Campus Protests

[Bonyduck Campersang]

So that college students have been protesting over the Unmentionable Issue, and the authorities have cracked down brutally. Like this is going to change the protesters' minds. If anything it's going to make them look and feel more radical and revolutionary than ever. There's no attempt at engagement or conciliation, just an absolutely deranged pushback.

Also the blatantly deceptive way the protests are being covered and discussed. There's a lot of indignant puffing over the protesters 'preventing Jews from entering their classes.' This is of course an utterly stupid and inflammatory way to describe the protests considering a) a not significant amount of the protesters are Jews b) non-Jewish students can't enter their classes either. But here we an actual case of a Jewish professor being prevented from entering campus:

Jewish professor banned from US campus after arrest

A Jewish professor was filmed being violently arrested during an anti-Gaza war protest at Dartmouth College.

www.aljazeera.com

But of course it's the wrong sort of Jew so we won't see the antisemitism police talking about this.

There is little doubt that the brutal crackdowns are not so much due to the nature of the protests but rather due to being on the wrong side. There is plenty of evidence of violent actions from the counter-protesters on the right side, as in:

Israel supporters attack anti-war protesters at UCLA

A group of pro-Israel supporters have attacked anti-Gaza war protesters at the University of California, Los Angeles.

www.aljazeera.com

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/p...wn-during-protester-clash-at-ucla/ar-AA1nYdG9

Tension grows on UCLA campus as police order dispersal of large pro-Palestinian gathering

About 300 people were arrested in crackdowns on pro-Palestinian protests at Columbia University and City College, New York's mayor says.

apnews.com

But what am I saying? Of course the only violent side is the side that's on the wrong side.

But on to something more specific, and rather awesome even by 2024's standards. The NYPD Chief of Patrol was interviewed on NewsMax. There was the usual guff about young people being radicalised and what not, but the Chief Doughnut-Muncher also dropped two very interesting pieces of information:

1) That the protesters were armed to the teeth with equipment they normally wouldn't bring to campus. Amazingly, the Pastry Prince holds up a bicycle lock by way of example. But even more amazingly, this particular bicycle lock is sold by the university at the campus itself!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1785636351330713667

2) That the protesters were reading books on terrorism. (Students? Reading books? The horror!) The Baked Goods Guzzler-in-Chief holds up a book by way of example and asks 'What class is this on?' The book is actually 'Terrorism: A Very Short Introduction' published by the famously radical Oxford Press, and is part of the curriculum for National Security and Political Studies.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1786525532500177365

So yeah, that's what you'd expect to get from ransacking a student's bagpack. But that's not all. Amazingly it seems that the NYPD didn't get this book from a student's bagpack, but photocopied the cover, blowing it up to double its size, and then presented it as being found among the students' effects.

So what happened is
1) police show evidence of radical material
2) actually radical material turns out be commonplace academic material
3) actually the sample the police showed was manufactured by the police themselves
4) the police did such a bad job of searching they couldn't even find the original book
5) so a cop just sat on a PC and googled 'how to do terrorism' and sent it to the printers
6) but no-one in the entire department could be arsed to determine whether the size of the printed cover corresponded with the actual
7) or even bothered to read the book
8) no-one also thought it suspicious that Oxford Press would be publishing terrorist material

Outstanding work all around.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Definitely normal behaviour

https://twitter.com/x/status/1785904055149084675

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

I love Western Democracy

 

[Narz]

When I'm in NYC in a few weeks I'm going to visit Columbia university & see for myself, sounds pretty nuts

 

[Broken_Erika]

Faculty join U of T encampment protest​

U of T alumni have signed a letter in support, as encampment enters 3rd day​

Pro-Palestinian student protesters entered the third day of their encampment demonstration at the University of Toronto Saturday and saw some faculty joining them in support.

Robyn Maynard, an assistant professor at the University of Toronto, was at the encampment Saturday supporting students.

She said there's a large number of university faculty there in solidarity.

"We feel it's really important that we can be here as witnesses, given the kinds of dangers some of the students have been exposed to," she said.

"It's also important to be here, because their demands are important ... [by] asking the university to divest from Israel," she said.

Maynard said academic colleagues and students have been killed in Gaza and the university was destroyed.

She said the students will not leave until the school divests.

Maynard pointed out that Brown University and Rutgers University have agreed to look at students demands, in confronting their own student protests.

Israel's war against Hamas in Gaza was launched after the militant group's attacks on Oct. 7. About 1,200 people in Israel, mostly civilians, were killed and around 250 people were taken hostage, according to Israeli tallies.

The Israeli offensive has killed more than 34,000 Palestinians, according to health officials in Gaza. The war has wreaked vast destruction and brought a humanitarian disaster with several thousand Palestinians in northern Gaza facing imminent famine, according to the United Nations.

Another protester, Ahmed Ayash, said he completed both his masters and PhD at the University of Toronto.

"[Students] believe in supporting this cause. I think that they're willing to stay for as long as it takes until U of T really understands that the students are serious," he said.

Since the encampment was set up Thursday, more than 3,100 U of T alumni have signed a letter in support of the students.

Undergraduate student Baron Mackey says the school has divested after student outcry in the past. He pointed to the 2021 announcement that U of T would divest from fossil fuels.

"Hundreds of students and faculty have shown up," he said, adding the school is engaging in public messaging that is not painting an accurate picture of the encampment that has been peaceful. "We take things day-by-day, hour-by-hour."

School says it's concerned about 'use of language'​

By Saturday afternoon, a handful of counter-protesters appeared near the encampment.

The university has said it's concerned about what it claims as reports of threats and other illegal activity, but has so far not indicated it plans to remove the encampment.

"We have conveyed our expectations and shared our observations regarding actions that have contravened them, including lack of crowd control, health and safety risks, destruction of property, and use of language that is considered discriminatory, threatening or hateful," the university said in its latest statement to the U of T community on Friday.

"We have made it clear that these activities fall outside of our policies and relevant law and are considered unauthorized on our private property."

The encampment — one of several established at Canadian university campuses in recent days — went up early Thursday morning after students said they breached the fence around an area on the downtown campus known as King's College Circle.

• U of T raises concern about actions in Pro-Palestinian encampment
• U of T tells protestors they won't be removed — yet

On Thursday, the university said the tents, banners and flags were a safety concern and it had asked the students to leave by 10 p.m. However, it said it would not remove the students if their activities remained peaceful.

The next day, the university said the protest had evolved and it had received several questions and reports of "concerning language" being used in signs and chants.

Jewish support groups release statements​

Signs that could be seen on Saturday said "End the Genocide in Gaza" and "You Think an Encampment is More Offensive Than a Genocide?" Other signs included "Jews for a Free Palestine."

In response to the encampment, Hillel Ontario, an organization that describes itself as supporting Jewish campus life, said the protest is "entirely unacceptable."

"We are deeply disappointed by the lack of adequate response on the part of the university," said spokesperson Jay Solomon. He said the protestors are also creating a "hostile environment" and said they are chanting "hateful slogans."

The Network of Engaged Canadian Academics, an organization of Jewish academics, said faculty members are being "blacklisted" for their political views and said they are being targeted.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/encampment-uoft-pro-palestinian-protesters-1.7194321

 

[Gori the Grey]

When I'm in NYC in a few weeks I'm going to visit Columbia university & see for myself, sounds pretty nuts

Might subside a good deal during summer, though. It's what administrators are probably most hoping for.

 

[Birdjaguar]

If you lived through the anti war protests of the 60s, this is all pretty ho hum stuff.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Yes, well that is because the USA is not itself at war
and they are not being conscripted, or at least not yet.

 

[amadeus]

So, a few questions:

• demonstrating students who skip out on classes and failed to submit papers/go to their exams, what should happen to them?

• demonstrating students who got arrested after breaking into that building at Columbia, what to do with them?

• demonstrating students who got arrested without breaking [and] entering but setting up encampments against school policy, how about them?

I think the latter of the three that I listed as the least serious, it’s just trespassing and maybe littering. I don’t know if that’s something that needs to be handled by any college itself.

edit: typo [in brackets]

 

[Snowygerry]

Here it goes like this,

demonstrating is no reason to not submit papers in time, skipping classes is not normally a problem, more a choice,

being arrested is somewhat self explanatory, if you are arrested, you follow the normal legal procedure, but the chances of being arrested are small, since the university will not file a complaint against the occupation (of a single building), on the condition no permanent damage is done to university property, and no violence is enacted upon the not-demonstrating public.

 

[amadeus]

demonstrating is no reason to not submit papers in time, skipping classes is not normally a problem, more a choice,

That gets into an unrelated issue about which I have mixed feelings: grades being dictated in part by attendance. There is kind of the “this isn’t high school anymore” vibe that I’m sympathetic with, but there’s also good reason to be there especially if there is a discussion section. I don’t know how many professors do it, but from what I remember large lectures were not mandatory attendance, the Japanese language program was, and some smaller classes it varied from teacher to teacher.

 

[Snowygerry]

Students here seem well organized, they made a sort of camp, pitched tents etc. so if you leave for a few hours to attend a practicum, that should not be a major problem,

they are not on strike after all,

by now they also contacted the international press, that was not the case yesterday.

Ghent students occupy university building in climate and Gaza protest

More than 200 expected to join protest calling for climate action and to cut ties with Israeli institutions

www.theguardian.com

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Honestly, what I don't understand is why throughout recorded history when ever there has been a protest it's usually done by students.

Students are the most sheltered of all demographics out there. They are legal adults but they often don't actually have to worry about adult things like starving to death or paying all the bills yet. Sure, they can work and become independent while they study. But nobody is forcing them. They can study while living in their parents house or live on a campus or even get tuition to pay for all of that. So they are quite insulated from the actual troubles of the world unless they deliberately choose not to be.

And at the same time they are the demographic that has the most to loose from wasting their time on frivolous political nonsense rather than using the limited time they have in school to actually learn skills they will need to succeed in life. This is doubly true in third world countries like the united states where they have to all but give their firstborn child to pay off the tuition and still end up in lifelong loans.

So why is it that at this point in life where their motivation to seek change should be at its lowest and the motivation to actually immerse your self in the education you paid for should be the highest do they do the opposite?

I went to university, and I still don't get it. I made sure to squeeze every cent worth of education out that I could. And it paid off.

---

That gets into an unrelated issue about which I have mixed feelings: grades being dictated in part by attendance. There is kind of the “this isn’t high school anymore” vibe that I’m sympathetic with, but there’s also good reason to be there especially if there is a discussion section. I don’t know how many professors do it, but from what I remember large lectures were not mandatory attendance, the Japanese language program was, and some smaller classes it varied from teacher to teacher.

Honestly I think it's a good idea to force attendance. It prepares you for a lifetime in the workforce where your attendance will be mandatory no matter if the current job is done or you are stuck waiting for something or you just really don't want to be there because it's tuesday and it's raining and you are bored.

For example, in one of the jobs I did years ago bad organization meant that it was normal for me to spend weeks with nothing to do while I wait for another team to finish their part, than they would have to wait for my team. And I still had to spend time in the office literally doing nothing, I couldn't even surf the web. I can't imagine how all those people who skipped on every lecture that bored them even slightly would react to that. They would probably claw their eyes out in boredom or something.

But that's life. You need to learn to sit down, shut up and accept that most of the time the world is not going to work the way you want it to. And I feel being forced to attend classes in school and university is a good teaching experience for that.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Students are at that stage of their life where they're really idealistic and feel like they can change the world. They can't, of course, and most of them'll realise it and sober up once they're older. But it's OK, it's part of growing up.

I don't happen to share their optimistic enthusiasm, but I very much admire someone actually making standing up for what they believe in. I'll take hopeless romantics over jaded cynics any time, though I'm closer to the latter myself.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Students are the most sheltered of all demographics out there. They are legal adults but they often don't actually have to worry about adult things like starving to death or paying all the bills yet. Sure, they can work and become independent while they study. But nobody is forcing them. They can study while living in their parents house or live on a campus or even get tuition to pay for all of that. So they are quite insulated from the actual troubles of the world unless they deliberately choose not to be.

Which makes it all the more admirable that they care about unsheltered people despite living in a sheltered bubble.

And at the same time they are the demographic that has the most to loose from wasting their time on frivolous political nonsense rather than using the limited time they have in school to actually learn skills they will need to succeed in life. This is doubly true in third world countries like the united states where they have to all but give their firstborn child to pay off the tuition and still end up in lifelong loans

Which makes it all the more admirable that they're actually putting something on the line instead of empty virtue-signalling. If they weren't being personally affected by their actions, I suspect more than a few people here would be criticising them for the same reason.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Students are at that stage of their life where they're really idealistic and feel like they can change the world. They can't, of course, and most of them'll realise it and sober up once they're older. But it's OK, it's part of growing up.

I must have skipped that stage than.

I don't happen to share their optimistic enthusiasm, but I very much admire someone actually making standing up for what they believe in. I'll take hopeless romantics over jaded cynics any time, though I'm closer to the latter myself.

Why? This is a genuine question by the way. I am not trying to be snippy.

As far as I am concerned I always felt a certain degree of... well for lack of a better term (don't have a proper English word) loathing (a bit too strong a word, but again, English is lame) for what I saw as more or less deluded self righteous fools that have just the right combination of stupidity (well, really just a lack of life experience) to think things can be changed and hubris to think they can be the one to do it. I mean, there is fighting windmills and than there is genuinely, honest to god, believing you are going to protest your way into solving the worlds giant problem.

It's not even hatred though, loathing implies it, but rather just a sort of looking down on how they waste their time on pointless and impractical things as opposed to actually working to make their life better by exploiting the opportunity they have been given to get an education. The thing that comes to mind is an idiom from my native tongue that basically works out to "Someone who has newer been hungry so he has to find some other spoiled brat reason to lash out that just makes serious people groan when they look at the spoiled brat acting out". The poetic beauty is lost in translation unfortunately.

 

[Gorbles]

It's not even hatred though, loathing implies it, but rather just a sort of looking down on how they waste their time on pointless and impractical things as opposed to actually working to make their life better by exploiting the opportunity they have been given to get an education.

You not understanding the point of things you consider pointless is the problem here, not whatever students are doing. Your frustration seems to be rooted in "why aren't they doing things I think is the better choice", without stopping to examine why you think it's the better choice, nor accepting that this is merely your opinion and not necessarily, in fact, a better choice.

Also, your lack of understanding about student loans and paying for housing annoys me a bit. I had to get a job, because the maintenance loans I received didn't cover housing + bills (and I lived in some absolute dumps). It wasn't a choice. I was absolutely forced - in order to have a roof over my head. Maybe it's better in the US than in the UK, but somehow I doubt it ("equally bad", at best, I reckon).

 

[PPQ_Purple]

You not understanding the point of things you consider pointless is the problem here, not whatever students are doing. Your frustration seems to be rooted in "why aren't they doing things I think is the better choice", without stopping to examine why you think it's the better choice, nor accepting that this is merely your opinion and not necessarily, in fact, a better choice.

Unless I am missing something big here nobody ever changed the world by making a fuss on a campus. Or really, just student protests in general. I've seen my fair share of actual protests where the working class comes out on the streets and they usually don't accomplish much either. But at least in there you have the potential for a critical mass to form which will pose a somewhat credible threat of revolution or at least violence in general if you don't get your way to make someone in charge at least partially pretend they will listen.

But student protests always struck me as basically spoiled children voicing their disapproval of something followed by the authorities giving a bored sigh and ignoring them. Assuming of course they even realize there is a protest going on in the first place. Which in countries the size of america I can imagine literally not happening at all.

And getting your money worth out of the education you paid for is objectively the superior choice to wasting your time fighting a battle you can't win against an opponent who needs to look at the news to realize he is supposed to be in combat.

 

[Senethro]

Unless I am missing something big here nobody ever changed the world by making a fuss on a campus. Or really, just student protests in general. I've seen my fair share of actual protests where the working class comes out on the streets and they usually don't accomplish much either. But at least in there you have the potential for a critical mass to form which will pose a somewhat credible threat of revolution or at least violence in general if you don't get your way to make someone in charge at least partially pretend they will listen.

But student protests always struck me as basically spoiled children voicing their disapproval of something followed by the authorities giving a bored sigh and ignoring them. Assuming of course they even realize there is a protest going on in the first place. Which in countries the size of america I can imagine literally not happening at all.

And getting your money worth out of the education you paid for is objectively the superior choice to wasting your time fighting a battle you can't win against an opponent who needs to look at the news to realize he is supposed to be in combat.

When there exists an opponent you can't win against, you should anticipate when next they will engage with you. Does the realization that they exist and that they are not necessarily on your side not trigger any discomfort?

You're on a ranked list and I'm sure you feel extremely comfortable now with your objectively superior choices over the self righteous deluded fools at the moment, but I'm also sure you'll feel very aggrieved should your own turn come about.

So I guess you need to ask yourself how far up the list you are and if that event is probable within your lifetime.

 

[Gorbles]

Unless I am missing something big here nobody ever changed the world by making a fuss on a campus. Or really, just student protests in general. I've seen my fair share of actual protests where the working class comes out on the streets and they usually don't accomplish much either. But at least in there you have the potential for a critical mass to form which will pose a somewhat credible threat of revolution or at least violence in general if you don't get your way to make someone in charge at least partially pretend they will listen.

Depends what we mean by "changed the world", I guess. But I definitely support this freedom of expression regardless of the outcome. People showing that they care is a valid outcome in of itself. Being laser-focused on results in my experience lends itself to limiting the possible outcomes. Soft skills are just as useful as hard skills when it comes to maturing as a person.

Assuming of course they even realize there is a protest going on in the first place. Which in countries the size of america I can imagine literally not happening at all.

The news coverage would suggest the authorities are very much aware, or have you missed them arrested students and beating a professor up?