Benefits of First Strike

[KrikkitTwo]

Well a First Strike for a Catapult can imply very long Range.

 

[Jaybe]

Superior first strikes by any unit can imply:
Stealth (as in sneaky), Deception, superior Intelligence;
Good use of environment -- local Terrain & Weather;
Protection by other friendly forces;

... and especially superiority of local commanders over their opponents!

 

[DaviddesJ]

But that's the point. If the unit being attacked isn't suffering damage, that means he wiped out the siege unit before it could even launch an attack. Why is it everyone else in the tile takes damage?

If the engaged defender takes no damage, that means that it was strong enough, once it engaged the attacking siege unit, to destroy it without taking damage. But the siege unit still inflicts collateral damage, by shelling all of the units in the target space, before the defender can engage and destroy it.

 

[NP300]

Am I correct in assuming that, since you should be higher strength than your opponent unit, giving Drill promotions to city attackers is a poor idea? City defend bonuses affect defender Strength numbers, right? Having multiple first strikes as an underdog is not as beneficial as having City Attack promotions to even the odds, right?

Actually the first strike is most beneficial for city defenders. That's because the unit gets the first strike along with the city's defense bonuses, whereas the combat bonus is merely added to the city's defense bonuses. In effect, the first strikes multiply with the defense bonuses while the extra strength is merely added.

So city defense is the only time that the drill promotion can outperform the combat promotion by any significant amount. Yeah, first strikes may outperform combat I when you have an overwhelming advantage but who cares about the tiny advantage from 99.6% to 99.8%?

See the discussion here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137615&page=8

 

[Watiggi]

Wow. That's a good point! If both units have first strikes then either the round is skipped or it plays out and nothing off course happens (I am not sure which of these happens but the result is the same). That would mean that a seige unit with at least one first strike for every one of the archers/longbowmens first strikes would effectively eliminate the defenders first strike advantage.

That also explains why the Keshik looses its 'immune to first strikes' and instead has it replaced with '1 first strike'. Come to think it, getting 1 first strike is going to mean less now considering the Protective traits bias towards first strikes.

Watiggi

 

[El Koeno]

While we're discussing this: Samurai are basically macemen with two first strikes. Usually it attacks cities, which are usually defended by archery units with first strikes. So the only benefit the samurai enjoys is that it cancels out two of the denfender's first strikes. Is this really that useful? Might a strength bonus (from 8 to 9 for example) be better?

 

[gdgrimm]

While we're discussing this: Samurai are basically macemen with two first strikes. Usually it attacks cities, which are usually defended by archery units with first strikes. So the only benefit the samurai enjoys is that it cancels out two of the denfender's first strikes. Is this really that useful? Might a strength bonus (from 8 to 9 for example) be better?

Well, actually I see the Samurai's first strikes as being a way to beat their counter, which is Macemen. Bear in mind, Samurai's already start with Combat I -- no experience necessary, so though they are stated as Strength 8, they're actually Strength 8.8 (almost the 9 you mention). With the first strikes, a Samurai will beat a Maceman (or survive an attack from a Maceman) the majority of the time.

I really don't see the Samurai as being all that much better at cracking cities than their Maceman replacement (the free Combat I promo excepted).

 

[Bungholio]

first strike is when your unit attacks first from a far, damaging the oposing unit and giving yours an advantage.

 

[Watiggi]

Well, actually I see the Samurai's first strikes as being a way to beat their counter, which is Macemen.

The counter to the Samurai (and the Macemen in general) are Crossbowmen, not Macemen. Crossbowmen have a bonus to mele; Macemen and Samurai don't have a bonus to Crossbowmen.

 

[El Koeno]

Well, actually I see the Samurai's first strikes as being a way to beat their counter, which is Macemen. Bear in mind, Samurai's already start with Combat I -- no experience necessary, so though they are stated as Strength 8, they're actually Strength 8.8 (almost the 9 you mention). With the first strikes, a Samurai will beat a Maceman (or survive an attack from a Maceman) the majority of the time.

I really don't see the Samurai as being all that much better at cracking cities than their Maceman replacement (the free Combat I promo excepted).

I guess that's true. But since the most important task I have for my macemen/samurai is taking cities, it might not be a really good UU. Not too bad either though, since -as you stated - a samurai is very good at other tasks.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well Standard units almost never have more than 1 First Strike, so the Samurai's 2 First Strikes, cancels out one (there's one round of combat where noone can do damage) and then gives it one of its own.

 

[gdgrimm]

The counter to the Samurai (and the Macemen in general) are Crossbowmen, not Macemen. Crossbowmen have a bonus to mele; Macemen and Samurai don't have a bonus to Crossbowmen.

Good point.

I guess my reply was too narrowly focused on the context of "El Koeno"s remark that I was replying to. He was suggesting that the Samurai's wasn't much better at city taking than the Macemen, and my comment was based more on pointing out that I find the Samurai's benefits more important in the field (getting him to the city), than in the actual city attack itself.

Perhaps another reason for me making my statement is that I seldom see the AI build Crossbowmen. It seems to want to grab Feudalism quicker, then use Longbowmen to try to protect it's cities from Macemen.

 

[Murky]

The counter to the Samurai (and the Macemen in general) are Crossbowmen, not Macemen. Crossbowmen have a bonus to mele; Macemen and Samurai don't have a bonus to Crossbowmen.

Samurai have a +25% vs. Archery promotion. Not sure about the Macemen.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

They don't have it innately though

 

[Watiggi]

Samurai have a +25% vs. Archery promotion. Not sure about the Macemen.

Wow! Never knew that. I would prefer Combat promotions personally over City Raider or Cover though. Just making a unit generically stronger makes it more versatile in my mind. I have also found, within reason, that the odds aren't much different. Mind you, I have only tested it in a very limited way, so I could be waaay off at the high level of promotions (ie, A Combat V unit vs. a Combat I, City Raider III and Cover unit).

 

[CantaloupeKing]

March and Drill promotions make great combination promotions for strong units that need to fly through hostile areas or clear a path for more specialized units. First strikes allow them to kill and take less damage and March allows them to continue the assault without having to heal, which will guaranteedly get you killed if you're smack dab in the middle of the enemy's borders. Perfect for the Kamikaze dash to the enemy capitol without taking other cities along the way.
-The King

 

[ekanata]

I think this works really well if you're defending a city against an AI's assinine barrage of dozens of units. Rather than each attacking unit having the capacity to deal damage to your defenders, a Cho-Ko-Nu with 6 or 7 first strikes could take out a good number of them without them laying a finger on your troops.

Even if the next patch/expansion does it (first strike round before colateral), if the other unit in the tile has higher strength (like mace or charging HA) then the drill4 CKN will step aside to let that other unit to defend against the siege unit, making the CKN eligible to recieve colateral damage.

 

[ronnybiggs]

Even if the next patch/expansion does it (first strike round before colateral), if the other unit in the tile has higher strength (like mace or charging HA) then the drill4 CKN will step aside to let that other unit to defend against the siege unit, making the CKN eligible to recieve colateral damage.

Well the effect of a catapult was a side issue. Fact is I can see the point in allowing catapults that kind of damage, it's like saying "if you can push up that many units to a guy's town, you should be able to wear down his forces and not wind up in a stalemate."

I was more thinking of watching my city, fortified with 4 longbowmen, having to put up with a 12 axemen/HA blitz (sans catapults) or something similar. Given their stats they can only last so long. In this case, I imagine a drill 4 CKN would be ideal (vs. melee bonus aside). Not only does every attacking unit get weakened by CKN first strike before it attacks, it subjects all other units in its tile to a CKN's collateral damage. It's a question of superior tech properly applied wiping out vast armies of inferior tech, and it's been a staple of mine in earlier civs.

Of couse, now I'm finding a drill 3 CKN just means 3-6 first strikes, not 6 strikes period. Yet one more thing that blows. Imagine a +10% combat bonus just meaning +0%-10% randomly selected. Why waste 3 promotions this way when you can just beef up a CKN to a strength 7.8 so they can tango with a maceman barrage?

 

[Zebra 9]

Samurai have a +25% vs. Archery promotion. Not sure about the Macemen.

I just checked the Samurai, & it does not have any bonuse vs archery.
Maybe I missed it or I miss understood what you said, or you are playing a mod or maybe you have the patch that I don't have.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I just checked the Samurai, & it does not have any bonuse vs archery.
Maybe I missed it or I miss understood what you said

He said that Samurai (and Macemen, etc.) can take the Cover promotion, which gives them a combat bonus against archery units.