Beyond Earth game mechanisms : Health

[Lord Yanaek]

Maybe someone should start a new thread about how to maximize research speed.
Won't be me. I'm not bad at digging into the database for numbers but i'm bad at projecting BPT for new cities over multiple turns.

 

[sprang]

Maybe someone should start a new thread about how to maximize research speed.
Won't be me. I'm not bad at digging into the database for numbers but i'm bad at projecting BPT for new cities over multiple turns.

I think all the theorycraft just went out the window with the patch. 20bpt for a spammed city is looking a little high...

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Yep. Time to start over.
Speaking of patch :
Health effects balancing:
• From -20 to -70, Production is penalized -1% per point (up to -50%).
• From -15 to -65, enemy Covert Ops Intrigue is increased +2% per point (up to +100%).
• From -10 to -60, Science is penalized -1% per point (up to -50%).
• From -5 to -55, Culture is penalized -1% per point (up to -50%).
• From 0 to -50, Outpost Growth is penalized -2% per point (up to -100%).
• From 0 to -50, City Growth is penalized -2% per point (up to -100%).
• From 1 to 5, nothing happens.
• From 5 to 25, Production bonus +1% per point (up to +20%).
• From 10 to 30, enemy Covert Ops Intrigue is decreased -2% per point (up to -40%).
• From 15 to 35, Science bonus +1% per point (up to +20%).
• From 20 to 40, Culture bonus +1 per point (up to +20%).
• From 25 to 45, City Growth bonus +1% per point (up to +20%).
• From 25 to 45, Outpost Growth bonus +2% per point (up to +40%).
And Eudaimonia is now 15% less negatvie health.

Will revise main posts for this later and check no other undocumented changes were done.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Considering the large number of modifiers and overlapping ranges of effect if might be good to have a chart to show it all. Which I might make if no one else does it.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

other changes
no health from Artists/Aristocrats
No trade route from Autoplants (less health from Industry)

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Considering the large number of modifiers and overlapping ranges of effect if might be good to have a chart to show it all. Which I might make if no one else does it.

Is it something like this you have in mind?

 

[rredding]

This thread is nicely done. Yeah definitely some nerfs to health generation but some nice perks for folks who spend the time to buff health up.

Again thanks for the write up.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Is it something like this you have in mind?

Somewhat. I was thinking more bar graphy. Health on the Y (high at the top), affected areas on the X, and bars with colours fading from light to dark to show when they start as mild penalties and when they get to their maximum.
However I didn't think a program would do that automatically so it seemed like I'd have to draw it manually which seemed like a lot of work.

 

[Packherd2]

Profitering (T2) : 0.5 per trade unit under your control. That's possibly 1 per city if every city runs both it's available trade routes, which is quite likely.

It seems to me that the effect is 0.5 health per unit, not route. Furthermore, it seems that there is no limit on the number of trade units you can control. That is, you may build/purchase a new convoy even if you've maxed out all your trade route slots.

Does this mean profiteering effectively grants infinite health? Please correct me if I'm missing something...

 

[Minor Annoyance]

It seems to me that the effect is 0.5 health per unit, not route. Furthermore, it seems that there is no limit on the number of trade units you can control. That is, you may build/purchase a new convoy even if you've maxed out all your trade route slots.

Does this mean profiteering effectively grants infinite health? Please correct me if I'm missing something...

I checked and yes. It's very eff'd up.

 

[joncnunn]

It seems to me that the effect is 0.5 health per unit, not route. Furthermore, it seems that there is no limit on the number of trade units you can control. That is, you may build/purchase a new convoy even if you've maxed out all your trade route slots.

Does this mean profiteering effectively grants infinite health? Please correct me if I'm missing something...

That would be significant change from BNW, where you weren't allowed to build new trade units if you didn't have routes available.
I'm predicting a future patch will disallow building/purchasing new convoys when you have maxed out all trade routes for your current max number of slots.

 

[sprang]

I checked and yes. It's very eff'd up.

Yup. You can build your way to health. Convoys are 60 each, don't cost Maint and don't count against the Unit Supply limits. So that's 120p per Health Point.

Compare, though:
Gene Gardens are 200p for 3H
Optical Surgery are 370p for 4H, +1H/Silica
Soma Distilleries are 400p for +4H, +10%.

Those are each in the roughly 75p/Health cost range. Plus, to get this Virtue, you took +10% & +25% for buildings, so the real cost per point of health is closer to 50p/health.

The Resurrection Device, at +8H for 1350p, looks to be substantially worse, at over 150p/health, but +15% Wonders, and then Crawler or PAC's bonus will get this down closer to 100p/health, still cheaper than trade units.

To be sure, the Trade Unit health is global health, but it is still reallllly expensive. The only cost reduction is in "Liquidity" for a 20% discount on energy prices. Which is something, but you're still paying over 400E per health.


==
ETA: Question: does the Repair Bay affect Convoy prices? That might save another 10% "Land Units" is the important language. The other unit discounts all say "Military" units.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Buildings are all limited to one per city, wonders one per world.Trade units are unlimited. The difference between 120p and 50p is substantial, but the difference between one and infinity is the key detail.

 

[Packherd2]

... The difference between 120p and 50p is substantial, but the difference between one and infinity is the key detail.

That's my hang up, too.

 

[CivScientist]

It's not really infinity, though. You're limited by the production of your cities. You're also limited by the opportunity costs of not building something else like, say, a settler or a marine with that production. I guess the real question is, how much in terms of units and buildings are you willing to give up to get a large, dense empire at +1 health? How much would you actually have to give up?

 

[omniclast]

It seems to me that the effect is 0.5 health per unit, not route. Furthermore, it seems that there is no limit on the number of trade units you can control. That is, you may build/purchase a new convoy even if you've maxed out all your trade route slots.

Does this mean profiteering effectively grants infinite health? Please correct me if I'm missing something...

This is amazing. lmao

 

[Xenotitan]

This thread could use an update on some of the health virtues.

Thread by Omniclast:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=540907

 

[sprang]

It's not really infinity, though. You're limited by the production of your cities. You're also limited by the opportunity costs of not building something else like, say, a settler or a marine with that production. I guess the real question is, how much in terms of units and buildings are you willing to give up to get a large, dense empire at +1 health? How much would you actually have to give up?

Or you could use the "Development" options - food, culture, etc. I think that's the most obvious trade-off. Given the % bonuses from health, choosing to build trade units instead of "Science @ 25%" might be worth it.

It's also true that just because trade units are a worse deal than everything else doesn't mean they're not still useful if it's all you have left. Sometimes, you just need more health, regardless of the cost. Especially, global health.

Trade unit health spam also lets you solve health problems in cities where you can't build lots of biowells - e.g., islands, or cities with lots of resources/mountains/lakes.

This thread could use an update on some of the health virtues.

Thread by Omniclast:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=540907

If anything, this makes TR Health Spam more powerful compared to some of the other virtues, like Community Medicine or Magnasanti. 2 units per Health is much easier to min/max than 5 buildings or 6 pop.

 

[Xenotitan]

Personally I don't use the trade unit health spam because I consider it an exploit.

 

[appleguard]

I've been trying to get a grip on the new rules for Promethean. I know it negates the automatic -4 penalty generated by that city, and I think it disables the city's population-based health penalty, but can I also carpet the ground with Manufactories without reducing that city's health level? The minimal testing I've done seems to indicate as such, but before I start wildly warping my Wonder strategies I want to check on this.

EDIT: Actually I think I was wrong about the -4 penalty, because that's still there. Seems more than a little confusing to me.