Canada Solar Power

[sysyphus]

Hydrogen technology is pretty cool stuff. Where is the industry at right now for that? The last I had heard is that it was great becuse it burned clean (nothing but water!) but putting in the effort to create hydrogen gas for the cells made for just as much waste and emissions (i.e. burning coal to make hydrogen). WHere is the research emphasis right now?

You're correct that the fuel cell emits only water and oxygen depleted air, adn you are correct that using hydrocarbons does creat egreenhouse gases. That method is one that is being used but there is a better way: electrolysis of water. Running an electric current through water causes it to separate into oxygen and hydrogen gas.

What this means is that hydrogen used in this way is not an energy source, but rather a method of energy storage. It's useful for replacing combustion engines and batteries, and also will make solar and wind more viable as it provides a solution to the problem that these sourcse are not always available.

Right now, my companies has produced several prototype applications including a minibus, forklifts and a delivery van, and are currently preparing a full sized bus to run in Winnipeg this summer. It is estimated that fuel ceels cars will be commercialised about 2015.

As for the price of solar cells: current solar technology (i.e. the silicon chip cell) is simply not economically feasable and will likely bever be. However, there are other solar technologies being developed, some of which seem very promising. One that particularly intrests me is one based on photosynthesis as used by plants.

 

[Urederra]

ummm... wrong thread.

 

[JohnRM]

Canada is expected to meet its Kyoto obligation by 2012, and we’re woefully unprepared. Moral suasion is not having any dent, and that’s the only effort we can see.

I was thinking that Canada should offer some type of prize (like the Ansari X-Prize) for a certain quality of solar cell. That way, we can develop the cells and then implement them in a rush before 2012, in a desperate attempt to lower our electricity usage on an individual level. But I don’t know what type of criteria the prize should be for, I don’t know what to ask for.

If you were designing a prize, in order to get the ‘best’ solar cell you could, what would you ask for? If you’re looking for cost-effectiveness, how would the challenge be phrased?

If you’re in Canada, then contributing your ideas will help your country. If you don’t, then contributing ideas means that we’re working on technologies that will eventually benefit everyone. Everyone wins.

Canada is not the best place for solar power.

 

[Xenocrates]

The best place for solar power would be above the clouds, i.e. solar modules should be attached to the brains of the right-wingers on this forum.

 

[Che Guava]

You're correct that the fuel cell emits only water and oxygen depleted air, adn you are correct that using hydrocarbons does creat egreenhouse gases. That method is one that is being used but there is a better way: electrolysis of water. Running an electric current through water causes it to separate into oxygen and hydrogen gas.

What this means is that hydrogen used in this way is not an energy source, but rather a method of energy storage. It's useful for replacing combustion engines and batteries, and also will make solar and wind more viable as it provides a solution to the problem that these sourcse are not always available.

Interesting. I guess my one qualm with the system might be that since it is only an energy storage medium, a significant amont of electricity has to be produced in order to split the water molecules. But I guess as long as that energy is produced through low-emmision methods, we're still 'in the green'

Right now, my companies has produced several prototype applications including a minibus, forklifts and a delivery van, and are currently preparing a full sized bus to run in Winnipeg this summer. It is estimated that fuel ceels cars will be commercialised about 2015.

Amazing! I am so glad that ther are companies like this in Canada! I have heard that Cuba has a whole fleet of hydrogen buses in Havana; if they can do it ...!

As for the price of solar cells: current solar technology (i.e. the silicon chip cell) is simply not economically feasable and will likely bever be. However, there are other solar technologies being developed, some of which seem very promising. One that particularly intrests me is one based on photosynthesis as used by plants.

This is where more research energy should be put, as well. Enzymology holds some truly amazing potentials, and has already been used so successfully in other fields. If I had the money and technology, my house would be running on photosynthetics cells......

 

[JohnRM]

The best place for solar power would be above the clouds, i.e. solar modules should be attached to the brains of the right-wingers on this forum.

I am a right-winger, because I am presenting the facts? Canada can put up solar panels until it is blue in the face, but the fact is that it is only going to work (and barely, at that) during the Winter months. Jeez, read a book.

 

[AdrianE]

taper

I got my 1uW number from assuming the bias voltage is 1V and the current generated is 1uA (reasonable assumptions for reasonable sizes and reasonable effeciency and reasonable incident sunlight). Remember "back of the envelope".

The reason Sunpower's A-300 gets 3.1W is its size is 125mmx125mm. That is gigantic compared to my assumed cell (about 1000 times bigger). Power generated scales with area . Unfortunately so does energy cost.

Basically that thing is a single 6 inch wafer devoted to a solar cell. That will be painfully expensive to manufacture. The energy cost of manufacturing that will be very high.

We must also consider manufacturing yield. Not every device built will work and at this size we can expect only 50% to work. We must amortize the energy costs of the failures over the ones that do work. Then add transportation, installation etc energy costs.

Overall I think if we include all relevant factors (which we are not going to get because its all proprietary info) we will be very lucky if we approach energy break even during the life of the cell.

Thus I think that electricty generated from solar power is an inefficient if not detrimental answer.

 

[El_Machinae]

However, there are other solar technologies being developed, some of which seem very promising. One that particularly intrests me is one based on photosynthesis as used by plants.

Isn't that exactly what ethanol fuels are?

 

[Xenocrates]

I am a right-winger, because I am presenting the facts? Canada can put up solar panels until it is blue in the face, but the fact is that it is only going to work (and barely, at that) during the Winter months. Jeez, read a book.

I wasn't talking about you. Besides which I already said that solar (PV) is not suitable for Canada, or indeed anywhere until technological advances are made, which may not be achievable through a prize.

Ceramics and organics maybe better, who knows?

 

[JohnRM]

Solar Tower

I think that this would work, even in Canada.

 

[El_Machinae]

John ... winter?

Why would it only work in the winter? That seems counterintuitive to me.

 

[sysyphus]

Well, we do actually get the sun in Canada sometimes but it's true that solar is not very viable here (but could be included among other thigns).

Wind and tidal are more applicable renewables for us.

 

[Xenocrates]

Solar towers are a good idea and they would work in Canada. I worry about Earthquakes though; they are ~1km tall! Am I a pessimistic sod or what?

I just noticed that there was no pic on the tower link:

http://www.enviromission.com.au/project/video/video.htm

This is a nice film.

 

[sysyphus]

Fortunately, most of Canada save for the west coast of BC has low seismic activity. I'd be interested to see a prototype of one of these things built here, the praries would be a good spot.

edit: Enjoyed the film, was very nice. A$900M is a pretty good price for 200MW of capacity, though upwards of 1000km^2 of land for that output is a bit hefty. Of course, not much of an issue in places like Canada and Australia.

 

[Alpine Trooper]

Hydro-electricity operators in Canada already buy excess power from those who have their own solar or wind power, powering their homes.

 

[taper]

taper

I got my 1uW number from assuming the bias voltage is 1V and the current generated is 1uA (reasonable assumptions for reasonable sizes and reasonable effeciency and reasonable incident sunlight). Remember "back of the envelope".

The reason Sunpower's A-300 gets 3.1W is its size is 125mmx125mm. That is gigantic compared to my assumed cell (about 1000 times bigger). Power generated scales with area . Unfortunately so does energy cost.

Basically that thing is a single 6 inch wafer devoted to a solar cell. That will be painfully expensive to manufacture. The energy cost of manufacturing that will be very high.

We must also consider manufacturing yield. Not every device built will work and at this size we can expect only 50% to work. We must amortize the energy costs of the failures over the ones that do work. Then add transportation, installation etc energy costs.

Overall I think if we include all relevant factors (which we are not going to get because its all proprietary info) we will be very lucky if we approach energy break even during the life of the cell.

Thus I think that electricty generated from solar power is an inefficient if not detrimental answer.

Have you done any research at all on modern solar cells? I'm currently working on my master's degree in electrical engineering, and was a member of my university's solar car team for several years. Almost all commercial cells are around 6 inches square. The cells allowed for the solar car race were limited to $10/watt, but the ones we used were closer to $3. That is total retail price, including yield, transportation, etc. The energy payback of solar cells is not a problem. Next time you do "back of the envelope" figures, make sure you start with the right data, and not numbers 3 million times too small.

 

[Che Guava]

Have you done any research at all on modern solar cells? I'm currently working on my master's degree in electrical engineering, and was a member of my university's solar car team for several years....

Interesting! DO you have any insights as to when solar power might actually be a viable source of power in a palce like Canada?

 

[AdrianE]

So taper what exactly is the energy cost of manufacturing a modern solar cell? Energy cost NOT $ cost. $ are irrelevant in deciding if solar cells are a good way to reduce *ENERGY* consumption from non renewable sources.

I beleive that once all factors are considered electrical production from solar cells is not an effective use of energy. However I would be very interested if you can prove that a modern solar cell actually turns an energy profit in its lifetime.