Base golden age durations were halved.
Balance Factors
- Thread starter Thunderbrd
- Start date
I found an issue in my previous game results that significantly inflated the TD boost as displayed in the science slider setting. My previous game ran with Complex Traits on. My newest test game uses the same settings, except for turning Complex Traits off (and setting "normal" traits On). From the difference in results, I suspect the displayed "TD/WFL" beaker count includes a significant number of beakers generated by Complex Traits beaker bonuses.
If there is interest in getting a better TD impact sizing, I can run another test with all Traits and WFL turned off. My current short game is not representative, mainly due to still having "normal" traits on with a Financial leader (my experience is that the Financial trait has the highest impact on technology progress), plus a small main continent slowing down my city expansion and requiring a lengthy war in the Prehistoric Era to capture and burn 2 AI cities to get expansion room).
Early results comparison by Era for Complex Traits "On" versus "Off"
1) To end of Prehistoric Era
Test #1) Complex Traits on:
- TD generated an average of 7% of all beakers (with Infrastructure at 55%, Gold at 38%, and beaker random bonuses and science builds totaling less than 0.5%.
- Completing Prehistoric Era used 425 turns to learn 84 techs.
Test #2) Complex Traits off (but "normal" traits on):
- TD generated an average of 3% of all beakers (with Infrastructure at 47%, Gold at 49%, and beaker random bonuses and science builds totaling less than 1%.
- Completing Prehistoric Era used 513 turns to learn 87 techs.
2) To where I got in Ancient Era
Test #1) Complex Traits on:
- TD generated an average of 25% of all beakers (with Infrastructure at 30%, Gold at 44%, and beaker random bonuses and science builds totaling less than 1%.
- Completing Ancient Era used 423 turns to learn 77 techs.
Test #2) Complex Traits off (partial result from about the first 20% of Ancient era techs):
- TD generated an average of 9% of all beakers (with Infrastructure at 38%, Gold at 52%, and beaker random bonuses and science builds totaling less than 0.1%.
- So far in Ancient Era I have played 130 turns to learn 16 techs
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Is this on stock v70 or latest? I think I had to further separate the trait national tech modifier from that TD displayed amount after the release IIRC.
Generated the map December 18th on code base SVN11091 (V40.0.996), then updated to SVN 11093 (V40.0.1029) just before settling the first city on Dec 27th.
I usually run on "close to the latest" update (waiting a day or 2 after significant updates in case of glitches, or to the start of the next era if there are few significant updates).
I think it would help in balancing if the beaker impact of "Traits" (whether Complex or "normal") can be separated from "TD/WFL" - maybe even separating TD and WFL in case anybody runs with both on.
Update to last version, as in 11093 fresh water stuff was broken.
Thanks - will do!
I ran another test ( see "Game2001B Gameplay Log.ods" spreadsheet in attached zip file for tech-by-tech result logging) to size TD beaker impact in the extreme case of running with no traits ("normal" and Complex both turned off) and with WFL turned off. I expected game progress to be slower than usual, but was very surprised by how much slower and by how much gold I earned per turn (to the point that towards the end I spent most turns building beakers directly in my 3 largest cities as "science pseudo-buildings").
Custom Game and Map Set-up
------------------------------------
For full set-up details, see "Game2001B Set-up Details.txt" in attached zip file. This zipped (".7z") file also contains calculations spreadsheets, game saves, etc.
1) Code Base: Ran whole test on SVN11103 (V40.0.1158) from January 12 to 25
2) Key Game settings: Emperor difficulty level with 6 AI opponents (but see "cheat" note below), playing as Iroquois led by Deganawida.
3) Key Map Settings: C2C_World at Standard size, Long Game speed (4000 turns), Medium Sea Level, Start Everywhere.
4) Key gameplay BUG option settings to isolate TD impact: Complex Traits off, "normal" traits off , TD on , WFL off, Tech Trading and Brokering both off.
5) WB "cheats" to improve the generated map: Good starting location on first try. Deleted a near-by AI that would block my expansion, flattened 1 mountain to a hill, added 1 deer, 1 obsidian and 1 squash at my planned first 3 city sites.
Results Summary:
----------------
(1) Completed Prehistoric Era (finished Sedentary Lifestyle) at turn 540 in 7629 BC (much much later than expected). Averaged across the Prehistoric Era, TD supplied 22% of the beakers (with Infrastructure buildings at 43%, slider gold settings at 33%, Science builds at 1% and free bonus beakers at 0%. At completion of Sedentary Lifestyle, I checked AI technology progress using WB, and all 6 AIs were ahead of me (in the range of 3 to 10 techs).
Assuming my guesses below are more or less correct, this could bridge the discussion about TD only providing 5% or less TD benefit. Spreading a 22% TD beaker boost evenly across 6 AIs needs each AI to provide a 3.7% TD benefit to me. The actual technology leads by AI were Aztec at 10, Rome at 7, Inca at 6, Neanderthal at 5, plus Portugal and Egypt each at 3.
2) Completed Ancient Era (finished Classical Lifestyle) at turn 972 in 319 AD (much much later than expected). Averaged across the Ancient Era, TD supplied 13% of the beakers (with Infrastructure buildings at 26%, slider gold settings at 51%, Science builds at 10% and free bonus beakers at 0%. At completion of Classical Lifestyle, I checked AI technology progress using WB, and all 6 AIs were ahead of me (in the range of 4 to 13 techs).
As above, spreading a 13% TD beaker boost evenly across 6 AIs needs each AI to provide a 2.1% TD benefit to me. The actual technology leads by AI were Neanderthal at 13, Rome at 10, Egypt at 9, Inca at 7, Aztec at 6, and Portugal at 4.
3) Played the early part of Classical Age, completing 8 more technologies by turn 1026 in 583 AD. Averaged across Classical Lifestyle and these 8 technologies, TD supplied 8% of the beakers (with Infrastructure buildings at 17%, slider gold settings at 53%, Science builds at 22% and free bonus beakers at 0%.
I also noticed that I was earning much more gold than normally, running at an average 95% science slider setting (and a solid 100% for all technologies past Chiefdom). The gold numbers rose significantly by era, averaging 17 gold per tech in the Prehistoric Era, 1,297 in the Ancient Era, and a mind-boggling 4,284 while learning Classical Lifestyle and 8 more technologies.
==================================================================================
Guesses I'm making about TD mechanics. Can anybody verify or correct (or politely suggest I stop making wild guesses, or ask for more information)?
1) Each civilization that already has a specific technology provides TD beakers to each other civilization that is just starting to learn that technology.
2) There are TD calculations and parameter values to determine and limit how much each "donor" civilization supplies to each recipient.
3) There may or may not be additional TD calculations and parameter values to limit how much a "recipient" civilization can receive from multiple donors as TD beakers.
=================================================================================
Oops! Forgot to attach the attachment.
Last edited:
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
You don't mention civics. Starting civics (in 9 categories) give a total 70% penalty to research. Hitting Classical a millennium late suggests you were still getting most of that penalty.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
IMHO unit neanderthal spiked clubman is overpowered.
1. It has +1 strength with total strenght 4, more than any other unit in this stage of game
2. It has hidden neutrality, can attack without declaration of war and harass hopeless civilizations
3. Yes, it is limited unit, but 15 is enough to take any city in prehistoric age
Its really time to nerf this unit.
Similar problem with coyote runners and others americans national units, they are too overpowered.
Another problem are neerfed nukes. Saw a game where 2 AIs waged nuclear war for 100+ turns. Every turn they detonated 7+ nuclears bombs without any real progress in conquering cities or destroying another civ. So I detonated few nuclears bombs/chemical nukes..... to see real power of them and must say they are only shadow of what used to be.
Can you return real power to nuclears weapons??
One last question. Is it possible to fix fussion nukes? Would like to sink some islands
1. It has +1 strength with total strenght 4, more than any other unit in this stage of game
2. It has hidden neutrality, can attack without declaration of war and harass hopeless civilizations
3. Yes, it is limited unit, but 15 is enough to take any city in prehistoric age
Its really time to nerf this unit.
Similar problem with coyote runners and others americans national units, they are too overpowered.
Another problem are neerfed nukes. Saw a game where 2 AIs waged nuclear war for 100+ turns. Every turn they detonated 7+ nuclears bombs without any real progress in conquering cities or destroying another civ. So I detonated few nuclears bombs/chemical nukes..... to see real power of them and must say they are only shadow of what used to be.
Can you return real power to nuclears weapons??
One last question. Is it possible to fix fussion nukes? Would like to sink some islands
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
There are some power units in the game and they are meant to be major influences, not minor beefs. Once the unit review is in place, that unit is quite likely to still be one, but it probably won't be quite as uncounterable. Even now, on SM, you'd find it's not OP at all because it cannot merge I don't think, while other more basic military units can. You can also easily defeat it with axes since axes have anti-melee that makes them as or more powerful at mere creation. Of course, the AI is not smart enough to use some axes for city defense so you CAN use them to pick on the stupid ai for now.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Totally disagree on Neander unit and the Coyote and "other american units".IMHO unit neanderthal spiked clubman is overpowered.
1. It has +1 strength with total strenght 4, more than any other unit in this stage of game
2. It has hidden neutrality, can attack without declaration of war and harass hopeless civilizations
3. Yes, it is limited unit, but 15 is enough to take any city in prehistoric age
Its really time to nerf this unit.
Similar problem with coyote runners and others americans national units, they are too overpowered.
Another problem are neerfed nukes. Saw a game where 2 AIs waged nuclear war for 100+ turns. Every turn they detonated 7+ nuclears bombs without any real progress in conquering cities or destroying another civ. So I detonated few nuclears bombs/chemical nukes..... to see real power of them and must say they are only shadow of what used to be.
Can you return real power to nuclears weapons??
One last question. Is it possible to fix fussion nukes? Would like to sink some islands
As for nukes, have no clue cause I never have them in any of my games, just like slavery. I don't want to play apocalype now, slavery or cannabalism in my C2C games. But others like them. Glad there are some Options for these things still
Cant argue about it, dont play with SM
NO you cant easily defeat with axes. For neanderthal you need 10 technologies, for axes 32. 22 technologies your neanderthals units with hidden nationality rampaging harasing and conquering cities. Do you think its fair? So early in game?
When I reach neanderthal culture its win game for me, only thanks to this unit.
At least make them normal unit, not with hidden nationality.
Why?
Somebody613
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2019
- Messages
- 2,379
This is the ONE thing they have somewhat trouble with, precisely due to Hidden Nationality (which causes them to turn the captured cities into Barbarian ones).
Sure, nobody prevents you from sneaking a strong normal unit into the rampage, then reducing a city's defenses to something it can certainly one-shot, and voila - you have a new city.
OR, if the city is at least size 3, kill it dead into Barbarian, THEN capture the EMPTY city for yourself (often even during the same turn, no less).
That works as well, lol.
But only if you are playing on fast speeds and/or wait forever for AI cities to actually grow to size 3.
OR if you play with "Don't raze cities", of course - but that tends to bite you in the ass on HUGE maps (can't remove ANY cities, even those you'd rather PREFER being removed).
Somebody613
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2019
- Messages
- 2,379
This gave me a funny idea of a challenge:
Play on a DUEL Random map populated with 40 civs (or as many as will be possible, still 30+ for sure), use "No razing cities" for easier success.
Your quest is to TURN ALL THOSE CITIES INTO BARBARIANS (and survive yourself, obviously).
The primary goal would clearly be getting Neanderthal Spiked Clubmen as your "bouncers", mwahahaha.
For MORE fun: use "Barbs can emerge as Minor Civs", and/or modify the quest to CAUSE ALL THOSE BARBS TO SETTLE AS *SEPARATE* CIVS, lol.
I might even try doing this myself - would be quite FUN.
Oh, and it would also mean that you CAN'T culture-capture any cities (or at least can't KEEP them, but would have to GIFT them away immediately).
FUN, yup.
Play on a DUEL Random map populated with 40 civs (or as many as will be possible, still 30+ for sure), use "No razing cities" for easier success.
Your quest is to TURN ALL THOSE CITIES INTO BARBARIANS (and survive yourself, obviously).
The primary goal would clearly be getting Neanderthal Spiked Clubmen as your "bouncers", mwahahaha.
For MORE fun: use "Barbs can emerge as Minor Civs", and/or modify the quest to CAUSE ALL THOSE BARBS TO SETTLE AS *SEPARATE* CIVS, lol.
I might even try doing this myself - would be quite FUN.
Oh, and it would also mean that you CAN'T culture-capture any cities (or at least can't KEEP them, but would have to GIFT them away immediately).
FUN, yup.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
If you can take advantage of that much of the map in that small an amount of time, you're on way too easy a setting and too small a map for me to begin to think this is significant enough to worry about. Axe units with anti-melee and/or anti-barbarian (they count as barbs because they are ruffian units) promotions would make easy work of their mere +25% base strength difference from the earliest stone axes. They can't even attack a city if they can't reduce the defenses if the first defensive buildings are built and if they do they can only capture for barbarians and not a player. They cannot attack other barbarians so are useless against those threats, including other barbarian neanderthals. So their uses are somewhat limited to going around and clearing what you can of your own continent, which is only one of how many continents and unless we're talking about a smaller map than even medium size, the time to get from one foe to the next isnt' all that great. Yes, you can easily wipe out a few other civs right away with them. You can do that with lots of spiked clubmen too.
Part of the problem, if you're speaking of using them as a player, is that the AI is just too stupid to realize strategically how to counter this concept right now. There's a lot of those opportunities throughout the whole game tbh. Honestly, Neanderthal Mammoths are a hell of a lot more uber than the Neanderthal warrior. Takes 2 or 3 decent spear units to hold against one of them at best and the AI horribly undervalues spears.
Its exactly how experinced player use them, but cant use it that way, its too stupid for it. Hence this unit is huuuge advantage for player and I think its overpowered.
Small map? Gigantic pits earth map. So no, your argument is wrong. Neanderthal spiked clubman(NSC) are tribal guardians killer and conqueror of cities. You need only 1-5 NSC to kill guardian and you get second city in time when nobody else cant build tribal setllers. Now imagine how huge this advantage is. If you are smart enough you get 6+ cities before first tribal settlers start settling cities.
Another mistake you make in this statemant:
You can defend against mammoths with spearman, because at that time you aready researched tech for them, even when you lost some city to them you probabaly have another cities so your civ can survive, but how do you want defend against NSC when axes are 22 techs away and you have only city and your best defence unit is tribal guardian???
BTW what about nukes?, you never answered.
Somebody613
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2019
- Messages
- 2,379
A bigger mistake is that N.S.C. only needs Stone or Caves (and speaking of Pit's map, some civs have that BY DESIGN) - but N.Mammoth would require... subduing a Mammoth, lol.
That's way too HARD (you need to not only KILL it, but also to do it in a LUCKY way) to be a viable unit option, unless you get it RANDOMLY.
Whereas N.S.C. is easily accessible to most civs and can be built quickly enough, if you beeline towards it.
So, yeah, it's a Player-only CHEAT, lol.
Plus, if you play with Free Promotions, you can get a BEAST in no time - I've had units with Combat FIVE, while still Level 2 or so.
Plus plus, Merging aka x1.5 Strength, yup.
Not that I mind this cheat (and use it a lot), lol, but it has to be acknowledged as a CHEAT.
That's way too HARD (you need to not only KILL it, but also to do it in a LUCKY way) to be a viable unit option, unless you get it RANDOMLY.
Whereas N.S.C. is easily accessible to most civs and can be built quickly enough, if you beeline towards it.
So, yeah, it's a Player-only CHEAT, lol.
Plus, if you play with Free Promotions, you can get a BEAST in no time - I've had units with Combat FIVE, while still Level 2 or so.
Plus plus, Merging aka x1.5 Strength, yup.
Not that I mind this cheat (and use it a lot), lol, but it has to be acknowledged as a CHEAT.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Ok, so you can dominate pretty hard with them. But to say the game is over because you did if you're on such a large map is an overstatement. You have lots of other civs left to contend with and if you kept any of that territory than you're suffering in upkeep. If that's not a problem and we've let infinite growth become too easy, then I would label that the real problem. Again, you can do this with enough spiked clubmen alone.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Because that is how they and Other special Culture units were designed and combed thru thoroughly by testing by the Author of them along with the Modding team back whn they were introduced into the mod.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong or OP. That is just your Opinion. And really I don't need to justify something that has been tried and tested for years to any player. Just because you asked "why".
Similar threads
- Locked
- Poll