Balance and Flavor Suggestions (long)

Xetal

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 28, 2009
Messages
82
I've been playing FFH2 for quite some time, and have won games as most civilizations and using a variety of tactics. I prefer the largest size map and the slowest game speed for long, epic, and complex games.

I have quite a few suggestions that I think will improve the game, and most of these suggestions are balance-based that require code tweaks more than complete reprogramming of game aspects.

1.) Weapons

Weapons seem to be kind of a funky aspect of the game for 2 reasons.

The first reason is that they buff all troops equally (a flat +1, +2, or +4 to strength). A Swordsman actually gets a larger percent increase from weapons than a Phalanx does, which seems strange. It would seem that the stronger troops should get as much benefit as the weaker troops. Going from 4 strength to 8 doubles your base strength, going from 12 to 16 is only a third stronger.

The second reason is because it's very spotty which troops get benefits from weapons and which do not, and this strongly favors melee troops over all others and is one of the primary reasons why archery unit are largely obsolete (even for city defenses). Why have a stack of 3/5 archers (even with a d-strike, first strike, and 25% city bonus) when you could have 5/5 swords with bronze (6/6 with iron) that can defend nearly as well, protect much more effectively against pillaging, and be used offensively whenever needed? Outside of that it's strange that some lower tier units are stronger than higher tier units simply due to the fact that they can use weapons. Soldiers of Kilmorph with Mithril are 8 strength, Palamanders are 7. Crusaders (that use a shield, sword, and full armor) gain no benefit from weapons at all, while archers gain no benefit but longbows can use bronze and iron?

My suggestion with weapons would be to give every single troop in the game a buff based on weapons. The buffs would be "Access to Bronze weapons", "Access to Iron weapons", and "Access to Mithril weapons".

This buff would have a different effect on different units.
Some units would have full weapons benefit, which would gain +15% strength for access to bronze weapons, +30% strength for access to Iron weapons, and +60% strength from access to mithril weapons.
Some units would have half weapons benefit, which would gain +7.5% strength for access to bronze, +15% for iron, and +30% for mithril.
Some units would have no weapons benefit, gaining +0% for bronze, +0% for iron, and +0% for mithril.

This would balance out weapons a lot better so they aren't an overpowering factor, but still very important. This would also allow you to have a smoother balance between troop types and each could be coded to one of the 3 categories for weapons benefit. It might require a little rebalancing on the troops, but it shouldn't be anything major. It would also balance out troops better so that you don't completely neglect some of the troops simply because they are categorized to not use weapons (It is currently very effective no matter your style of gameplay to ignore and not build archery units, Paramanders, Crusaders, Monks,

Suggested catagories:

Full Benefit: Most melee,

Half Benefit: All archery, All golems, All recon troops, All siege troops,

No Benefit: All beasts, All elementals/summons, all arcane troops,

Disciples/Mounted/other: case-by-case.

Full: Crusader, Paladin, Eidilon, Horseman, Ratha, Chariot, Knight.
Half: Paramander, Stygian Guard, Druid, , Horsearcher, Shadowrider, Fawns, Satyrs, Drowns.
None: Channeling2/Channeling3 religious units.

Some special units (like monks) and all heros should be case-by-case as well. In the current game, a large amount of heros get left in the dust because they can't use weapons (even heros that clearly should be able to). These heros should be able to benefit from improved gear like any standard unit.



Unit Balance

Perhaps less major than the weapons is unit balance. A lot of the units seem to be "Horse1, Horse2, and Horse3" where they unit essentially stays the same but just increases in raw strength as the game goes on. In addition to that, Melee units are pretty well unmatched when it comes to raw force.

A good example is mounted units. Horsemen, Chariots, and Horse Archers are all very similar, with the only real change being that they increase in strength from one tier to the other. They fill the same exact nitche even though a chariot -vs- horse archer -vs- mounted melee are fundamentally quite different.


See if you agree with this guide to units interacting with eachother:

Melee units: The staple in your army against which everything else is judged. They have fairly high strength, don't require a lot of special resources, and can be effective at attacking or defending. However, they move slowly.

Recon units: Generally a bit weaker than melee units, but able to have a strength advantage against them in the wilderness. Better mobility in the wilderness.

Assassin units: Mage and weak unit killers, very vulnerable if attacked.

Mounted Archer units: Ultimate harassing units. Not an overly high unit strength, but mobility, the highest withdraw rate in the game, and minor collateral damage allows them to soften enemy units up and then retreat to safety. Very weak if they're stuck on the defensive.

Chariot-type units: Low withdraw rate for a mounted unit, but strong against melee (especially while attacking).

Mounted Melee-type units: general mounted units, get a benefit against archers and not at all weak against melee units. They have fast movement speed, but like other mounted units they are weaker on defense than they are on offense.

Archery units: Great defenders, poor attackers. These units are best suited for holding strongpoints, forts, and cities.

Siege units: Specialize in collateral damage and weakening towns defenses. Generally have a high withdraw rate with medium attack, but weak defense.

Disciple and Arcane depend largely on the particular unit and schools of magic.


A more specific look at one slice of this (using mounted again as an example, would need testing to perfect troop balance) would be:

-Horseman: 5/3, 3 movement. Doesn't receive defensive bonuses, 25% withdraw chance, +50% vs. archery units, flanks siege weapons, 1 first strike.
-Horse Archer: 6/4, 3 movement. Doesn't receive defensive bonuses, 45% withdraw chance, +25% vs. melee units, -25% vs. archery units, 1 first strike, causes collateral damage to up to 4 units (10% health maximum).
-Chariot: 7/4, 2 movement. Doesn't receive defensive bonuses, 15% withdraw chance, +50% vs. melee units, 2-3 first strikes, -25% forest, ancient forest, and jungle attack.

Heros that are similar to the base type of troop could get similar bonuses/penalties, and this differentiation of the troops would give each its own purpose and unique feel.

Another look at how recon troops could be superior in the wild but inferior in a fair fight against other troops would be something like this:

Ranger: 6/5 strength, 2 movement, +25% forest attack, +25% forest defense, +25% jungle attack, +25% jungle defense, +50% ancient forest attack, +25% ancient forest defense, 2 first strikes when attacking or defending in jungle, forest, or ancient forest tiles. Double-movement in forest, new forest, jungle, and ancient forest tiles.

(Dwarven rangers get all their jungle/forest/ancient forest/new forest bonuses replaced with +25% hill attack, +25% hill defense, 2 first strikes when attacking or defending a hill tile, double movement in hills)

Something like this would give recon units, like rangers, a real role to play... while at the same time making them weaker than their archery counterparts at open-field or city defense, and weaker than their melee counterparts at open-field or city offense/defense.

Giving more specific roles to all types of units gives the game flavor and rewards players who think strategically.



Religion Balance

Each of the religions has a really neat theme and background, and it really makes the game feel different. This is different from normal BTS where the religions are essentially the same. I really, really like having the different religions in FFH2 make it feel completely different, even when you play the same civ.

Having said that, I think they could use a little balance. Some provide much more benefits from each other.

Fellowship of the leaves: This is a little on the strong side, especially for elf civs, but overall feels very good. The heroes are interesting, the dependence on ancient forests are interesting, and the unique civic is interesting. I think that it can be toned down a little, however. Specifically the ability to grow your cities twice as large as anyone else due to a combination of the extra food from the forests and the massive bonus to health and happiness in the cities. The only change I'd make to this religion is to reduce Guardian of Nature to +1 happiness for every 2 tiles of forest/jungle/ancient forest and +3 health/city.

Runes of Kilmorph: This is another religion that feels very balanced. It has two interesting heroes and reasonable benefits. Paramanders feel a little generic though, and perhaps should be given something interesting (Perhaps the ability to pay 50 gold to gain 1-4 experience while in a city?). Also Runes of Kilmorph makes you neutral, which seems silly. The religion is all about money, and there are those who are greedy and evil and those who are wealthy and share the wealth. I think that Runes should really not affect your faction, while Fellowship should shift it upwards by 1 (Evil to neutral, neutral to good).

Octopus Overlords: This religion really feels pretty weak. It is one of the early religions, so you really have to compare it to Fellowship and Runes. Fellowship provides heros that are just as strong, and economy/military that is stronger due to increased production and 3 food, 1 production, X commerce (from cottages) tiles. Runes provides a much stronger economy, equally good heroes, and equally good units. Overlords gives good heroes, no real economic benefit, and special units that will eventually all be destroyed by Glory Everlasting.

I would suggest perhaps slanting the Overlords theme to make them benefit a bit from water and coastline (they do, after all, worship their overlords in the deeps). This could be added as a general through their temples, the reason being that those who worship the deeps are feverishly motivated by the proximity to their masters: "Temple of the Overlords provides +1 happiness, +1 health, +1 production, and +10% increased commerce to coastal cities".

Order: This will be a pretty solid religion once Crusaders, Sphener, Valin, and Paladins get benefit from weapons. Their reduction to maintenance and access to one of the better religion spells in the game (Bless is an impressive spell) makes them effective. Their unique civic, Social Order, seems a bit on the weak side. Perhaps allow Social Order to get special benefit from Order-specific religious units: "Having a Prior or Confessor in your cities reduces that cities maintenance by 10%. having a Crusader in your cities reduces that cities crime rate by 10%".

Ashen Veil is masterfully done. The heroes being able to gain benefit from weapons would greatly benefit this, although the Meshabber of Dis really shouldn't get weapon benefits as he already gets +6 fire and +6 unholy (which represent his weapons).

Empyrean: A little on the weaker side. Radiant guards have too low of base strength. They come much later in the game than Axe/Swords, but have the same strength. Being the religion of "honor" it might make sense to give them a little defensive edge (honor being more resolute than aggressive in nature). They really should compare more with Champions than with Swords. Perhaps change them to: 4/5, +1 fire, 1 movement, Sun II, Can detect invisible, Guardian. Empyrean has the disadvantage of only having one hero... but that one hero is one of the best in the game, so it all balances out.

Council of Erus: A very strong religion, but only in certain situations. The one thing that needs to change because it is so easily abused for this religion is the ability for units to not be removed during war declarations. Perhaps it could be changed so that recon units are not removed during war declarations.



Civilizations

The last topic for balance I have is civs. I love the work that was done to make the civs all play very differently from eachother, but some are much stronger than others, so they could use a bit of balance.

Amurites are pretty balanced. The spellstaff on their mages makes their casters interesting, though I wish it wasn't quite a one-time shot. Perhaps their wizards and archmages should get an ability to create a new spellstaff at any city with a mage guild (takes 3 turns). This would let them refuel when they aren't currently fighting.

Their hero is a utility hero, and can be quite interesting to use as a provider of low rank spells to your units.

Balseraphs One of the best crafted civs in the game. The hero is interesting and unique, many of the units are interesting and unique, and the buildings are nothing short of awesome.

Bannor seem to be a one-trick pony. Sure, their crusade with demagog zergs is effective... but it is often very uninteresting and forces only one style of gameplay. They have no special buildings, very limited special units, and their civ trait (Guardsman to melee/archery units) is again something useful but kind of boring.

Not really sure what to do about the Bannor, but their gameplay seems less interesting than other civs.

Calabim is another very interesting and rewarding to play civ. The only real downside I see for the Calabim is that they don't benefit much from Fellowship, Don't benefit from Ashen (Demon units can't be vampires), don't benefit from Overlords (Demon units can't be vampires), and their feeding can really weaken your economy. This makes Runes of Kilmorph a strong choice for the Calabim, but it automatically makes you neutral... this seems kind of strange because this can be a -good- thing, as you can make Druids vampiric, but not Eidilons. The other good choice is Order for vampiric Paladins (think about that for a second) and the -40% maintenance building making up for the 20% you lose out from your altered courthouse. The third religion that benefits Calabim is Empyrean for the radiant guards (which can be upgraded into vampires and then vampire lords) and Chalid, which is an absolute wrecking ball, especially with 11 defensive strength and the ability to twincast Wraiths.

That leaves the best three religious choices for the evil, vampiric civilization as worshiping the sun, worshiping a religion that fights the unnatural, and worshiping the honorable god of crafting. Seems strange, but it's true. Esus, which makes sense as a vampiric-religion, is also pretty solid, but I've found that they're not quite as well suited as Order, Runes, or Empyrean.

Clan of Embers is an interesting civ. I like how unique their units are and how they are all about brute force (Mass produced Ogres, with 2 strength more than Champions... ouch!). Their civ spell is a bit too powerful in the beginning. I've had games where I've absolutely blown past all the other civs in technology research because my swarm of goblins around the world were getting so many goodie huts. The barbarian civilization ahead of everyone else by 5 techs seems kind of strange. Perhaps a more appropriate spell would be to give them X number of units in each city, where the number is based on city population and the types of units are the strongest ones that the city can produce.

Dorviello seem to be pretty much a Clan of Embers clone. They focus on stronger units faster (like the clan), have poor research (like the clan), lack the end-game siege units (like the clan), and can start out friendly with the barbarians (like the clan).

It seems like something should be done to differentiate the Dorviello from the Clan. I do like all the unique Dorviello units, even if they are statistically the same as the standard units. It adds a lot of flavor to have your units with different names and looks.

Elohim is a pretty solid good civ. Their ability to see the unique features is interesting and unique, and their tolerant bonus is also very interesting. Their hero is also unique and interesting, able to be used to directly fight the AC. The only real balance issue I have with the Elohim is that both their unique units, the devout and monk, are largely useless.

The Devout is only good for scouting enemy territory. It is weaker (5 attack instead of 7) and unable to pick off casters... and receives no real bonus to offset this weakness except for the ability to cleanse city runes. Perhaps devouts should be given something more direct in order to lower the AC (in the way that the stigmata of the unborn can directly increase). I would suggest a promotion that only Devouts can get that reduces the AC by 1, and requires demon-slaying 1 or undead-slaying 1. This would allow the Elohim to lower the AC while they can keep their devouts alive.

Monks are just inferior. They are only 6 strength with demon-slaying, and unable to use weapons. By contrast, champions with Iron are 8 and champions with mithril are 10. Monks are quickly built and can be built a little earlier in the game, but even considering that the only reason I would consider using monks for long is if I am unable to secure Iron. My suggestion for monks would be to allow them to Matyr themselves in order to consecrate nearby demons and undead (Consecrate could be a debuff that adds "-40% strength, 1 less xp during successful combat" to the demons and has a 25% chance to wear off every turn. This would allow your monks to be early 6 strength units, and then later on protect you from the evils of the world (which is really where the Elohim seem like they should shine).

Grigori have the adventurer, which is the one thing that is really unique and powerful for their civilization. Unfortunately, this eats up your great person points, which gives you a technology/economic disadvantage. To further that disadvantage, you're agnostic so you cannot pick up a religion (like Runes) to boost that economy up and increase happiness for your cities. Because of this, it seems that the Grigori is always falling behind in technology and that their economy. I think the fundamental change that needs to be made here is that the Agnostic trait needs to provide an advantage along with the disadvantage of being unable to have a religion. +1 happiness, +1 health, and +1 commerce to your cities seems like it would be appropriate as an advantage to help offset the no-religion disadvantage.

As far as the lack of great people go, I think having the adventurer as such a versatile and strong unit is plenty to offset this.

Hippus are well done. They always have horses and their mounted units move further and withdraw easier, and they can hire units. This provides them with a good niche. There really isn't much to change about the Hippus.

Illians are also well done and interesting. The agnostic personality again could use the +1 happiness, +1 health, and +1 commerce boost to help offset the massive disadvantage that not having a religion has.

The Stir From Slumber requirement to finish off a civ seems a little wierd as the only way you can possibly accomplish it. Often times someone else will get the one last hit needed to finish them off, and that can massively affect your game. I think it would be better if Stir From Slumber could be produced if you finish off a player -or- if you've completed The Draw. This would allow you to produce Stir From Slumber earlier if you kill a player, but allow you to produce it anyhow a little later if you do not.

Infernal is a good civ and is balanced by the fact that you only start mid-game.

Khazad are also well done. They have stronger units in many cases, but lack magic. They also can get a large boost from having money laying around. One thing I would change about the AI is for them to focus on keeping enough gold around to keep the boost going to their cities.

Their hero, Maros, is a really good match for the Khazad. 12 base defense +50% causes him to be a prime city defender. The ability to convert forest into battering rams on offense gives him a solid role on the offense as well. He can create siege weapons for you and defend your offensive stack.

Kuriotates are kind of interesting. I like the concept of their sprawling cities, but I wish their settlements would play a bit of a larger role in the game.

I would like to see the settlements become more of low-yield cities. Perhaps give them the ability to produce a limited selection of buildings (any temple where there is the appropriate religion, monument, palisade, walls, training yard, archery range) as well as let them have normal production of the units that their buildings allow, and allow some population (limit it to 3 population). The settlements can still produce culture, production, and commerce normally... though it is obviously limited by the 3 population and lower selection of buildings. Have maintenence exist in these settlements as well, but reduced by a significant amount (perhaps -75%, which would allow the city-states civ if they grow large enough to reduce their maintenance to zero... very Kuriotate-ish). Have the settlements still automatically destroyed when captured, but producing half the effect to the AC.

I think these changes would round out the Kuriotates some so that they can reasonably expand beyond their couple of mega-cities, but that the settlements would still be far inferior to the normal cities of other civs.

Lunan are another very well thought out civ. Their unique resource, faster water movement, and unique water tile improvement all make them extremely effective as a coastal and island civilization.

Liosalfar are a bit forced into Fellowship of the Leaves, but this isn't such a bad thing. They are able to produce HUGE cities surrounded by ancient forests and cottages, proving to be one of the strongest economies in the game.

The one thing that seems weird about all this is that it is very hard to protect against pillaging. the 50% ancient forest defense means that your troops have a hard time preventing pillaging in their own forests. Perhaps ancient forests should provide 50% defense for the owner and allies, and only 25% for enemies? The civ trait (+1 offense to archers) seems pretty silly as well, as even with +1 strength archers are terrible offensive troops. Instead it might be more appropriate to provide +1 first strike to all archer and recon troops, or +25% forest and ancient forest attack and defense to all troops.

The other thing that seems very bland is their hero. He's 6/6 with a defensive strike. That's about it. It seems like he should have something interesting or forest-related that would provide a unique aspect. Perhaps an interesting suggestion would be to give him an ability: "Gilden's Gift: Removes 4-9 experience from Gilden Silveric and grants the experience to an archery unit on the tile". This would allow him to be of some use later in the game after there are units that make his paltry 6/6 strength meaningless.

Luchurip have a great theme, but it has a little weirdness to it as it is currently implemented. The golems are great, but they're outshined by other units. The Iron golem is 10 strength, the same as a champion with mithril weapons... but the champion heals on its own, gets 25% vs. melee, and has a HUGE advantage because it can get promotions. The same is true about the wood golem compared to a swords/axeman with iron, gargoyle compared to longbow, bone golem to immortal, etc... The change of weapons to a +% bonus will make a big difference as the weapons won't make golems obsolete as badly. The other thing that is strange is the ability to give fireball to ALL your golems. Having the luchurip be the best mages in the game due to fireball-spitting golems seems to really not fit in with the civ. It might be more appropriate for the Blasting Workshop to provide your golems with +1 fire damage instead.

Another thing about the Luchurip is the way their hero works. It is very awkward to have your entire game based around how well your hero levels up. There are a lot of things you could do with the golem civ to make the hero interesting (For example, let Barnaxus transfer his consciousness into any golem you possess, giving them his experience and promotions). This would make him unique in that he would get stronger as you built stronger golems. A clockwerk Barnaxus or bone golem Barnaxus would be neat. The ability to get +10-+50% boost to your golems could instead come from your access to weapons (or in this case, superior crafting materials). If the weapon-change is implemented to percentage, it might be appropriate to slightly reduce some of the mass-produced golems in strength (Wood to 5, Iron to 9).

Lastly, the slow regeneration for golems makes sense elsewhere, but while they're in a city with a sculpter's studio, they really should repair quickly.

Malakim seem to be just a little bland. Their lightbringers and ability to pre-build priests is interesting, but other than that there is very little unique about them. It might make their religious fervor aspect seem a little more interesting if they had reason to focus on religious units. A bonus of +1 fire strength to all religious units might make it beneficial to focus on the religious units instead of the standard ones.

Mercurians, like the inferal, and interesting, unique, and balanced by their later start.

Sheaim are fun to play for the creature zerg that they can produce. Their hero is amazing for late-game, and the various creatures that they summon instead of having standard troops makes the civ feel very different to play than any other civ.

The only real downside right now is that the issue with weapons can make the Sheaim a little underwhelming. Minotaurs, with 8/11 and +25% city defense can seem pretty awesome until you consider that Champions with mithril are 10/10 with +25% melee. Many of the other units suffer the same disadvantage, and a further disadvantage is that it's basically game-over when someone builds Glory Everlasting. Sheaim really needs to play Ashen Vale to get the most of out the civ, and Glory Everlasting kills off your Chaos Marauders, Succubus, Tar Demons, Eidilons, Beasts of Agares, Mardero and Mishabber of Dis. At this point your best option is to start a new game, which is frustrating and not really all that fun.

Sidar can mass produce shades using disciple or arcane units, which is very overpowered. You can abuse Order (Spirit guide + disciples + shade production creates an absolute shade factory).

I like the way the Sidar rely on shades to power them, but it is currently very abusable and limits your strats to those that abuse your shade creation. I think it would perhaps be best if your shade production followed similar rules that your great person building followed: Each takes a bit more resources than the last. Specifically, my suggestion is that the first shade requires a level 4 unit, the next shade requires a level 5 unit, etc. This caps out with shades requiring level 9 units each. Beyond that, Spirit Guides should not work to pass on experience when creating a shade.

Svartalfar are another elf race, requiring Fellowship of Leaves to really take advantage of them. Their Sinister ability seems to be a little weak, perhaps upgrading it to +1 offensive strength and +1 first strike to recon units would make it a little more meaningful.



Anyhow, I know it's a really really long post, but I do enjoy the mod a lot, and would like to see the balance tweaked a little to make it even more enjoyable for everyone. Thanks for the time reading, if you've made it this far ;)
 
Great post to read. As someone modding different aspects into a mod, there are a lot of great ideas here.
 
I agreewith you about the weapons.

Octopus overlords though, is not, not, NOT weak by any stretch of the imagination. I don't think you've looked at priest units at all, judging by your lack of comments. Please play with the OO priest unit a bit (cultist). They have the tsunami spell, which is awesomely powerful, and has a radius of 2. granted, it oonly works on coastal cities, but it devastates them. I've taken heavily defended cities single handedly, with one cultist. They can also walk on water, as can the drowns. And theirhigh priests can summon krakens, which are the most powerful naval unit in the game. Hemah is also a powerful archmage hero, and very worthwhile getting.

I'm not sure how you can really complain about Glory Everlasting being a downside for them. It takes 15,000 :hammers: to build. I've never actually seen it done, ever, unless I did it myself, and it took a very long time to do. It's a distant possibility, little more. and hardly a viable military tactic when you're crushing someone.

I also disagree that CoE should lose it's ability to stay in territory when declaring war. Actually, I don't think that should be an ability at all, because it makes no sense in the slightest. I personally hate the whole concept of being removed from borders, and I think it should always be possible to stay in, regardless of religion, because it's just silly to be magically teleported out by some arbitrary game rule.
 
Just a few comments:
OO and Empyrean are not weak by any stretch of the imagination. WarKirby commented on OO, and Empyrean gets Chalid, one of the most powerful heroes in the game, and given his early availability (relative to all of the other uber-powerful units), easily one of the best. Empyrean also gets Rathas, Radiant Guard, and the sabillity to upgrade said units into Sun II Champions/Knights which is also very, very powerful. Oh, and Chalid's +1 overcouncil vote can be used to create dgopile wars and whatnot.

The sidar seem overpowered because of your settings. Huge maps and slow speeds favor the player tremendously in ffh. Doubly so for the Sidar because of their mechanic. Play a game at normal speed on a standard size map or a large map with a larger civ density and they won't seem so op. Also, you seem to have completely overlooked the Doviello unique upgrade mechanic and the awesomeness thereof. You also seem to have overlooked the Luchuirp's ability to cast repair on their golem armies, being able to heal them with limitless adapts what other civs do with limited high priests. The luchuirp also have the ability to grant fire II to all built golems at sorcery, meaning every one of your golems will be able to cast fireball. They also gain access to hidden at necromancy which is very useful against the AI and unsuspecting human opponents. Their worldspell is also extremely powerful, both in terms of builder applications and early combat. And they get access to all the dwarven lategame spiffyness: Dwarven druids and Dwarven shadows. Their are a few other things, but those are the big ones.
 
Impressive post!

Weapons idea is good, but like WarKirby, I disagree with the OO being weak. They might get little economic benefit, but their very solid militarily. Very, very, very, very solid. Stygians Guards are one of the best units in the game (value wise).

As for Empyrean being weak, I agree with that. Radiant Guards need a buff, but Chalid needs another nerf. The reglion is too unlike its lore currently.

A little mistake I noticed: Runes doesn't turn you neutral. It does turn evil neutral though.
Also, take a look at the lore forum or one of Ekolite NES stories to see how Fellowship can be a quite evil religion.
 
Hah ha! my post was 3k characters too long, I'll section it off.

I've been playing FFH2 for quite some time, and have won games as most civilizations and using a variety of tactics. I prefer the largest size map and the slowest game speed for long, epic, and complex games.

I have quite a few suggestions that I think will improve the game, and most of these suggestions are balance-based that require code tweaks more than complete reprogramming of game aspects.

1.) Weapons

Weapons seem to be kind of a funky aspect of the game for 2 reasons.

The first reason is that they buff all troops equally (a flat +1, +2, or +4 to strength). A Swordsman actually gets a larger percent increase from weapons than a Phalanx does, which seems strange. It would seem that the stronger troops should get as much benefit as the weaker troops. Going from 4 strength to 8 doubles your base strength, going from 12 to 16 is only a third stronger.

The second reason is because it's very spotty which troops get benefits from weapons and which do not, and this strongly favors melee troops over all others and is one of the primary reasons why archery unit are largely obsolete (even for city defenses). Why have a stack of 3/5 archers (even with a d-strike, first strike, and 25% city bonus) when you could have 5/5 swords with bronze (6/6 with iron) that can defend nearly as well, protect much more effectively against pillaging, and be used offensively whenever needed? Outside of that it's strange that some lower tier units are stronger than higher tier units simply due to the fact that they can use weapons. Soldiers of Kilmorph with Mithril are 8 strength, Palamanders are 7. Crusaders (that use a shield, sword, and full armor) gain no benefit from weapons at all, while archers gain no benefit but longbows can use bronze and iron?

My suggestion with weapons would be to give every single troop in the game a buff based on weapons. The buffs would be "Access to Bronze weapons", "Access to Iron weapons", and "Access to Mithril weapons".

This buff would have a different effect on different units.
Some units would have full weapons benefit, which would gain +15% strength for access to bronze weapons, +30% strength for access to Iron weapons, and +60% strength from access to mithril weapons.
Some units would have half weapons benefit, which would gain +7.5% strength for access to bronze, +15% for iron, and +30% for mithril.
Some units would have no weapons benefit, gaining +0% for bronze, +0% for iron, and +0% for mithril.

I realize what you are trying to accomplish, unfortunately, even though the impact of this is "balanced" when you compare units to other units, it makes veterans less valuable by decreasing the value of promotions and adding more at unit creation.

This would balance out weapons a lot better so they aren't an overpowering factor, but still very important. This would also allow you to have a smoother balance between troop types and each could be coded to one of the 3 categories for weapons benefit. It might require a little rebalancing on the troops, but it shouldn't be anything major. It would also balance out troops better so that you don't completely neglect some of the troops simply because they are categorized to not use weapons (It is currently very effective no matter your style of gameplay to ignore and not build archery units, Paramanders, Crusaders, Monks,

Suggested catagories:

Full Benefit: Most melee,

Half Benefit: All archery, All golems, All recon troops, All siege troops,

No Benefit: All beasts, All elementals/summons, all arcane troops,

Disciples/Mounted/other: case-by-case.

Full: Crusader, Paladin, Eidilon, Horseman, Ratha, Chariot, Knight.
Half: Paramander, Stygian Guard, Druid, , Horsearcher, Shadowrider, Fawns, Satyrs, Drowns.
None: Channeling2/Channeling3 religious units.

Some special units (like monks) and all heros should be case-by-case as well. In the current game, a large amount of heros get left in the dust because they can't use weapons (even heros that clearly should be able to). These heros should be able to benefit from improved gear like any standard unit.

some units should be able to use weapons thamatically, but for many this would be unbalancing, (eg. crusaders/eidolons) even with your weaker version.

Unit Balance

Perhaps less major than the weapons is unit balance. A lot of the units seem to be "Horse1, Horse2, and Horse3" where they unit essentially stays the same but just increases in raw strength as the game goes on. In addition to that, Melee units are pretty well unmatched when it comes to raw force.

A good example is mounted units. Horsemen, Chariots, and Horse Archers are all very similar, with the only real change being that they increase in strength from one tier to the other. They fill the same exact nitche even though a chariot -vs- horse archer -vs- mounted melee are fundamentally quite different.


See if you agree with this guide to units interacting with eachother:

Melee units: The staple in your army against which everything else is judged. They have fairly high strength, don't require a lot of special resources, and can be effective at attacking or defending. However, they move slowly.

Recon units: Generally a bit weaker than melee units, but able to have a strength advantage against them in the wilderness. Better mobility in the wilderness.

Assassin units: Mage and weak unit killers, very vulnerable if attacked.

Mounted Archer units: Ultimate harassing units. Not an overly high unit strength, but mobility, the highest withdraw rate in the game, and minor collateral damage allows them to soften enemy units up and then retreat to safety. Very weak if they're stuck on the defensive.

Chariot-type units: Low withdraw rate for a mounted unit, but strong against melee (especially while attacking).

Mounted Melee-type units: general mounted units, get a benefit against archers and not at all weak against melee units. They have fast movement speed, but like other mounted units they are weaker on defense than they are on offense.

Archery units: Great defenders, poor attackers. These units are best suited for holding strongpoints, forts, and cities.

Siege units: Specialize in collateral damage and weakening towns defenses. Generally have a high withdraw rate with medium attack, but weak defense.

also, they should be largely ineffective in the field. (give them 1/4 the strength with +300% city attack for example)

Disciple and Arcane depend largely on the particular unit and schools of magic.

good ideas, i do feel archers have a rather limited window in some cases

A more specific look at one slice of this (using mounted again as an example, would need testing to perfect troop balance) would be:

-Horseman: 5/3, 3 movement. Doesn't receive defensive bonuses, 25% withdraw
chance, +50% vs. archery units, flanks siege weapons, 1 first strike.

5/3 seems a bit powerful. No defense bonuses is used to stimulate the lower defense, which it correctly does often. You trying to get me run over by the hippus?

-Horse Archer: 6/4, 3 movement. Doesn't receive defensive bonuses, 45% withdraw chance, +25% vs. melee units, -25% vs. archery units, 1 first strike, causes collateral damage to up to 4 units (10% health maximum).

looks like the niche it thematically should fill, keep in mind the tech levels for these troops though, HAs having a 2:str: bonus over horsemen is intended

-Chariot: 7/4, 2 movement. Doesn't receive defensive bonuses, 15% withdraw chance, +50% vs. melee units, 2-3 first strikes, -25% forest, ancient forest, and jungle attack.

Chariot < HA techwise. Keep the balance. They already have a -25% hill attack in addition to what you stated

Heros that are similar to the base type of troop could get similar bonuses/penalties, and this differentiation of the troops would give each its own purpose and unique feel.

Why of course :)

Another look at how recon troops could be superior in the wild but inferior in a fair fight against other troops would be something like this:

Ranger: 6/5 strength, 2 movement, +25% forest attack, +25% forest defense, +25% jungle attack, +25% jungle defense, +50% ancient forest attack, +25% ancient forest defense, 2 first strikes when attacking or defending in jungle, forest, or ancient forest tiles. Double-movement in forest, new forest, jungle, and ancient forest tiles.

do you find rangers overpowered? keep the 7 str. They have access to woodsman promos, hye dont really reuire the buffs you listed.

(Dwarven rangers get all their jungle/forest/ancient forest/new forest bonuses replaced with +25% hill attack, +25% hill defense, 2 first strikes when attacking or defending a hill tile, double movement in hills)

1) do dwarves get rangers? oh duh, they have a beastmaster UU...
2) doesnt seem appropriate. A dwarven ranger is still a rnager, just one that is good at moving in hills.


Something like this would give recon units, like rangers, a real role to play... while at the same time making them weaker than their archery counterparts at open-field or city defense, and weaker than their melee counterparts at open-field or city offense/defense.

Giving more specific roles to all types of units gives the game flavor and rewards players who think strategically.



Religion Balance

Each of the religions has a really neat theme and background, and it really makes the game feel different. This is different from normal BTS where the religions are essentially the same. I really, really like having the different religions in FFH2 make it feel completely different, even when you play the same civ.

Having said that, I think they could use a little balance. Some provide much more benefits from each other.

Fellowship of the leaves: This is a little on the strong side, especially for elf civs, but overall feels very good. The heroes are interesting, the dependence on ancient forests are interesting, and the unique civic is interesting. I think that it can be toned down a little, however. Specifically the ability to grow your cities twice as large as anyone else due to a combination of the extra food from the forests and the massive bonus to health and happiness in the cities. The only change I'd make to this religion is to reduce Guardian of Nature to +1 happiness for every 2 tiles of forest/jungle/ancient forest and +3 health/city.

GoN is only "overpowered" when you give up at least half your improvements, normally tiles you'd not be owrking, but with the extra pop... For non-elves it seems it would weaken your economy in a way.

Runes of Kilmorph: This is another religion that feels very balanced. It has two interesting heroes and reasonable benefits. Paramanders feel a little generic though, and perhaps should be given something interesting (Perhaps the ability to pay 50 gold to gain 1-4 experience while in a city?). Also Runes of Kilmorph makes you neutral, which seems silly. The religion is all about money, and there are those who are greedy and evil and those who are wealthy and share the wealth. I think that Runes should really not affect your faction, while Fellowship should shift it upwards by 1 (Evil to neutral, neutral to good).

Sucellus (Cerunnos? i dont know who the god of nature is. Is Cerunnos a god or an archangel?) is dead. (s)He doesnt care if his followers enslave the inferior races, or are the ones trying to free them. RoK is areligion about hard work and (for lack of a better word) sturdiness. RoK temples worship (memory lapse...) Kilmorph (! that took me a minute), although many khazad souls end up in Mammon's vault...

Octopus Overlords: This religion really feels pretty weak. It is one of the early religions, so you really have to compare it to Fellowship and Runes. Fellowship provides heros that are just as strong, and economy/military that is stronger due to increased production and 3 food, 1 production, X commerce (from cottages) tiles. Runes provides a much stronger economy, equally good heroes, and equally good units. Overlords gives good heroes, no real economic benefit, and special units that will eventually all be destroyed by Glory Everlasting.

OO military>RoK military>FoL military. Also, culture is NOT cheap. Have you looked at stygian guard vs. paramnder lately? Stygians have march, demon, water walking, and the ability to use weapons. Paramdners... have medic 1, a weakened form of march for the whole stack. Cultists have tsunami. Stonewardens... i dont know what they have (I think transmutate got cut a while back?). That should say somehting about how weak it is.

I would suggest perhaps slanting the Overlords theme to make them benefit a bit from water and coastline (they do, after all, worship their overlords in the deeps). This could be added as a general through their temples, the reason being that those who worship the deeps are feverishly motivated by the proximity to their masters: "Temple of the Overlords provides +1 happiness, +1 health, +1 production, and +10% increased commerce to coastal cities".

Order: This will be a pretty solid religion once Crusaders, Sphener, Valin, and Paladins get benefit from weapons. Their reduction to maintenance and access to one of the better religion spells in the game (Bless is an impressive spell) makes them effective. Their unique civic, Social Order, seems a bit on the weak side. Perhaps allow Social Order to get special benefit from Order-specific religious units: "Having a Prior or Confessor in your cities reduces that cities maintenance by 10%. having a Crusader in your cities reduces that cities crime rate by 10%".

Social Order =/= weak. Think about it. Run agrarianism, have sanitation and construction. Build warriors, crusaders, whatever and station them in your cities. The sky is the limit.

Ashen Veil is masterfully done. The heroes being able to gain benefit from weapons would greatly benefit this, although the Meshabber of Dis really shouldn't get weapon benefits as he already gets +6 fire and +6 unholy (which represent his weapons).

Nobody's complaining about AV being weak. Diseased corspses have base of 7 str, at corrupted spirit. Thats not beaten until iron champions. The dark side has cookies, they dont need mithril wielders of the plague.

Empyrean: A little on the weaker side. Radiant guards have too low of base strength. They come much later in the game than Axe/Swords, but have the same strength. Being the religion of "honor" it might make sense to give them a little defensive edge (honor being more resolute than aggressive in nature). They really should compare more with Champions than with Swords. Perhaps change them to: 4/5, +1 fire, 1 movement, Sun II, Can detect invisible, Guardian. Empyrean has the disadvantage of only having one hero... but that one hero is one of the best in the game, so it all balances out.

Its just a military religon. Only on the weaker side if you roleplay a peaceful Varn (hes not that peacful but, meh).

Council of Erus: A very strong religion, but only in certain situations. The one thing that needs to change because it is so easily abused for this religion is the ability for units to not be removed during war declarations. Perhaps it could be changed so that recon units are not removed during war declarations.

All religions are strong only in certain situations. EVERYTHING is only strong in certain situations. Infantry suck when going against cavalry. Cavalry suck in forest. Empyrean sucks as a builder religoin. OO sucks inland. Arcane units sucks for the Khazad. I beleive that ability is SUPPOSED to be abused.
 
Civilizations

The last topic for balance I have is civs. I love the work that was done to make the civs all play very differently from eachother, but some are much stronger than others, so they could use a bit of balance.

Amurites are pretty balanced. The spellstaff on their mages makes their casters interesting, though I wish it wasn't quite a one-time shot. Perhaps their wizards and archmages should get an ability to create a new spellstaff at any city with a mage guild (takes 3 turns). This would let them refuel when they aren't currently fighting.

Enchantment III spell gives you the spellstaff promotion, regardless of civ. Wizard spellstaves are supposed to be a one use, emergency thing,.

Their hero is a utility hero, and can be quite interesting to use as a provider of low rank spells to your units.

Balseraphs One of the best crafted civs in the game. The hero is interesting and unique, many of the units are interesting and unique, and the buildings are nothing short of awesome.

Bannor seem to be a one-trick pony. Sure, their crusade with demagog zergs is effective... but it is often very uninteresting and forces only one style of gameplay. They have no special buildings, very limited special units, and their civ trait (Guardsman to melee/archery units) is again something useful but kind of boring.

Not really sure what to do about the Bannor, but their gameplay seems less interesting than other civs.

Calabim is another very interesting and rewarding to play civ. The only real downside I see for the Calabim is that they don't benefit much from Fellowship, Don't benefit from Ashen (Demon units can't be vampires), don't benefit from Overlords (Demon units can't be vampires), and their feeding can really weaken your economy. This makes Runes of Kilmorph a strong choice for the Calabim, but it automatically makes you neutral... this seems kind of strange because this can be a -good- thing, as you can make Druids vampiric, but not Eidilons. The other good choice is Order for vampiric Paladins (think about that for a second) and the -40% maintenance building making up for the 20% you lose out from your altered courthouse. The third religion that benefits Calabim is Empyrean for the radiant guards (which can be upgraded into vampires and then vampire lords) and Chalid, which is an absolute wrecking ball, especially with 11 defensive strength and the ability to twincast Wraiths.

That leaves the best three religious choices for the evil, vampiric civilization as worshiping the sun, worshiping a religion that fights the unnatural, and worshiping the honorable god of crafting. Seems strange, but it's true. Esus, which makes sense as a vampiric-religion, is also pretty solid, but I've found that they're not quite as well suited as Order, Runes, or Empyrean.

I think Order is the best for calabim. Social order gives you a nice big feasting city and an easy way to sustain your economy elsewhere.

Clan of Embers is an interesting civ. I like how unique their units are and how they are all about brute force (Mass produced Ogres, with 2 strength more than Champions... ouch!). Their civ spell is a bit too powerful in the beginning. I've had games where I've absolutely blown past all the other civs in technology research because my swarm of goblins around the world were getting so many goodie huts. The barbarian civilization ahead of everyone else by 5 techs seems kind of strange. Perhaps a more appropriate spell would be to give them X number of units in each city, where the number is based on city population and the types of units are the strongest ones that the city can produce.

the potential for the best research at teh beginnin ghighlights the Clan(/doviello)'s speciality: warfare, especially early.

Dorviello seem to be pretty much a Clan of Embers clone. They focus on stronger units faster (like the clan), have poor research (like the clan), lack the end-game siege units (like the clan), and can start out friendly with the barbarians (like the clan).

It seems like something should be done to differentiate the Dorviello from the Clan. I do like all the unique Dorviello units, even if they are statistically the same as the standard units. It adds a lot of flavor to have your units with different names and looks.

Elohim is a pretty solid good civ. Their ability to see the unique features is interesting and unique, and their tolerant bonus is also very interesting. Their hero is also unique and interesting, able to be used to directly fight the AC. The only real balance issue I have with the Elohim is that both their unique units, the devout and monk, are largely useless.

The Devout is only good for scouting enemy territory. It is weaker (5 attack instead of 7) and unable to pick off casters... and receives no real bonus to offset this weakness except for the ability to cleanse city runes. Perhaps devouts should be given something more direct in order to lower the AC (in the way that the stigmata of the unborn can directly increase). I would suggest a promotion that only Devouts can get that reduces the AC by 1, and requires demon-slaying 1 or undead-slaying 1. This would allow the Elohim to lower the AC while they can keep their devouts alive.

Monks are just inferior. They are only 6 strength with demon-slaying, and unable to use weapons. By contrast, champions with Iron are 8 and champions with mithril are 10. Monks are quickly built and can be built a little earlier in the game, but even considering that the only reason I would consider using monks for long is if I am unable to secure Iron. My suggestion for monks would be to allow them to Matyr themselves in order to consecrate nearby demons and undead (Consecrate could be a debuff that adds "-40% strength, 1 less xp during successful combat" to the demons and has a 25% chance to wear off every turn. This would allow your monks to be early 6 strength units, and then later on protect you from the evils of the world (which is really where the Elohim seem like they should shine).

I hitnk monks are just a troop to rush for and conquer a civ before they get archers. level 12 monks have something specail i think. Lemme check. Didnt find it in the pedia, but i think level 12 monks can cast enlightenment and gain like 2 :str: or somehting and somehting cool.

Grigori have the adventurer, which is the one thing that is really unique and powerful for their civilization. Unfortunately, this eats up your great person points, which gives you a technology/economic disadvantage. To further that disadvantage, you're agnostic so you cannot pick up a religion (like Runes) to boost that economy up and increase happiness for your cities. Because of this, it seems that the Grigori is always falling behind in technology and that their economy. I think the fundamental change that needs to be made here is that the Agnostic trait needs to provide an advantage along with the disadvantage of being unable to have a religion. +1 happiness, +1 health, and +1 commerce to your cities seems like it would be appropriate as an advantage to help offset the no-religion disadvantage.

As far as the lack of great people go, I think having the adventurer as such a versatile and strong unit is plenty to offset this.

Hippus are well done. They always have horses and their mounted units move further and withdraw easier, and they can hire units. This provides them with a good niche. There really isn't much to change about the Hippus.

Illians are also well done and interesting. The agnostic personality again could use the +1 happiness, +1 health, and +1 commerce boost to help offset the massive disadvantage that not having a religion has.

The Stir From Slumber requirement to finish off a civ seems a little wierd as the only way you can possibly accomplish it. Often times someone else will get the one last hit needed to finish them off, and that can massively affect your game. I think it would be better if Stir From Slumber could be produced if you finish off a player -or- if you've completed The Draw. This would allow you to produce Stir From Slumber earlier if you kill a player, but allow you to produce it anyhow a little later if you do not.

Infernal is a good civ and is balanced by the fact that you only start mid-game.

Khazad are also well done. They have stronger units in many cases, but lack magic. They also can get a large boost from having money laying around. One thing I would change about the AI is for them to focus on keeping enough gold around to keep the boost going to their cities.

Their hero, Maros, is a really good match for the Khazad. 12 base defense +50% causes him to be a prime city defender. The ability to convert forest into battering rams on offense gives him a solid role on the offense as well. He can create siege weapons for you and defend your offensive stack.

Kuriotates are kind of interesting. I like the concept of their sprawling cities, but I wish their settlements would play a bit of a larger role in the game.

I would like to see the settlements become more of low-yield cities. Perhaps give them the ability to produce a limited selection of buildings (any temple where there is the appropriate religion, monument, palisade, walls, training yard, archery range) as well as let them have normal production of the units that their buildings allow, and allow some population (limit it to 3 population). The settlements can still produce culture, production, and commerce normally... though it is obviously limited by the 3 population and lower selection of buildings. Have maintenence exist in these settlements as well, but reduced by a significant amount (perhaps -75%, which would allow the city-states civ if they grow large enough to reduce their maintenance to zero... very Kuriotate-ish). Have the settlements still automatically destroyed when captured, but producing half the effect to the AC.

more kuriotate-ish would eb the aristocracy civc, which would also bring their maintenence to 0. Settlements of course dont need maintenence nor produciotn, Their osle purpose is resource cllection.

I think these changes would round out the Kuriotates some so that they can reasonably expand beyond their couple of mega-cities, but that the settlements would still be far inferior to the normal cities of other civs.

Lunan are another very well thought out civ. Their unique resource, faster water movement, and unique water tile improvement all make them extremely effective as a coastal and island civilization.

Lanun

Liosalfar are a bit forced into Fellowship of the Leaves, but this isn't such a bad thing. They are able to produce HUGE cities surrounded by ancient forests and cottages, proving to be one of the strongest economies in the game.

The one thing that seems weird about all this is that it is very hard to protect against pillaging. the 50% ancient forest defense means that your troops have a hard time preventing pillaging in their own forests. Perhaps ancient forests should provide 50% defense for the owner and allies, and only 25% for enemies? The civ trait (+1 offense to archers) seems pretty silly as well, as even with +1 strength archers are terrible offensive troops. Instead it might be more appropriate to provide +1 first strike to all archer and recon troops, or +25% forest and ancient forest attack and defense to all troops.

The other thing that seems very bland is their hero. He's 6/6 with a defensive strike. That's about it. It seems like he should have something interesting or forest-related that would provide a unique aspect. Perhaps an interesting suggestion would be to give him an ability: "Gilden's Gift: Removes 4-9 experience from Gilden Silveric and grants the experience to an archery unit on the tile". This would allow him to be of some use later in the game after there are units that make his paltry 6/6 strength meaningless.

Gildens gift sounds ecplotiy. He mightb e bland, but he is a powerhouse. All heroes have a duration set, no need to extend any of them.

Luchurip have a great theme, but it has a little weirdness to it as it is currently implemented. The golems are great, but they're outshined by other units. The Iron golem is 10 strength, the same as a champion with mithril weapons... but the champion heals on its own, gets 25% vs. melee, and has a HUGE advantage because it can get promotions. The same is true about the wood golem compared to a swords/axeman with iron, gargoyle compared to longbow, bone golem to immortal, etc... The change of weapons to a +% bonus will make a big difference as the weapons won't make golems obsolete as badly. The other thing that is strange is the ability to give fireball to ALL your golems. Having the luchurip be the best mages in the game due to fireball-spitting golems seems to really not fit in with the civ. It might be more appropriate for the Blasting Workshop to provide your golems with +1 fire damage instead.

Another thing about the Luchurip is the way their hero works. It is very awkward to have your entire game based around how well your hero levels up. There are a lot of things you could do with the golem civ to make the hero interesting (For example, let Barnaxus transfer his consciousness into any golem you possess, giving them his experience and promotions). This would make him unique in that he would get stronger as you built stronger golems. A clockwerk Barnaxus or bone golem Barnaxus would be neat. The ability to get +10-+50% boost to your golems could instead come from your access to weapons (or in this case, superior crafting materials). If the weapon-change is implemented to percentage, it might be appropriate to slightly reduce some of the mass-produced golems in strength (Wood to 5, Iron to 9).

Lastly, the slow regeneration for golems makes sense elsewhere, but while they're in a city with a sculpter's studio, they really should repair quickly.

5 adepts can heal a champion instantaneously? champions start with fire II and combat 2.5? Can champions become invisible? Golems rent bad, they are different. Also, IRON champions come at the same tech as iron golems, for them to be equal, the champions would need an insanely expensive tech.

Malakim seem to be just a little bland. Their lightbringers and ability to pre-build priests is interesting, but other than that there is very little unique about them. It might make their religious fervor aspect seem a little more interesting if they had reason to focus on religious units. A bonus of +1 fire strength to all religious units might make it beneficial to focus on the religious units instead of the standard ones.

+1 damage sounds weird, but i agree on them needing a religous focus. maybe a bit more desert focus too (several modmods ((probably only two actually, but w/e)) have addressed this problem)

Mercurians, like the inferal, and interesting, unique, and balanced by their later start.

Sheaim are fun to play for the creature zerg that they can produce. Their hero is amazing for late-game, and the various creatures that they summon instead of having standard troops makes the civ feel very different to play than any other civ.

The only real downside right now is that the issue with weapons can make the Sheaim a little underwhelming. Minotaurs, with 8/11 and +25% city defense can seem pretty awesome until you consider that Champions with mithril are 10/10 with +25% melee. Many of the other units suffer the same disadvantage, and a further disadvantage is that it's basically game-over when someone builds Glory Everlasting. Sheaim really needs to play Ashen Vale to get the most of out the civ, and Glory Everlasting kills off your Chaos Marauders, Succubus, Tar Demons, Eidilons, Beasts of Agares, Mardero and Mishabber of Dis. At this point your best option is to start a new game, which is frustrating and not really all that fun.

Uh... okay? How often do you find your enemies building Glory Evrlasting as the sheaim?

Sidar can mass produce shades using disciple or arcane units, which is very overpowered. You can abuse Order (Spirit guide + disciples + shade production creates an absolute shade factory).

I like the way the Sidar rely on shades to power them, but it is currently very abusable and limits your strats to those that abuse your shade creation. I think it would perhaps be best if your shade production followed similar rules that your great person building followed: Each takes a bit more resources than the last. Specifically, my suggestion is that the first shade requires a level 4 unit, the next shade requires a level 5 unit, etc. This caps out with shades requiring level 9 units each. Beyond that, Spirit Guides should not work to pass on experience when creating a shade.

Its not as exploity as you think. level 9 is insane.

Svartalfar are another elf race, requiring Fellowship of Leaves to really take advantage of them. Their Sinister ability seems to be a little weak, perhaps upgrading it to +1 offensive strength and +1 first strike to recon units would make it a little more meaningful.

Why is it weak? because svalt hunters can pwn bronze swords in almost any way?

Anyhow, I know it's a really really long post, but I do enjoy the mod a lot, and would like to see the balance tweaked a little to make it even more enjoyable for everyone. Thanks for the time reading, if you've made it this far ;)[/QUOTE]
 
So many disagreements, so little time! That's allright, I enjoy good debate.

The first thing I want to point out is that Fall From Heaven is in featurelock status - it's into the polish/fix stage moreso than the "add new overarcing systems".
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No real comments on weapons other than I think they're fine as is - the fact that having access to Mithril makes your low tier units stronger is a good thing for the tech considering the actual units it unlocks are 4-of National Units.
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On units- I feel the units are fine the way they are but see also Feature Lock.
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Religion Balance is where you take a nosedive. :D

Paramanders ARE weaksauce, though. Soliders of Kilmorph are much better, Paramanders are very "bleh".
As has been said, Glory Everlasting is NEVER constructed in any game I play. Also you forget the OO units are waterwalking. And as has already been stated, OO preist units allow you to command the seas utterly. Any coastal city you want to take is yours due to Tsunami.

Social Order is mind-bogglingly great. Seriously. Run social order, put a stack of archers in a city, get a size 25 city that still celebrates "we love the king day" every turn. Then there's Sphener who can get access to Command IV, and the command tree means a whopping chance to steal enemy units. Then there;s the fact that in addition to Social Order, Order t3 priests have Unyielding Order, which removes all unhappiness from a city as long as they stand in it. And combine the Basilica with the Courthouse for almost no maintenance!

AV is fine. Rosier and Mardero really don't need any buffs from weapons - the hero promotion does them just fine in every game I play AV in.

Empyreanis mighty. They are the good counter to AV - direct damage priests and the strongest religious hero in the game. Then you have the fact that each Empyrean temple is a PERCENTAGE buff to science and it's allll gravy.

Then we come to Esus. Shadowriders are pretty awesome, and then if you're the Dwarves you can get access to the Dwarven Shadow units.
Esus's lack of temples and preists is what it trades for not getting booted out of open borders. If anything Esus is the weak religion.
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(Going to skip some civs I have no major comment on.)

The Amurites are a little weak to me - they get quicker mages, but not really BETTER mages in a lot of cases. The might of the Amurites really comes from Govannon.

The Balseraphs have the best flavor and function combination of all the races - you can play insane and still do well, because they're designed that way. Also freaks are fun.

The Bannor, as I understand it, are the baseline civ the others are built off of. They have no major strengths out of crusade - but no weaknesses either. This makes them solid, but admittedly uninteresting.

The Calabim are strong as you said, and I generally run Order Calabim - I just think of it as a twisted form of order, where instead of the strong protecting the weak, the strong mete out their own form of "justice" which may not be fair but is always true to the law. Most facist countries are pretty organized...

The Clan of Embers are good, and the worldspell is a touch too strong - but the maintenance can drive you into the dirt if you don't start disbanding.

Dovellio are weak, I agree. I'd never play them instead of the Clan if those were my options.

The Grigori are awesome, adventurers are awesome, nothing to see here :D I don't think Agnostic needs a buff. The AI just plays Grigori poorly, but in the hands of a player they can rock house.

Hippus - I only wish the AI would be easier to hire to go kill my enemies. :p

The Lanun are great, ranging from "fantastic" on water maps/coastal starts to "pretty useless" if they stay inland. Its a great example of flavor matching function.

The Luchrip are strong if you get Blasting forges. That 10 strength golem is a lot more impressive when it opens up every fight hurling a fireball at you. Then after the fight his whole stack is healed by the Repair casting adept following them.

On the one hand, Malakim are a little weak alone. On the other hand, once they found Empyrean, they take off like a rocket.

As for the Sheaim - remember they don't pay any hammers for those units and they come up all game. As you drive up the AC more and more come out and you can simply overwhelm your puny enemy with free units. Also the Mobius Witches can come in with access to spells you don't even have the mana for! Once again, I have never seen Glory Everlasting cast by anyone.

Sidar - they're all about the Shades. Seriously. It's strong - but no stronger than Vampirism or the Lanun on a wet map. If you let a Sidar civ sit and spam shades don't be surprised when it eats you.
 
I think monks are just a troop to rush for and conquer a civ before they get archers. level 12 monks have something special i think. Lemme check. Didn't find it in the pedia, but i think level 12 monks can cast enlightenment and gain like 2 :str: or something and something cool.

That's FF Elohim. Monks at lvl 4 gain some small things from the Abbey (poison immunity, etc), at lvl 6 gain one spirit affinity, and lvl 12 gain an extra spirit affinity.
 
On the unit trees: Rebalancing units with open field combat as a major consideration would be a big mistake because past the exploration/barbarian phase very little fighting happens there. Most of it's in cities. If there's a problem with unit balance as is (I don't really know since I've become so used to how they are), your solution wouldn't be the right one.

On FoL: To get big happiness bonuses out of it, you have to fill your BFC with ancient forests, which are inferior tiles to actually work unless you managed to sneak lumbermills onto them when they were still normal forests. That makes the economic benefit pretty meh for non-elves, and the religion doesn't have much else till Yvain.

On OO: See previous responses + who ever sees that ******edly overpriced piece of crap Glory Everlasting go off? Seriously.

On Empyrean: Blinding light's one of the best defensive abilities in the game. A few castings of that stops a stack of any size dead... or multiple stacks, if they're close to each other. They've got that part of their game covered just fine.

On RoK: Agreed that this religion being neutral good is mind boggling. It vaguely feels that way just for symmetry: 1 good religion, 2 neutral good, 1 neutral, 2 neutral evil, 1 evil. Bleh. Your idea of making it not affect alignment makes a lot more sense. That, or make alignment revert to its default, pre-religion state, focused on tradition as it is. If FoL made you neutral no matter what, and Esus didn't cause an alignment change (both things that also make sense to me), symmetry could be preserved.

On Esus: Sucks. The backstab isn't that good because the AI tends to evenly distribute its army, leaving no weakspots for a backstab to exploit, and no one sane plays against human opponents, since the framework for doing that is so broken right now. Well, the AI moves the bulk of its army to a border right before it declares war or if it gets declared on, but... to exploit that you'd have to have your army camp out in an empire and wait for war to break out. Not a good idea, lest you get attacked while your army's waiting for an opportunity to backstab.

On Clan: Yeah, that worldspell is a bit too good an economy booster. In addition to what you mentioned, there's also the advantage of it giving you contact with every single civ in the game, allowing you to do intercontinental trade brokering.

On Luchuirp: you shouldn't assume mithril weapon champions when comparing Iron Golems, but rather Iron weapon champions. Mithril's almost a non-factor, late and rare as it is. Also bear in mind that most golems will get the benefit of a combat 5 barnaxus, making them much stronger out of the gate than what they replace. The Luchuirp are supposed to be good mages, so the blasting workshop isn't so bad.

On Sidar: See previous rebuttals, I agree with them.
 
WarKirby,

It is true that they have some powerful coastal spells, but the other religions have spells and heros that are powerful as well, and provide economic bonuses to match. Fellowship of Leaves, for example, has Yvain with 9 strength (+2 nature affinity). With your initial nature mana, the nature mana from fellowship, and your +2 strength for being a hero this gives him a 15 strength and the ability to walk over mountains. The channeling3 divine units can crank out 10 strength treants whenever they feel like it as well.

Runes of Kilmorph tier3 casters can make improvement pillaging look like a joke... they just roll up with a couple defenders and destroy the buildings in a city. You can reduce a well developed city back to almost nothing in just a couple turns, and then move on to the next.

I'm not saying the Overlords are useless, just that both comparable religions (Runes + Fellowship) hold spells and heroes just as powerful as the Overlords, but also provide economic benefit.

I think the reason the removal-from-borders is in the game is because it is too hard to code what a war-declaring action is in terms of troops movement. Think of it in terms of the real world: The United States has (mostly) open borders with Canada. Would Canada take it as a declaration of war from the United States if a single US soldier snuck across the border and was milling around? Probably not. Would they take it as a declaration of war if 80,000 soldiers marched across the border? Probably so.

Civ has no mechanic to make that distinction, so instead they have the magical removal as a band-aid fix to cover up for it.

PotatoOverdose,,

Empyrean are largely in the same boat as OO, they have military advantages as you mentioned, but not necessarily more than Esus... and Esus has advantages other than strickly brute-force military (As Chilad provides). The Radiant guards are nice to upgrade for the SunII promotion to Champions/Knights and their TierIII religion spell is powerful as well. The real downside about Empyrean is that it is weaker than it's counterpart, Council of Esus.

You're probably right about the Sidar, the larger maps surely add to their strength.

The Doviello's ability to upgrade more easily (much more easily) than other civilizations is nice, as is their ability to disregard building needs for troop building... but it seems weaker than the advantages most civs get.

The Luchurip do have the advantage of repairing units more easily, but it comes at a cost: Limitless adapts to repair take up a lot of your military. In any other civ those adapts could be other military units. In addition to that the adapts cannot heal them while on defense, creating a situation where your army can be taken apart inbetween turns without your adapts having much of a chance to heal anyone. Having all your golems able to cast Fireball is a nice bonus, as is stealth, but it doesn't seem to make up for the major disadvantage that your troops have in terms of raw strength later in the game. A Bone Golem, for example, will have 13 strength, +50% strength if your hero leveled as he should, and cannibalize. A generic immortal with mithril that is only up to level 10 would have 13 strength, +100% strength, 3-6 first strikes, defensive strike, and reduced collateral damage taken. The ability to cast fireball really seems to pale compared to that kind of inbalance. The same is true when looking at other top-end troops: Nullstones -vs- Phalanx, Clockworks vs Berserkers. Even gargoyles pale compared to Iron Longbows. Maybe it's just because promotions are so easily available or so strong, but the Luchurip seem to be at a military disadvantage.

For OO, perhaps I'm just not playing them to their full potential (I'm a strong player, but not perfect), but it seems like there isn't much reason to take them over Fellowship or Runes except in a few rare situations.

cIV_khanh93,

It does reduce the effect of promotions, which is one goal. It is very easy to have virtually invulnerable units after a few victories, so having promotions play a somewhat lesser effect isn't necessarily a bad thing. Unit type, terrain advantages, weapons, and promotions should all play a role in the battle.

crusaders/eidolons and any other unit where having full weapon strength would currently overpower them could be tweaked back into balance. If Crusaders with full weapon strength are too powerful, then their strength could be reduced by 1 (or however much is required to balance them). I don't see the weapon change creating issues in specific units when the ability is there to change the base strength of units until it is at an appropriate level.

I agree about siege weapons. It does seem kind of strange that they aren't more slanted towards city attack.

5/3 might be a bit powerful for horses. The balance would have to be tweaked a bit until it was something manageable (or give them a 25% weakness to melee?). The same is true for the balance of the horse archer and chariot. I was more trying to showcase the 3 having distinct advantages and disadvantages compared to each other rather than trying to pin down perfect balance. After a bit of testing you could probably come up with more balanced actual values for % bonuses/penalties and raw strengths.

I reduced them down a bit because I included them on the weapons change list. The woodsman promotions are nice, but they still will often lose while fighting in the woods against standard melee troops.

Consider this battle:
Ranger (Woodsman I + II, Combat I + II) is attacking a Champion (Mithril Weapons, Combat I - IV) in the woods. Who do you think should win, and who actually wins?

The Champion wins that fight in the vast majority of situations even though they both are similar tech level units with identical amount of upgrades and fighting on the ranger's turf. In a city situation the ranger wouldn't stand a chance attacking the Champion. This brings up a question: Why would you want to build a ranger?

Council of leaves definitely is night-and-day if you're an elf -vs- non-elf race playing it. For non-elf races I don't think the economic benefit is all that impressive. It was the two elf races where it seems to be extremely strong.

Stygian guards are strong compared to paramanders, yes. They are only 1 strength stronger than standard champions however, and lack the 25% bonus -vs- melee as well as being vulnerable to the demon-slaying promotion (which anyone fighting OO religions should have on their troops late game). They're the strongest spammable troop for any of the religions, and starting with march is a very nice bonus.

Social order is nice for the happiness, but you're paying for all those troops and all you're getting is happiness. Fellowship (with elves) can build huge cities without needing huge garrisons, and they get a health bonus too. On top of that they're only losing their Economy civic, which has the potential to provide less of a bonus than the cultural civic that Social Order takes up.

5 Adepts can heal an Iron golem instantly. 6 champions would destroy the 1 iron golem and all 5 adepts. The iron golems can cast fireballs while the champions cannot, but the mages on the champions side can cast fireballs, they can heal without the adepts, start with combat 2 and advance past combat 2.5, become specialized to adapt to your enemies troops (Anti-melee 1-2, anti-archer 1-2, etc...), and that's looking at the pinnacle of the golem's strength. Everything above and below iron golems struggles even more than Irons at dealing with equivalent troops. Perhaps I am just a poor Luchurip player, but it seems that even with the Fireballs the golems are inferior to most other civs armies.

Svalt hunters are 5/4. Bronze swords are 5/5, I don't see how the hunters own the swords in every way. Beyond that you get Iron quickly, which would upgrade the swords but not the hunters.

Iceciro,

A lot has been covered already, but:

Social order pales in comparison to Guardian's of Nature. Guardian's can achieve the same thing faster in the game, with less effort, and provides health as well as happiness.

The Channeling3 order priests have a nice spell, but the happiness is redundant with social order. Social order gives you all the happiness you need. The maintenance is redundant with courthouses + Basilica. Why park a high priest in a city permanently to provide unlimited happiness and zero maintenance when you already have 80% of your maintenance removed and more happiness than you need?

OO priests are nice, but they really aren't better than Runes of Kilmorph (which can just wreck cities without even needing the strength to conquer them), Empyrean (Crown of Brilliance owns face), or AV (Ring of Flames has much the same effect, but usable everywhere... and Krakens in the ocean are like Balors on land. Ouch)




Thanks for the replys thus-far, all!
 
Why park a high priest in a city permanently to provide unlimited happiness and zero maintenance when you already have 80% of your maintenance removed and more happiness than you need?
It's great for taking over newly conquered cities and allowing them to be productive immediately, without any economic drain, so you can get those millitary units & basilicas built where you need them.
There IS obviously redundancy here, I'm not arguing against that, but there is utility as well.
 
Weapons: I understand where you’re coming from, but the system you propose to replace weapons is simply too complicated. But you have pinpointed one of the major issues in the weakness of the Archery line. The real solution is just to expand the availability of weapons and maybe weaken Champions by 1.

Religions:
1. Runes is a rather weak religion for everyone except the Khazad, but it’s not so weak as to be a real problem. (It does have the problem of turning all the Evil civs Neutral, but that’s a separate issue, and lorewise the religion has to do that.)
2. Leaves is not so strong as to require any weakening; it’s generally an inferior choice for anyone but the two elven civs, and the elves would be really crippled if Leaves lost much of its strength.
3. OO is extremely strong on military. It is a boring religion, IMO, but it’s the only religion that is so straightforward. Not weak.
4. Order is one of the better religions. Some people have an unhealthy obsession with Social Order, which is a weak civic that some people have deluded themselves into thinking is strong, but otherwise Order is a strong religion, so its unique civic doesn’t need to be as strong as those for Veil, Leaves and Runes.
5. Veil is the best-designed of the religions.
6. Empyrean is awful. Not for strength; Chalid alone is enough to make Empyrean a powerhouse. And that’s the problem. Empyrean is too militant and too unit-focused. Chalid doesn’t need to be weakened so much as he needs to be completely rebooted, and the religion needs to get some perks which aren’t about smashing face.
7. Esus is the weakest religion by far. There’s just no good reason to opt for Esus over any other religion, and if you want to use Esus, you just let it sit in your cities. There’s a serious problem when the two civs most inclined to Esus lorewise (the Svartalfar and Calabim) have absolutely no reason to choose it over other religions (Leaves for the Svartalfar, Order or OO for the Calabim).

Civilizations:
The Amurites are kind of weak, but that’s mostly the AI just being clueless. AI improvements would make them a more interesting opponent. It might be nice if they got some midgame boost to help them get over their terrible early game, but it’s not necessary.
Agree completely on the Balseraphs, Bannor.
The goal of the Calabim is not to make every unit a Vampire. It’s to have a few Vampires be the heart of your army. OO is actually a very good religion for them if only for the Tower of Complacency, although Order is generally a bit better. Veil isn’t bad for them at all, either.
Agree that the Clan worldspell needs tweaking, although the real problem is that it’s too random in how much of an advantage it gives you.
The Doviello do need something to differentiate them. Someone mentioned the upgrading, which is great, but Charadon in particular is still really weak. I’m not sure what to do with them.
The Elohim are done ten thousand times better in FF. Generally I’m not a huge fan of FF, but the ball has been completely dropped in regards to them in the main game.
That’s far too gimmicky a suggestion to offset the disadvantages of Agnostic, which I think is done reasonably well already. The one thing I would suggest for the Grigori is simple: an extra happy face in every city. Not the Charismatic trait, just have the people be a bit happier.
The Hippus, well, meh. They’re one-trick ponies like the Bannor, but they’re stronger, and the AI can actually do something with them. So that’s good.
The Illians are currently still weak and far too dependent on starting near Letum Frigus. The Draw and Auric Ascended are also poorly balanced and win-more; if you can survive The Draw, you can easily win the game without AA.
Agree on Khazad and Infernal, generally well-done.
I agree strongly on the Kuriotates, but Kael has said he’s never doing this. Which is a real opportunity missed, IMO.
Agree on the Lanun, although they’re almost too good. Particularly Hannah: strongest leader in the game except for the abusive stuff with Keelyn.
Agree that Gilden is boring, but not everyone’s hero can be exciting. I don’t like the idea of new gimmicks. Also agree on pillaging, but this is a small price to pay for the Ljosalfar. I would like to see the Elven tree combat bonus upped a bit, though.
Disagree completely on the Luchuirp. They’re very well-done, one of the stronger and better balanced civs. The AI is clueless, as usual, but that’s AI work that needs to be done.
The Malakim have gotten more interesting lately. I think they could benefit from some of the stuff in the Malakim+ modmod, although obviously not everything is a good idea (don’t like civ-specific resources or the Merchant trait, for example). But they’re okay. Making them a bit more religion-focused couldn’t hurt, but a lot of this has to do with how poorly designed Empyrean is right now. A well-designed Empyrean would complement the Malakim effectively.
The Mercurians are weak, but a human who knows what’s what can make them into a powerhouse. I suppose this is appropriate.
The Sheaim are one of the better-balanced civs. Not quite Calabim, Luchuirp or Ljosalfar level of strength with balance, but up there.
Disagree on the Sidar, although I do wish they were a little less gimmicky.
The Svartalfar just aren’t different enough from the Ljosalfar. They would be if Esus were a more useful religion, so they suffer from the same problem as the Malakim.
 
It's not so much that Social Order is the be all end all civic that will save you from failure - it's that it is incredibly useful if you can leverage it properly.

Unlike guardian of Nature it comes in the Cultural Values line, which aside from Social Order and Scholarship is pretty weak. And if you're doing a lot of warring the +20% WW starts to hurt, whereas whenever you see an unhappy face in SO you just plop another Archer in the offending city. Under Social Order you can still have your pick of Conquest/Foreign Trade, not a case with Guardian. GoN also has a small but noticeable military unit production debuff (while the Order temples have a military unit production buff.)

In any case anyone who thinks Esus is better than Empyrean is :smoke: Gibbon is laughable, and Empy lets you crush your enemies far better than the suprise wardecs of Esus.

This is balanced by the fact that the Overcouncil sucks and the Undercouncil rocks socks.

The AV would be a good choice for the Calabim except for the fact that hell terrain eats into your food supplies and therefore, free XP.
 
Calabim is another very interesting and rewarding to play civ. The only real downside I see for the Calabim is that they don't benefit much from Fellowship, Don't benefit from Ashen (Demon units can't be vampires), don't benefit from Overlords (Demon units can't be vampires), and their feeding can really weaken your economy. This makes Runes of Kilmorph a strong choice for the Calabim, but it automatically makes you neutral... this seems kind of strange because this can be a -good- thing, as you can make Druids vampiric, but not Eidilons. The other good choice is Order for vampiric Paladins (think about that for a second) and the -40% maintenance building making up for the 20% you lose out from your altered courthouse. The third religion that benefits Calabim is Empyrean for the radiant guards (which can be upgraded into vampires and then vampire lords) and Chalid, which is an absolute wrecking ball, especially with 11 defensive strength and the ability to twincast Wraiths.

That leaves the best three religious choices for the evil, vampiric civilization as worshiping the sun, worshiping a religion that fights the unnatural, and worshiping the honorable god of crafting. Seems strange, but it's true. Esus, which makes sense as a vampiric-religion, is also pretty solid, but I've found that they're not quite as well suited as Order, Runes, or Empyrean.
you forgot about AV's StW... half the food need per person???? that is quite nice considering you get more experience based on how big the city is...

Luchurip have a great theme, but it has a little weirdness to it as it is currently implemented. The golems are great, but they're outshined by other units. The Iron golem is 10 strength, the same as a champion with mithril weapons... but the champion heals on its own, gets 25% vs. melee, and has a HUGE advantage because it can get promotions. The same is true about the wood golem compared to a swords/axeman with iron, gargoyle compared to longbow, bone golem to immortal, etc... The change of weapons to a +% bonus will make a big difference as the weapons won't make golems obsolete as badly. The other thing that is strange is the ability to give fireball to ALL your golems. Having the luchurip be the best mages in the game due to fireball-spitting golems seems to really not fit in with the civ. It might be more appropriate for the Blasting Workshop to provide your golems with +1 fire damage instead.

Another thing about the Luchurip is the way their hero works. It is very awkward to have your entire game based around how well your hero levels up. There are a lot of things you could do with the golem civ to make the hero interesting (For example, let Barnaxus transfer his consciousness into any golem you possess, giving them his experience and promotions). This would make him unique in that he would get stronger as you built stronger golems. A clockwerk Barnaxus or bone golem Barnaxus would be neat. The ability to get +10-+50% boost to your golems could instead come from your access to weapons (or in this case, superior crafting materials). If the weapon-change is implemented to percentage, it might be appropriate to slightly reduce some of the mass-produced golems in strength (Wood to 5, Iron to 9).

Lastly, the slow regeneration for golems makes sense elsewhere, but while they're in a city with a sculpter's studio, they really should repair quickly.

they are hardly the cripples you make them out to be, if you want to know why Barnaxus has that ability check his 'pedia, (he teaches the other golems). For the Bone Golem, you drastically underestimate cannibalism it is actually very good, Gargoyle have very good defense bonuses, plus how many longbow can shoot fireballs? (only firebows). as to Iron golems, how the hell do you think you would have mithril champions when the enemy has iron golems, mithril takes a ton more research to get plus you actually have to have it so uh 10 vs 8 is actually a nice bonus, plus you don't need catapults... do you know how messed up wood golems can be? +50%, and shoot fireballs? thats Über

Sheaim are fun to play for the creature zerg that they can produce. Their hero is amazing for late-game, and the various creatures that they summon instead of having standard troops makes the civ feel very different to play than any other civ.

The only real downside right now is that the issue with weapons can make the Sheaim a little underwhelming. Minotaurs, with 8/11 and +25% city defense can seem pretty awesome until you consider that Champions with mithril are 10/10 with +25% melee. Many of the other units suffer the same disadvantage, and a further disadvantage is that it's basically game-over when someone builds Glory Everlasting. Sheaim really needs to play Ashen Vale to get the most of out the civ, and Glory Everlasting kills off your Chaos Marauders, Succubus, Tar Demons, Eidilons, Beasts of Agares, Mardero and Meshabber of Dis. At this point your best option is to start a new game, which is frustrating and not really all that fun.
first of all, they enemy doesn't usually have mithril weapons... champions more like 8/8, glory everlasting, never seen it built EVER btw it is Ashen Veil... lets see what else, ah yes you don't build the units, they come free to you so you can be building wonders during a war if done correctly, you forgot pyre zombies, walking grenades
 
PotatoOverdose,,

Empyrean are largely in the same boat as OO, they have military advantages as you mentioned, but not necessarily more than Esus... and Esus has advantages other than strickly brute-force military (As Chilad provides). The Radiant guards are nice to upgrade for the SunII promotion to Champions/Knights and their TierIII religion spell is powerful as well. The real downside about Empyrean is that it is weaker than it's counterpart, Council of Esus.

You're probably right about the Sidar, the larger maps surely add to their strength.

The Doviello's ability to upgrade more easily (much more easily) than other civilizations is nice, as is their ability to disregard building needs for troop building... but it seems weaker than the advantages most civs get.

The Luchurip do have the advantage of repairing units more easily, but it comes at a cost: Limitless adapts to repair take up a lot of your military. In any other civ those adapts could be other military units. In addition to that the adapts cannot heal them while on defense, creating a situation where your army can be taken apart inbetween turns without your adapts having much of a chance to heal anyone. Having all your golems able to cast Fireball is a nice bonus, as is stealth, but it doesn't seem to make up for the major disadvantage that your troops have in terms of raw strength later in the game. A Bone Golem, for example, will have 13 strength, +50% strength if your hero leveled as he should, and cannibalize. A generic immortal with mithril that is only up to level 10 would have 13 strength, +100% strength, 3-6 first strikes, defensive strike, and reduced collateral damage taken. The ability to cast fireball really seems to pale compared to that kind of inbalance. The same is true when looking at other top-end troops: Nullstones -vs- Phalanx, Clockworks vs Berserkers. Even gargoyles pale compared to Iron Longbows. Maybe it's just because promotions are so easily available or so strong, but the Luchurip seem to be at a military disadvantage.
To the bolded points:
If you look at the strategy forums, you'll find that most people believe esus to be semi-worthless as a state religion, namely because you can get most of the beenefits associated (shadows, undercouncil, etc.) w/o esus as a state religion. In fact, Esus only has 3 things IIRC that require it to be the state religion: Gibbon (archmage hero, easy come easy go, OO has one, Emperyean has Chalid who is better, etc.), Shadow Riders (meh, by the time they're available, individual units have to be really, really strong for them to be important when stacks consist of 100's of units and stackbusting spells rule supreme), and mask (I think). Everything else that happens as a result of deception/esus is available to everyone.

As to the doviello, on paper, they may seem weak, but in practice, the doviello war machine (the civ not the unit) is quite frankly ridiculous. As mahala, you get cheap reinforcements, fully mobilized on the front lines and ready for action, for dirt cheap. Early on, this only applies to workers (though early on, unprotected workers are plentiful), but later on, with slavery, 1 out of every 4 combat victories will provide you with a fresh new axeman/champion. This is good. Really good. And the fact that they all start with commando is a nice icing on the cake. Oh, and charadon's beastmen start at +40% against cities. Awesomely easy warrior wars in the first 100 turns? Yes, please! Oh and their world spell is quite nice for a warrior rush too.

As to the Luchuirp, most civs would be only to happy to have a limitless amount of healers standing by. In fact, there's a good reason why healing is a tier 3 spell. And what else would adepts be doing that is more productive than healing? The chirp get a tier 3 spell on a tier 1 unit. How can you possibly call this a disadvantage? Also, All of the chirps regular units have a higher base strength as compared to their living counterparts. An iron golem has 10:strength: at a potential +50%. An Iron weapon champion has 8:strength:. In order to reach a comparable strength to that of the iron golem at full potential, it needs to be promoted to +90%. What's more, it will need a much larger bonus after the champion stack is hit by the insane amount of fireballs and all the collateral damage thereof caused.by each and every single golem having fire II. Remember, fire II is a mage level spell, and every single golem will have it in the mid-late game. When talking in terms of stack sizes in the 30-100 range, that is a lot of fireballs and a lot of collateral damage. Those champions are going to need a lot more than +80%, they'll probably need something closer to +150% to measure up. And guess what? No promotion line gives a specialized bonus against golems. So, the champions are stuck up the creek without a paddle. And once those golems have chalid/dwarven druids/archmages backing em up, they may never need to enter real combat in the first place. A stack of 50 champions, after suffering from stackbusting spells, is short work for a comparable stack of fireballs provided by the golems. It is easy as pie. Try it in the Black Tower scenario, works like a charm. I guarantee it:goodjob:.
 
and mask (I think)

No, Mask does not require state religion. Any recon unit with CoE as its religion can use this to become HN, regardles of the state religion. The spell that requires CoE is Steal, which is only useful if a rival with whom you are not at war has a piece of equipment you want. (I'm thinking it might be appropriate to switch the prereqs on these two.)

CoE has one other special ability for those who have it as their state religion. If you declare war on a civ with whom you had open boarders your units will not be ejected from their territory (except for units on the same tile as one of their units). In theory you can kill off all the defenders of your rivals' cities with HN units while not at war and then capture all of thier cities in the same turn as the war starts.


I find that CoE is especially bad in scenarios, a they usually dictate your diplomacy to you. CoE is a militant religion that does best if you are at peace for the vast majority of the time and can choose to enter very quick wars when you want to.





The Luchuirp are weak in that promotions are realy important in FfH, and they cannot get promotions. Higher base strength is nice, but it doesn't compare to the ability to specialize specific elite units against specific targets.

Personally I think that it would be much more appropriate for Barnaus to share his specialized promotions like Shock than to give out Empower promotions based on his combat promotions.

I just got to thinking it could be cool if the xp that golems gained in combat wasn't wasted. I'm thinking it could be cool f Repair moved this xp from the golems being healed and gave it to the caster.
 
Empyrean feels an underpowered religion, to me.

Militarily, it's pretty decent, although Radiant guards and rathas are somewhat lacking in raw power. But military isn't supposed to be it's thing. Isn't empyrean the religion of thought and reason, where order is the religion of action?

I think Empy could do with some more unique stuff. for example, an extra hero. Not a fighter like chalid, but a support hero. Casting buffs on your troops, providing bonuses to cities, and such. It needs more lore-relevant things, because right now empyrean is an excellent military religion, and just about any other one is better if you want ot be peaceful.
 
A good read with some interesting ideas, particularly in the Civilizations section.

The ideas I liked the best were for the Doviello, Elohim, Luchurip, and Bannor. Anyway, hopefully some balancing and additional flavor will come soon, as most of the recent updates have been very minor.
 
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