Balanced Civ Lineup for TSL?

[Virupaksha]

My 10 pence worth

20 civs to make the maths easy (easier).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent#Area_and_population

By area (extra civ in europe and asia to make up for antarctica).
Asia (7) Chinese, Indians, Mongols, Persians, Arabians, Siamese, Javanese
Americas (6) Americans, Lakota, Aztecs, Mayans, Inca, Brazilians
Africa (4) Ethiopians, Egyptians, Malians, Zulu
Europe (2) Romans, Russians
Australia (1) Aboriginies(?)

By Population:
Asia (12) Chinese, Mandarins, Cantonese, Indians, Punjabis, Bengalis, Dravidians, Japanese, Siamese, Javans, Persians, Arabians,
Africa (3) Hausa, Ethiopians, Egyptians
Americas (3) Americans, Aztecs, Inca
Europe (2) Germans, Russians

Totally subjective top 20 (no references)
Asia (9) Chinese, Indians, Mongols, Persians, Arabs, Japanese, Sumerians, Ottomans, Javanese
Europe (5) Romans, Greeks, French, English, Russians
Americas (3) Americans, Maya, Inca
Africa (3) Egyptians, Ethiopians, Malians

 

[Krajzen]

Not to mention they have not much competition as representatives of South Africa.

Great Zimbabwe is far better as "civilisation" than very overrated Zulus (that shouldn't be in series imo, even in the name of tradition) and it lied not very far from Zululand.

Not to mention the fact not every part of the world needs representation (and I say it as rabid anti-eurocentrist) - Australia, Canada, Sahara proper, Siberia and South Africa (understood as SA+Namibia+Botswana) didn't have actual pre colonial civilisations (only very scattered societies on pre-civ level) and game shouldn't invent SF stuff just to populate them at all cost.

 

[Art Grin]

There's always the option of a South African or Boer civ to fill this area.

 

[j51]

Charlie should be a hidden leader you can only use if you beat the game on Emperor difficulty as a European civ by 800 A.D. This then unlocks him as a second leader option for the French, Germans, Dutch or any other civ came of his empire.

Yes! I've often thought about that idea myself.

My list for the first 25:
Asia (9): Arabian, Assyrian, Ottoman, Persian, Indian, Khmer, Chinese, Mongolian, Japanese
Europe (8): English, French, Spanish, Roman, Greek, German, Russian, Norse
Africa (4): Egyptian, Ethiopian, Carthaginian, Malian
Americas (4): American, Aztec, Maya, Inca

 

[Krajzen]

There's always the option of a South African or Boer civ to fill this area.

I'd say it is as extremely unlikely as New Zealand or other *rather minor rather modern nations*

But then I reminded myself, even if it wasn't, Firaxis is always trying to avoid politically problematic themes (no Israel, no Tibet, no Hitler, no great propher names in civ5, carefully avoiding "fascist" terms in Autocratic ideology tree etc) and generally representing bright side of history, and Boers/South Africa are unlikely to appear because of *ekhem* racism.

Not to mention the fact Africa needs more black civilisations if we are aiming at diversity.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kingdom of Kongo was introduced in Civ6 - somehow it became one of fan favourites in polls (including me), it fills very blank central African area, and was pretty cool civilisation.

 

[nunor]

Not to mention the fact not every part of the world needs representation

Don't forget we're discussing the most probable civilizaton roster based on True Start Location distribution. If Firaxis wants to have a more balanced geographical distribution, as they have hinted, they will have to consider representing less visited parts of the world.

Unfortunately, this thread is derailing to a general "which civs do you think will be in the game".

 

[Krajzen]

Don't forget we're discussing the most probable civilizaton roster based on True Start Location distribution. If Firaxis wants to have a more balanced geographical distribution, as they have hinted, they will have to consider representing less visited parts of the world.

Unfortunately, this thread is derailing to a basic "which civs do you think will be in the game".

Yeah, but while they have many civs to choose from to fill void of Central Asia, southern half of Africa, South-Eastern Asia or South America, there simply aren't such civilisations for some barren, almost uninhabited parts of the world. I prefer Canada, Australia, Siberia etc to be empty on TSL maps than to have some fantasy civs just for the sake of geographic perfectionism (no, Inuits Yakuts and Aborigines were not civilizations and there is nothing insulting in that, not all human societies fill the requirements of civilization)


Anyway, that interview and Ed specifically mentioning TSL map distribution has shaken my predictions about "guaranteed starting civs roster" a bit. Maybe this time we won't see North American Indians "overlapping" American territory but Incas first? Or another SA civilisation? And I seriously hope to see something in Subsaharan Africa further south than Ethiopia but not Zulu.

 

[Atlas627]

Alright, I'll give this a try. This is a guess for release.

Americas
- USA (confirmed)
- Aztecs (they're always in, and they cover Central America)
- Inca (definitely the first civ to place in South America)
- Brazil (covers Atlantic South America well)
- Northwest Native Americans (hard to tell which ones, since Firaxis has to negotiate with living tribes first)

Africa
- Egypt (confirmed)
- Zulu (they're always in, and they cover South Africa)
- West African Empire (they've done Mali, Songhai, and Morocco before, probs Mali again this time)
- Ethiopia (pretty much the obvious choice for East Africa)

Europe
- England (they'll need some naval civs)
- Rome (can't skip Rome)
- Greece (ditto)
- France (counterbalance to England)
- Germany (last of the World War trio)
- Russia (somebody needs to cover the northeast)
- Ottomans (can't leave out the City of the World's Desire, and I doubt they'd do Byzantium before the Ottomans)
- Spain (great religious civ and agenda opportunities, also need a colonizing civ)

Asia
- Japan (confirmed)
- China (confirmed)
- India (you have to have India. Also I think they already showed Gandhi?)
- Persia (counterbalance to Greece, also covers Central Asia decently)
- Arabia (the Caliphate was too big to leave out, also great Religious civ opportunity)
- Southeast Asian Empire (Indonesia, Siam, Khmer)
- Mongolia (covers Siberia, also Genghis had the biggest land empire in history)


And that's 24 civs, which seems like the maximum they might have on release. If they want to cover all the holes that leaves with expansions, then I'd guess:

Americas
- Iroquois (they're in every game and cover the US Midwest in a TSL game)
- Maya (would fill out the rest of Central America, while the Aztecs would now grab the US Southwest)

Africa
- Central African Civ (Kongo? Some amalgamation of cultures?)
- Carthage

Europe
- Poland (Civ sells like hotcakes there, also covers East Europe while Russia then covers Siberia)
- Portugal (will need another naval/colonizing civ)
- Byzantium (its always weird to me that they have both Ottos and Byzies, but I'm sure they will)
- Scandinavian Civ (Sweden seems likely, but they might do Vikings, do both, or combine them)
- Netherlands (river/naval civ will be unique)
- Celts (will probably be included, also interesting interactions with pantheons/religion)

Asia
- Pacific Islander Civ (Indonesia and/or Polynesia)
- Fertile Crescent Civ (Babylon/Sumeria/Assyria)
- Timurids (covers Central Asia better than Persia does alone)
- Korea (small science powerhouse would be very unique if they want to go expansion-heavy gameplay-wise)

That puts us at 38, which still leaves plenty of room for dark horse civs. If they include Vikings, Sweden, Indonesia, Polynesia, Babylon, Sumeria, AND Assyria, we'll be at 42, which is still less than Civ5. And if they add the 2 of Songhai/Mali/Morocco, plus the other of Siam/Khmer they didn't have before, we'll have 45.

Edit: The expansion guesses care less about TSL, but I still factored it in. At some point, you're going to screw up TSL with more civs, since many civs overlapped in the great places to live.

 

[nunor]

Alright, I'll give this a try. This is a guess for release.

Americas
- USA (confirmed)
- Aztecs (they're always in, and they cover Central America)
- Inca (definitely the first civ to place in South America)
- Brazil (covers Atlantic South America well)
- Northwest Native Americans (hard to tell which ones, since Firaxis has to negotiate with living tribes first)

Africa
- Egypt (confirmed)
- Zulu (they're always in, and they cover South Africa)
- West African Empire (they've done Mali, Songhai, and Morocco before, probs Mali again this time)
- Ethiopia (pretty much the obvious choice for East Africa)

Europe
- England (they'll need some naval civs)
- Rome (can't skip Rome)
- Greece (ditto)
- France (counterbalance to England)
- Germany (last of the World War trio)
- Russia (somebody needs to cover the northeast)
- Ottomans (can't leave out the City of the World's Desire, and I doubt they'd do Byzantium before the Ottomans)
- Spain (great religious civ and agenda opportunities, also need a colonizing civ)

Asia
- Japan (confirmed)
- China (confirmed)
- India (you have to have India. Also I think they already showed Gandhi?)
- Persia (counterbalance to Greece, also covers Central Asia decently)
- Arabia (the Caliphate was too big to leave out, also great Religious civ opportunity)
- Southeast Asian Empire (Indonesia, Siam, Khmer)
- Mongolia (covers Siberia, also Genghis had the biggest land empire in history)

I generally agree with this list, I think it achieves a good balance of location distribution. Maybe just add another African civ to round up to 25.

For the Native American tribe, I place my bet on the Cree led by Big Bear. They would be an innovative addition and would generally cover the whole Canada region.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ever since I thought about it, having only 1 civ representing the Indian subcontinent is a joke. It's like dumping Spain or Ottomans because you have Rome.

From TSL perspective having something like Mughals to content with other Indian civ(s) and Persia would make some sense, it's still less compressed than Europe.

 

[Captain Fargle]

Something to bear in mind is that it's already been confirmed there will be DLC Civs. The question is who those will be. My guess is that they'll probably make them to fill in popular Civs that don't make the cut for the main game.

Sumer, Poland, Korea and so forth. We might not even see a properly fleshed out TSL map until the inevitable expansions.

 

[Captain Fargle]

Ever since I thought about it, having only 1 civ representing the Indian subcontinent is a joke. It's like dumping Spain or Ottomans because you have Rome.

From TSL perspective having something like Mughals to content with other Indian civ(s) and Persia would make some sense, it's still less compressed than Europe.

This. Absolutely.

Mughals would definitely be my first choice as well along with one of the Tamil Kingdoms like the Chola. Or if you want to go for a real wildcard you could add in The Timurids.

Sadly I don't think any of that would be happening with the Vanilla release.

 

[Thormodr]

Would be nice to see Vijayanagara, the terror of the EU series, make an entrance.

It's always been sad that India, which is as ethnically diverse as Europe, has only been represented by one Civ.

In regards to the Mughals, that is an excellent idea.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

This. Absolutely.

Mughals would definitely be my first choice as well along with one of the Tamil Kingdoms like the Chola. Or if you want to go for a real wildcard you could add in The Timurids.

Sadly I don't think any of that would be happening with the Vanilla release.

Timurids would be more DLC realm but plenty valid in principle.

There's at least half a dozen "vanilla" type civs (by the sound) that have no place beating out the Mughals (people unfamiliar with the history there really need to consider the size/pop/duration of some of these nations) though, and they're not India's only example...

As for Central Asia, as it has no representatives in Civ a straightforward choice would be Shaybanid/Bukhara, and I would prefer them to Timurids since they're not an unreasonable addition and better-spaced for a TSL lineup. AFAIK they're the largest representative of the region (similar land area to Byzantine and land/pop to Safavid Persia). Timurids were larger but shorter lived and if you include Persia/Mughals would be more awkward in TSL.

 

[Zaarin]

I'd love to see the Haida/Tlingit/Tsimshian replace the Iroquois or Sioux this time around. Not only do I have a personal fascination with the PNW culture, but I think it would be a fascinating subversion of tropes to have a culture-focused Native American civilization. Could look something like this:

Name: Tlingit
Great Leader: Sheiyksh
Unique Ability: Raven Steals the Sun: Some sort of bonus related to seafaring and culture
Unique Unit: Haida War Canoe* (replaces an early ship)
Unique Building: Ḵwaan (replaces ? -- increases housing, other benefit)
Unique Improvement: Totem Pole (generates culture and faith)
*They were used by most Northwestern peoples.

 

[Captain Fargle]

I'd love to see the Haida/Tlingit/Tsimshian replace the Iroquois or Sioux this time around. Not only do I have a personal fascination with the PNW culture, but I think it would be a fascinating subversion of tropes to have a culture-focused Native American civilization. Could look something like this:

Name: Tlingit
Great Leader: Sheiyksh
Unique Ability: Raven Steals the Sun: Some sort of bonus related to seafaring and culture
Unique Unit: Haida War Canoe* (replaces an early ship)
Unique Building: Ḵwaan (replaces ? -- increases housing, other benefit)
Unique Improvement: Totem Pole (generates culture and faith)
*They were used by most Northwestern peoples.

What would his Unique Agenda be?

 

[askia53]

I like this development, considering that I have always wished for more spread out civs to really represent the whole world. I have always wanted to see a Taino/Carib civ in the game, as unlikely as it may be. Europe is well represented, and if USA, Aztecs, and a western American Civ like the Chinook, Inuit, or Shoshone make an appearance, North America would be covered. A TSL for Canada would actually be quite close to USA anyways. South America would be covered decently well with the Inca and then Brazil, although I would have some interest in Gran Colombia, even though it didn't exist for very long. Africa needs more civs in the center and south, and I like the idea of having Kongo. Egypt, Mali/Songhai, Kongo, Zulu, and hopefully Ethiopia would cover Africa decently. If we have the usual suspects for Asia, (Japan, Mongols, China, India, Ottomans, Arabia, Persia,) then to cover Asia we would ideally have Indonesia, Mughals or a Central Asian Civ, and maybe an Indochinese one. Then we could have Polynesia back, or replace it with Australia or the Maori. This makes 20. Add the 6 european civs that were in vanilla Civ 5 (Im assuming they wouldn't add more here if they wanted more geographic diversity for TSL) and you have 26, which would be a bit much. Take out Ethiopia and the Indochinese Civ and you have 24, which is still optimistic, but these 24 would give pretty dang good geographic diversity. Sorry for the long post, but i felt my re-entry post to this forum after 3 years should be a good one

 

[Zaarin]

What would his Unique Agenda be?

Good question. Perhaps he approves of just wars but disapproves of surprise wars, though it sounds like most civs already have that attitude without an agenda--though he could certainly take it to an extreme.

 

[Cyon]

My ideas for African Civilizations, there are several interesting civs to chose from, the following are best for a geographic spread:
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Kingdom of Kongo - One of the larger and more long lasting civilizations in the area, a Central African kingdom, where we otherwise would have a big hole.

Leader: Queen Ana de Sousa Nzinga Mbande (Of the sub kingdoms Ndongo and Matamba) Or João I Nzinga a Nkuwu who actually ruled the Kongo, but who I don't find as interesting.

Capital: M'banza-Kongo

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Ashanti Empire The largest and one of the more interesting coastal west African civilizations.

Leader: Queen Yaa Asantewaa, another female leader, she lead a uprising against the British.

Capital: Kumasi

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Kilwa Sultanate- Covers the whole coast of East Africa, representing Swahili speakers - the largest African language, and is a lot like an African Hansa.

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Mali Empire - Probably their turn to return.

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Berbers - represented as Morocco in Civ 5, a earlier pre islamic depiction could be interesting. Also some focus on the Tuareg sub group would be nice.

Leader: Queen Kahina / Dihya / Tihya - 7th century Berber queen how resisted Arab influence, probably Jewish.

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Ethiopia

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Egypt

 

[AriochIV]

The trouble with picking additional African or South American civilizations is how you make them distinct in game terms.