Believe or die!

[arcan]

would it be possible to maje the game so that we don't know in advance what techs unlock religion. So every time a new tech is discovered by someone there is x chance of a new religion being founded (maybe 'religious' techs could have 2x chance to make them better). Because if you think about it a king can t just decide to invent a new religion, its much more random.

It's been done several times...

 

[zeeter]

Second: Organized religion - Very hard to beat. +25% to construction is comething really hard to compete. My proposal was to make paganism or "absence of religion"(I don't like this one) a kind of rel too so OR can be applied to that too - like Polytheism/Priesthood will povide an option to make Paganism state religion. At least that can compensate that bonuses until Free Religion.

Phyr - I did read your whole post, but didn't want to put a long quote in here.

Not to sound like a smart-a**, but it sounds to me like you want to have the benefits that come from having a religion without having a religion. If you mean that you want to change one of the religions to Paganism or VooDoo or something, then that's fine. Understood. Mod-away.

If you're saying that you don't want to have a religion at all, but still get Organized Religion, Pacifism, and Theocracy then I disagree completely. Those are the benefits of having a religion in the game.

The point of having those religions and civics is to exemplify the effects that religion has had on civilization. Organized Religion is a civic based on the people of your civilization following one primary faith. They work harder because they have a certain belief system and just about everyone else that they know has that same belief. I don't think that it is reasonable to suggest, as you seem to do, that they work harder because they don't believe in anything. That defeats the purpose.

 

[zeeter]

would it be possible to maje the game so that we don't know in advance what techs unlock religion. So every time a new tech is discovered by someone there is x chance of a new religion being founded (maybe 'religious' techs could have 2x chance to make them better). Because if you think about it a king can t just decide to invent a new religion, its much more random.

I see where you're going with this. Maybe an even better plan would be to have religions founded in goodie huts. Then the warrior, or whatever unit found it, would turn into a missionary and bring the religion back to his civilization. If he dies along the way, the faith dies with him!

 

[GreenMonkey]

Religion was useful in the days before real science existed. It pacified the masses (and continues to do so). It did have real benefits as far as helping civs.

I like to grab as many religions as I can, build all the religious shrines, and leave my religion on Paganism. I move to free religion later as I refuse to run a Theocracy.

 

[zeeter]

Religion was useful in the days before real science existed. It pacified the masses (and continues to do so). It did have real benefits as far as helping civs.

I like to grab as many religions as I can, build all the religious shrines, and leave my religion on Paganism. I move to free religion later as I refuse to run a Theocracy.

Wow! What do you have against the state religion civics? I think that they're great. 25% build increase on Organized Religion. +2 Experience for military born under Theocracy. Pacifism I could live without, but I guess if I've already built everything and don't have enough different religions to justify Free Religion it will do. You get nothing for paganism, other than not having to pay any maintenance.

To me, the benefits of 25% build increase FAR outweigh the maintenance involved. Especially when considering that you'll have banks to make up for it. And if you have a shrine and can spread the religion to other civs then Organized religion can pay for itself within a few years! Yes, sounds like an infomercial. I know.

 

[Fredric Drum]

Yeah, there's not really any way of making Atheism work except if they made it very different to the other religions.

Maybe it could be like having no religion except you get some kind of bonus? Like... I'm thinking public order but that doesn't make any sense... maybe... gah, it just wouldn't work.

Science. Religious civs are very conservative and fight any new idea that could challenge their old 'truths'. Thus, atheistic civs get a science bonus

 

[arcan]

Science. Religious civs are very conservative and fight any new idea that could challenge their old 'truths'. Thus, atheistic civs get a science bonus

Wrong. Ancient Geece is an exemple. As well assome middle east civilizations (both ancient with pagan religions, and with islam)!
Christianty has a major problem with science. Not all religions...

 

[Phyr_Negator]

it sounds to me like you want to have the benefits that come from having a religion without having a religion.

Nope, everything must came at a price. Again I repeat - I don't care about mods - I'm talking about multiplayer. And again - Paganism can be discribed as religion that mean all not mentioned. For example after discovery of polytheism(or other early tech) you get option to make Paganism a religion or leave as no-state. That at least will solve some problems with those who don't like listed 7 religions. My point is about making religion an OPTION not a "must have" choice.

 

[zeeter]

Oh. I see. So in game terms, you're suggesting that with the discovery of Polytheism, Paganism (or whatever you want to call it) will become a religion. Then you could spread that out to your other cities, just like the other religions would.

And BTW: just because you HAVE a religion, doesn't mean that you have to immediately choose a state religion. Sometimes it actually hurts you to do that.

 

[arcan]

I've played a game, discovered all religions, and never had a state religion...

 

[zeeter]

I've played a game, discovered all religions, and never had a state religion...

Just curious as to why you'd do that. It's easy to pick one - usually your first one - and spread it around to all of your cities. Then you get all of the cool state religion benefits. The civic doesn't cost THAT much.

I'm not saying it's wrong, just not sure how that would be of any benefit.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

No, no, I mean an OPTION to make it religion, wich will make only cosmetical changes(like choise beweet taosism, or what poly will create - forgot) or you can leave no-state. That'll remove most of unhappiness that their rel is not presented(but I guess some would not like that their rel is referred as Pagan). And having religion is ok, but game concepts such as culture bonus and ability to build temples wories. Several times already in multiplayer opponent with religion cut me off resources due to bonus in border cities. Later I got to spawn tons of horse archers to slow down his +25% bonus by invading his territory and pillaging every improvement. I can say that only horses saved my day then, but if he managed to have them as well or I got no horses - my civ would be crushed by superior bonuses for sure.

 

[arcan]

Just curious as to why you'd do that. It's easy to pick one - usually your first one - and spread it around to all of your cities. Then you get all of the cool state religion benefits. The civic doesn't cost THAT much.

I'm not saying it's wrong, just not sure how that would be of any benefit.

First, i didn't check how to declare a state religion...
second, I could spread all religions in my country and countries around (so causing a good mayhem between AIs... ) and build a lot of shrines in my cities to get the bonus linked

 

[zeeter]

No, no, I mean an OPTION to make it religion, wich will make only cosmetical changes(like choise beweet taosism, or what poly will create - forgot) or you can leave no-state. That'll remove most of unhappiness that their rel is not presented(but I guess some would not like that their rel is referred as Pagan). And having religion is ok, but game concepts such as culture bonus and ability to build temples wories.

I'm still not sure what you are getting at. You want to have an option to remain in paganism, or basically no religion, and receive culture from that?

Or, are you simply saying that instead of Buddhism they can choose Paganism as their religion and go from there as if Paganism was one of the seven religions in the game?

On a side note - I know that there's a ton of religions in the world, however I think that they've got the most popular ones covered. I'm sure that the disgruntled in this case are by FAR a minority.

 

[zeeter]

First, i didn't check how to declare a state religion...
second, I could spread all religions in my country and countries around (so causing a good mayhem between AIs... ) and build a lot of shrines in my cities to get the bonus linked

I had trouble with that at first, too. I'd go to the religion screen, choose my religion, then exit. I didn't know that I had to pick "convert" first.

 

[Tikal]

My take, religion belongs in the game.

Different religions formalized many of civilizations 'rules' if you will.

That said, the early benefits appear to FAR outway the negatives. As it should EARLY on, perhaps if you adopt a state religion, SOME techs should be more expensive.... especially Astronomy.

Heliocentric solar system you say: Heresy!

 

[arcan]

My take, religion belongs in the game.

Different religions formalized many of civilizations 'rules' if you will.

That said, the early benefits appear to FAR outway the negatives. As it should EARLY on, perhaps if you adopt a state religion, SOME techs should be more expensive.... especially Astronomy.

Heliocentric solar system you say: Heresy!

Qhy? one of the oldest astronomical towers is in the vatican... Most of the famous astronomers were priests or were related to the curch (like galileo)...

 

[Thehistoryman]

I kinda think that Free Religion is defacto athesim for the games purposes anyway. You cant stop your people from believing but the relgion pretty much no longer affects you one way or another.

 

[zeeter]

Qhy? one of the oldest astronomical towers is in the vatican... Most of the famous astronomers were priests or were related to the curch (like galileo)...

The ancient sumarians had astrological calendars. They even knew pluto was there, despite the fact that it wasn't proven to exist until the 20th century.

 

[GreenMonkey]

Wow! What do you have against the state religion civics? I think that they're great. 25% build increase on Organized Religion. +2 Experience for military born under Theocracy. Pacifism I could live without, but I guess if I've already built everything and don't have enough different religions to justify Free Religion it will do. You get nothing for paganism, other than not having to pay any maintenance.

To me, the benefits of 25% build increase FAR outweigh the maintenance involved. Especially when considering that you'll have banks to make up for it. And if you have a shrine and can spread the religion to other civs then Organized religion can pay for itself within a few years! Yes, sounds like an infomercial. I know.

Principle, partially, and game mechanics, partially. A theocracy is the scariest kind of government IMO next to maybe an extreme police state. The XP for units I'm not a big fan of, I'm not that militaristic of a civ.

Now Organized religion, I use that. If I can't found the early religions I make a beeline for Confucianism, as I like Confucianism and run Organized Religion with it, then (Confucianism is more of a philosophy than a "religion" per se, which is why I like it).