It flips a bit earlier than the Phonetician spawn but I still don't see the use of taking it. I just raze it and take the bowmen.
Okay maybe not exactly 50% but in half my games when I got around to discovering Masonry (which I have to do after Writing); Egypt had already built the Hanging Gardens. Also do you plan on incorporating the Hanging Gardens into the Babylonian strategy?
I see
I dont this a good idea or not as it just occurred but why dont we start India in 3000 bc but make it really weak by not allowing them to build settlers, expand culture beyond two tiles, and higher penalties (ok the last one might not even help but you get what I mean) etc.....
We still spawn the independents and the only purpose of Indian between 3000 bc and 1500 bc would be the discovery of Hinduism and Buddhism. Once 1500 comes by those cities can flip and India can return to normal. Basically all the AI would be able to do in the first 1500 years is found the two religions and maybe build a worker and granary. Since India will be so weak once 1500 comes by we can catch them up on all techs, flips and take out the penalties. In essence the real game will start in 1500 bc but they will be around earlier for the purpose of religion.
Also please do consider limiting AI borders to two tiles until the discovery of certain techs or certain time period.
Me too; point is, you get the wheat by then.
Practically, they are already.
I don't like it because it would feel unnatural and forced.
That's what sparked the discussion about Shush's wheat in the first place.
Visard
Warlord
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2009
- Messages
- 214
I tried Babylon again. This time Emperor and Marathon speed. Now I was able win UHV. Marathon speed helps a little, there is more time to explore, conquer and settle.
My research path was Mining-Writing-Mysticism-Polytheism-Priesthood-Monarchy(Artist)-Code of Laws(Oracle)-Bronze Working-Hunting. Buddhism was founded in Shush.
I started this time building Worker and Bowmen, hired 2 mercenary Warriors and conquered Shush. Build second Bowmen and conquered Niwt-Rst(with worker) and Raized Jerusalem.
In Shush I built Worker and Settler and settled Kabul to get gems.
In Babylon I built third Worker, Granary, Library, Ziggurat, Sphinx, Hanging Gardens, Oracle, Isthar Gate and Pyramids. After Library was built I kept 2 scientist and after Sphinx 2 Artist.
Rest of the cities built Ziggurats and after that defensive units.
In early game the greatest problem with Babylon is happiness, you can't even get Monument early to make you happy. To overcome this obstacle I had to conquer Egypt to get gold and found Kabul to get gems.
My research path was Mining-Writing-Mysticism-Polytheism-Priesthood-Monarchy(Artist)-Code of Laws(Oracle)-Bronze Working-Hunting. Buddhism was founded in Shush.
I started this time building Worker and Bowmen, hired 2 mercenary Warriors and conquered Shush. Build second Bowmen and conquered Niwt-Rst(with worker) and Raized Jerusalem.
In Shush I built Worker and Settler and settled Kabul to get gems.
In Babylon I built third Worker, Granary, Library, Ziggurat, Sphinx, Hanging Gardens, Oracle, Isthar Gate and Pyramids. After Library was built I kept 2 scientist and after Sphinx 2 Artist.
Rest of the cities built Ziggurats and after that defensive units.
In early game the greatest problem with Babylon is happiness, you can't even get Monument early to make you happy. To overcome this obstacle I had to conquer Egypt to get gold and found Kabul to get gems.
Attachments
Not to ruïn al the joy about the new babylon. During autoplay from 3000BC for the states they again won a UHV. Not because they got plain luck. Even lost ur to barbs. maybe AI production rate for Babylon can be adjusted downward.
The whole point why they manage do achieve UHV's is because Persia does not kill them. If production goes down or perhaps the copper is removed from their lands, persia will have an easier time taking Babil
The whole point why they manage do achieve UHV's is because Persia does not kill them. If production goes down or perhaps the copper is removed from their lands, persia will have an easier time taking Babil
Is it their military strength that's the problem, or Persia's unwillingness to attack them?
I know in one game I ended up at war with them as well, but all their troops did was plundering my improvements, although I only had like two units in Babilu.
I was planning on reducing their unit production anyway, though.
I know in one game I ended up at war with them as well, but all their troops did was plundering my improvements, although I only had like two units in Babilu.
I was planning on reducing their unit production anyway, though.
El Bogus
Prince
Another thing: Babylon founded Buddhism in my game as Egypt (latest SVN version).
xcrissxcrossx
Prince
They just won a historical victory on my Portugal autoplay.
