[BTS] BOTM 172: Saladin, Immortal: Final Spoiler

[krikav]

@Pangaea I do get how you are feeling.
I think that what you say echo something that @shakabrade wrote in that "Prepare to die!!!" Wang game.
"I know exacly why the AI does what he does, I feel like I'm just lensing ants, and it's not fun anymore".

I deliberately avoid memorizing every single mechanic, and don't consult charts and tables at every turn in the game. I do this because it keeps the AIs more human-like and give me the most satisfaction.
I'm playing abit of "make believe" and try to see Zara as a zealous bully who will bend his knee if I hit him with enough force, rather than 4/10 caputilation resist and 70 war succes.

I do see the allure and the enjoyment that could be had by just going full bananaz in this regard too! (Look at Kaitzillas take on the WvO in the jungle game from Lains thread).
It's sort of treating the game as an incredibly complex puzzle and to the best of effort try to lay out the pieces perfecly.

So I understand both approaches it's when they are to "compete" problems arise.
And these sorts of problems always arise in competitive gaming.
Speedrunning golden eye on nintendo64 was beloved by many, but then someone figured out that you could shave seconds of by constantly looking down at the ground. This made many toss in the towel there as well, because it felt deragatory and took what enjoyment they had of the game away.

For me I have a distinct advantage of not caring the least about the medals. So there is no problem for me to continue to partake.

But if you do crave that gold medal, and you want to play "natural" and compete with game mechanics utilization (I dislike the term 'abuse') you will likely have problems.

 

[pomthom]

If you are an Immortal+ level player you are already abusing many game mechanics

 

[jerza]

I'm very much a newbie here, but I really agree with what @Pangaea is saying.. The reason I play Civ4 is game immersion, and that would be completely ruined by something like gifting your enemy three cities before declaring war on them..

 

[Xcalibrator]

and that would be completely ruined by something like gifting your enemy three cities before declaring war on them..

Damn straight.

 

[pomthom]

I don't understand why we need to judge how other people play the game but oh well

 

[jerza]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's perfectly OK that different peple have different approaches to the game (and some of the early conquest/space games people have shown here are really impressive ), I'm definitely not saying that my approach is better or something like that, it's just how I enjoy playing Civ the most And this whole BOTM thing (the games and the community) is a great learning experience for me

 

[Pangaea]

Thank you @krikav and especially @jerza

I'm very much a newbie here, but I really agree with what @Pangaea is saying.. The reason I play Civ4 is game immersion, and that would be completely ruined by something like gifting your enemy three cities before declaring war on them..

I have always looked at these games as a more "pure" form than SGOTM, where details have gone to extremes. It's not that I overly care about medals or fastest wins or such, it's more about playing a game and trying to compare results when people are playing from totally different perspectives (I can't find the right word here, sorry). It's a race to the bottom. If one are to be somewhat competitive, one needs to abuse game mechanics in every way imaginable. So in SGOTM you have army teleportation, city gifts before war, or in reality during the war, massive test games and world buildering -- all that stuff and more. And now it's coming here too. I just find it a bit sad, I think, together with the dawning realisation that trying to do well in these games (in addition to have fun playing the game) is pretty much pointless. Hard to beat a Ferrari if you have a family Volvo with 3 wheels. Or perhaps more apt: hard to beat your own 100m record if you need to run 200m.

I can have some appreciation for people breaking the game too, and not just this one. Some always get a kick out of finding all sorts of odd exploits that make speed running or tough boss encounters a breeze. I just don't like that sort of stuff, and always try to play games like they were probably meant to be played. There is sort of a moral stance in there, but embracing the "exploits gone mad" playstyle would also make gaming boring (not just talking about Civ 4).

This is going back maybe 20 years, but I remember I happened to come upon an exploit or bug in a football game by coincidence. If I approached the goal and hit the ball straight forward while facing the right post, the ball would simply trickle in there - every time. What's the fun in that? Winning every game 20-0 or whatever became boring pretty fast - and if multiplayer existed back then for that game, it would make the whole thing futile, as it's just a 'competition' of who could exploit the bug the most.

Am glad to hear that some understand my position and even agree with it. Unfortunately there is no solution, though. Since these things aren't banned (which would be a nightmare to 'police' for the staff), people are going to use it if they want to gain the quickest possible win - means be damned. The only "solution" is for me to simply stop playing these games - or somehow learn to ignore the fact I'm not competing on equal terms with everybody else. It has been fun to get back into the game and play these games, I like the idea of everybody playing from the same start point (as opposed to the Hall of Fame, though that can be fun too). However, stuff like this is very demotivating, so I don't know if I will bother with it in the future. The forum and BOTM will survive very well without my participation of course, I'm just trying to explain my stance here, and why I find this whole thing pretty sad, demotivating and frustrating.

 

[lymond]

Well, Pangaea, most don't do all these little tricks, and I never really have either in my many years playing GOTM, and I have 3 Eptathletes. Ha..I've never really been smart enough to find and use these tricks. I don't see any reason why you can't continue having fun playing BOTMs and be competitive as well. That said, and a bit in defense of players that are smart enough, it does actually take a lot of planning and skill to pull off some of these things. It is not easy and certainly not always a given that they will work.

You are a good player, and I know you will always be competitive in these games. I recommend you keep playing and enjoying the fellowship and knowledge sharing these games provide.

 

[pomthom]

I get where you're coming from Pangaea but I think you're over blowing something minor. Everyone abuses game mechanics (knowing which techs to go for trade value, which civs can plot at Pleased, whipping, begging,...) - I mean you have Civ Illustrated in your signature
Yes some abuses are just a bit more extreme than others compared to the way "the game was meant to be played" but frankly people who use them and get excellent results would still get excellent results without them, that is not the differentiating factor. Come on no one is teleporting armies in GOTM..

I agree with lymond, you're a good player and you should keep it up. Guys you're referring to are really good because they've worked on the skill of playing Civ4, for hours upon endless hours, not because they abuse game mechanics. It's simply excellent competition, there shouldn't be anything demotivating or frustrating about that, right?

 

[Pangaea]

True. I have Civ Illustrated in my signature because I was part of the team that worked on it. In fact, I spent a stupid amount of hours to look up info and create various overviews, including coding stuff to auto-generate content (but that side project never really got anywhere from what I recall). It was a really bad time in my life, so it was good to have something of marginal importance to do. And I like using it to quickly look up starting techs and stuff like that, as I don't recall all these details off the top of my head. Since I tend to spam posts in the forum when I'm active playing (sorry guys and gals ), it's easy to look up one of my posts and click the link. And I really do think it's a fantastic piece of work. And yes, it's also nice to look up whether Washington or Gilgamesh or whoever will declare at pleased, when I have them in a game with a colossal army at my border. I see that more as knowledge/preparation than abusing game mechanics (but I can see an argument opposed to that view). Again, I don't remember all this stuff.

The tricky/cheese/exploits/whatever that has been discussed lately goes way beyond normal play, however. Sure, it does take great skill to actually execute it, and all these players are fantastic players. I'd feel dirty about using such tricks, however, and do feel sad and demotivated upon seeing this seeping into GOTM as well. And I certainly wouldn't put it past people to abuse army teleporting. Every other trick in the book is apparently being used now, probably WB and test games too, so why not teleporting.

All in all, this leaves a sour taste in my mouth, and I don't feel motivated to play these games any more, at least to actually finish them. Maybe I'll start on the Deity game, simply because Deity is a big challenge for me, but I've not decided yet. Currently I'm playing games offline or for the Hall of Fame. At some point I'll surely disappear from the forum again too. It's just how it is, and crap like this makes it more likely to happen sooner.

Kinda wish I started playing this game many years before I did, when people knew less about its inner workings and how to abuse mechanics. It must have been more 'pure' back then.

 

[lymond]

These forums are a better place with you in them, Pangaea. And GotMs and HOF are more honorable with you participating......

 

[shakabrade]

Well, I do not use anything that makes no sense like galleon chains, teleportations, worker baits, stuff like that. To be fair, chopping trees into space parts also makes no sense but we'll pretend it is okay. And don't use stuff like espionage to deduce what is in production, don't really micro, don't ever use test maps, GPP spreadsheets. Also in good part because I am lazy. And I am very consistent on deity without reloads and think also competitive. Grand strategy, tech trades and diplo are so much more important than all those high level exploits. 80/20 rule ftw. But creative exploits in SGOTM are also fun.

 

[Kaitzilla]

The only truly dirty exploit I feel is the X,Y coordinate the domestic advisor gives with Buffy.

Knowing exactly where my capital is on turn 1 if I know the map type is really unfair.
Send the Warrior northeast!


Other than changing that, banning city gifting for anything other than a peace treaty would be the only change I'd want.

 

[Fippy]

Very late here, but i understand you Pangaea.
I too was disappointed in many sgotm games lol, but also motivated later and overall had much more fun than headaches.

Sgotm are basically HoF style team games, and i think we all were fascinated by what WT, Kaitzilla and some other great players did there.
But the important bit: nobody forces us to play this way.

And also important, many of those tricks are inefficient in standard deity games (like Izzy Botm).
2 different worlds, and gotm should be relaxed playing imo. Like all sp games.