Canada

[Tharak]

that is interesting, I did not know that.. I was only familiar with the Americans who joined Canada to avoid it

Don't forget the US Civil War - thousands of Canadians went to the US to fight for the north, despite the fact is was illegal for them to do so. In fact, they just recently found out a guy who died in Ontario about 50 years ago was a civil war vet, so the US sent up a group to give him a (belated) military funeral, as is the right of any US vet - well done!

 

[Tharak]

As for the world stage let us remember that the U.N. was created by a canadian (Lester B. Pearson) who later commited suicide because of accusations of working for communism. Maybe one could have U.N. peacekeepers as a U.U. for Canada or alternately the Avro Arrow.

Errr - LBP did NOT commit suicide - he died of cancer in 1972 at the age of 75....

 

[MagnumPI]

Every nation with a rich history deserves to be in the Civilization series, but for Civilization IV I think they must also have a great leader as well. Who would be the great leader of Canada?

I have no idea, but perhaps someone can fit the bill?

pierre trudeau, william lyon mackenzie king, General Sir Arthur William Currie... there are lots of canadian leader possibilities but i don't think canada could be chosen for the short list of 20 civs or however many make it in... and i'm a proud canadian

 

[MagnumPI]

Oh sorry. Ever since we refused to take part in Iraq, many Americans have been claiming we've done nothing about terrorism, and that we're actually a haven for people wanting to enter the US for despicable reasons. It's become kind of an automatic reflex I guess.

Not to mention JTF2 is in the front line flushing out REAL terrorists in afganistan and risking their lives in the process. THAT is a commando unit the beat all commando units

 

[MagnumPI]

It's aboot time this thread popped up.

your canadian is coming along eh, ya hooser

 

[Sorceresss]

I personally think it [Canada] deserves to be in, but there are a lot of other civilizations (can I even call canada a civilization?) that deserve to be in the game more.

I was born in Canada and I still dwell in Canada...and I partially agree with you :

1. NO : Canada does not deserve to be in Civ IV, because it is too young (having only been around for about 140 to 400 years [depending on where you start counting] during the past 6000 years!) and too small (it has about the same level of population and economic wealth as the state of California).
2. To answer your question : NO, Canada is not a "civilization"! It is a multicultural confederation composed of 10 states (called "provinces").
3. YES : there are a lot of "cultures" that deserve to be in Civ IV much more than Canada. For example : a Scandinavian Civilization.

Please note that even though I live in the state of Quebec, I have no negative feelings towards confederal Canada : I do not wish that Quebec ever separates from it...but you will not convince me that Canada (and even less, Quebec) is a "civilization" !

 

[belamorte]

my suggestions for Canada leaders

Louis Riel
P E Trudeau
J A MacDonald (put a drink in his hand)

and most importanatly Wayne Gretzky who spreads Canada's special culture (hockey) everywhere while the special military unit, Dave Semenko beats all the other civs senseless. Also Canadians, when they discover steel can make skates, and travel along the glaciers at 3x normal movement speed

 

[R-A-N-M-A]

Yes it is true, Canada is the only country in the world that has been part of every single UN mission in history. And by the way, the blue helmet UN force were created by a Canadian. (Doesn't that count has something we have done for the world). We also had an important beach to raid during WW2...

I'm a canadian myself and I sure don't believe that Canada should be in CIV4. In my opinion, to have a civilization, you must have been there for more than 500 years...

First off Canada has been on 49 of 51 Un sanctioned peace keeping missions the most of any nation. So has Fiji, but Canada is bigger so people never hear about Fiji. Not just the Blue Helmet was created my a Canadian, peace keeping was invented by Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson to solve the Suez Canal crisis. A feat for which he urned the Nobel Peace Prize.

Our WWII service record is some what more distinguished than some important beach raid. Dieppe was some what of a dry run for D-Day lots of Canadians lost their lives. Speaking of D-Day ever hear of Juno Beach? It was the beach that pushed the hardest and farthest into occupied france. It pushed so far so fast that they had to stop them because they were moving faster than the supply line. Juno Beach was the beach hit by Canada and Canada alone. That only covers some of the monumental ground battles. Canada had the 3rd largest navy by the end of WWII it had swelled 50 times in order to protect merchant navy ships from U-Boats.

In its younger days Canada was a fightin' nation we were in WWII and WWI from the very begining facts you damned yanks seem to forget you only showed up late and stole the show. WWI was the fire that forged canada especially the astounding Victory at Vimy ridge where an entirely Canadian commanded and maned for crushed the germans. Let's not forget the war the US lost to Canada, the War of 1812 where Canadians a British burnt down the white house.

Your other criteria a civ should be around for 500 years, I suppose you must be excluding the "american civilization" cough cough. COncidering the first european founded city in north america was Port Royal founded in 1608 in what is now Nova Scocia, and Quebec City the second oldest City in north america and the oldest one still standing was founded the following year. So Canada as a nation is only 138, its roots go back 398 years and beyond, the first explorers didn't necessarily found cities.

Perhaps the Canada of today is a tame wimpy self important country, but the Canada of history wasn't always that way.

Some one also argued that Canada has had no one worthy of being a great leader, I can name 6 righ now:

1. Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson
2. Prime Minister Sir John A. MacDonald
3. Prime Minister Sir Wilfred Laurier
4. Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King
5. Prime Minister (Though I hate to admit it) Pierre Elliot Trudeau
6. Prime Minister Brian Mulroney (don't knock him)

Does Canada deserve to be in Civilizaion? Hell yes, it deserves it as much as any other, but it isn't up to me I'll leave who gets in and who stays out to Firaxis.

 

[SmartMuffin]

1. Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson
2. Prime Minister Sir John A. MacDonald
3. Prime Minister Sir Wilfred Laurier
4. Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King
5. Prime Minister (Though I hate to admit it) Pierre Elliot Trudeau
6. Prime Minister Brian Mulroney (don't knock him)

Eh, but how many non-Canadians have even heard of any of those people.

Honestly, those might be the most deserving Canadians (what do I know, I'm American...) but that doesn't put them on par with names like Napoleon, Julius Caesar, or even Ieayasu Tokugawa.

I don't consider myself the typical "ignorant American." I have a couple Canadian friends, I like to keep myself informed of world events, and I'm somewhat of a history buff (somewhat). But out of your list, the only name I even recognize is Trudeau.

... he's the guy who writes Doonesbury, right?

 

[R-A-N-M-A]

Truedeau died.



The only reason you haven't heard about them is because Canada doesn't control as much Media as the US does. Napoleaon was a megalomanicale failure, Tokugawa was a corrupt back stabber who had very little to do with international affairs no where near the stage of Pearson. Just because Cesar was more famous doesn't make him better. Ask yourself this, ever Hear of Mansa Musa, Huyana Capac, Asoka, Hatshepsut, Qin Shi Huang, and Cyrus before Civ 4?

 

[Devros]

COncidering the first european founded city in north america was Port Royal founded in 1608 in what is now Nova Scocia, and Quebec City the second oldest City in north america and the oldest one still standing was founded the following year. So Canada as a nation is only 138, its roots go back 398 years and beyond, the first explorers didn't necessarily found cities.

To be more precise Port-Royal was found in 1605 and Québec in 1608. The first european colony found in North America was the Sainte-Croix Island in 1604 (which is now in Maine) but it got abandonned the following year because half of the french settlers died during the harsh winter.

 

[SmartMuffin]

Truedeau died.



The only reason you haven't heard about them is because Canada doesn't control as much Media as the US does.

Then why have I heard of Montezuma, Queen Isabella, and Catherine the Great?

Furthermore, the reason nobody knows about them is irrelevant. The fact is that the vast majority doesn't. Civ doesn't necessarily choose a Civilization's "best" leader to represent said Civ in the game, they choose the most famous.

Canada doesn't have any famous leaders. Not to anybody who isn't Canadian at least.

 

[Ominous]

It really doesn't make any sense for Canada to be a Civ in this game. And I'm a Canadian.

Now, modding a Canadian Civ is tons of fun. I made a Canadian Civ in Civ III and it was a whole lot of fun. Mounties as the UU to replace cavalry, a long list of leader from Pearon to Mike Meyers to Bell, Canadian colours... the works. My roommates and I had a lot of fun with it (especially given we were studying political science and history at the time) and I'd recommend that if you want to see Canada in this game, go make it!

 

[R-A-N-M-A]

Truedeau died.



The only reason you haven't heard about them is because Canada doesn't control as much Media as the US does. Napoleaon was a megalomanicale failure, Tokugawa was a corrupt back stabber who had very little to do with international affairs no where near the stage of Pearson. Just because Cesar was more famous doesn't make him better. Ask yourself this, ever Hear of Mansa Musa, Huyana Capac, Asoka, Hatshepsut, Qin Shi Huang, and Cyrus before Civ 4?

I edited it a short while after. To be honest I don't care a whole tonne if Canada got in or not I am sure i'll find a good mod somewher and be pleased. The fact is Canada deserves more respect than it gets.

Then why have I heard of Montezuma, Queen Isabella, and Catherine the Great?

Furthermore, the reason nobody knows about them is irrelevant. The fact is that the vast majority doesn't. Civ doesn't necessarily choose a Civilization's "best" leader to represent said Civ in the game, they choose the most famous.

Canada doesn't have any famous leaders. Not to anybody who isn't Canadian at least.

Leaders need not be famous but to those whome the reign over. Roosevelt did nothing for Canada, nor did Washington or any of those leaders save Victoria and Louis XIV. The plan and simple truth is leaders are like Washington are only famous because you americans won't shut up about them. Fame is no baromiter of ability or worth.

 

[SmartMuffin]

Napoleaon was a megalomanicale failure, Tokugawa was a corrupt back stabber who had very little to do with international affairs no where near the stage of Pearson. Just because Cesar was more famous doesn't make him better. Ask yourself this, ever Hear of Mansa Musa, Huyana Capac, Asoka, Hatshepsut, Qin Shi Huang, and Cyrus before Civ 4?

a) As I said before, Civ does not choose leaders based on how "good" they actually were. They do it based on fame. Napoleon and Tokugawa and Caesar have name recognition. Your average stereotypical "ignorant American" teenager has heard of them, and has NO IDEA who Pearson is.

b) As far as the others, I am familiar with Hatshepsut, the Qin dynasty (although not so much the emporer himself) and Cyrus. But I will admit to being ignorant of Mansa, Capac and Asoka.

 

[belamorte]

6. Prime Minister Brian Mulroney (don't knock him)

You were doing good up until that

Go pick up a copy of Stevie Camerons book "On the Take" and take a look at the most corrupt political figure in recent Canadian memory. (including what is going on right now).

Or, Peter C. Newmans book about the braggart. Heck he would have to have 5 dvds programmed just to fit his ego in nevermind anything else.

 

[KingKHAN]

It'd be cool if they added Canada in Civ games. . . We could always have Jean Crétien and his liberals as 1 leader

 

[weasel77066]

Not another thread like this... (sigh)
I could tear this one up easy, but it would stir up too much emotion.
Well, canada doesnt fit well into the parameters of civ4 because you cant be both "mercantilism and environmentalism' at the same time.
Thats about it except for the lumber issue. How many millions (and millions) of board feet do you have stacked up just sitting there with no place to go? How many people in that industry are laid off right now???? You know what Im talking about.
Home sales are at an all time high right now in the US, and we arent getting the lumber from you.
Have fun... back to civ

 

[Devros]

Ignorance is everywhere, not just in America. My brother's ex-girlfriend couldn't tell where was Texas and California on the U.S. map. When I was in High school there were a lot of people in my geography course who didn't knew the locations of important countries like Germany. I remember one time the teacher asked a girl to identify a country in the north east hemisphere and she looked at the world map and said ''Siberia Flatlands''.

 

[Danger Bird]

On inventions, there's a CivIII small wonder invented by a Canadian:

Battlefield Medicine - Dr. Norman Bethune

(in the 1930s, as a volunteer in the wars in Spain and in China)

Is it in CivIV, don't know, haven't got to that era yet.


But no, I don't think that's enough for inclusion in the epic game. Canada is small (32m - maybe 4 or 5 pop:8 cities), recent (only the last 150 turns or so), and, most importantly, Canadians have never been great builders, colonisers, or conquerors, which is what civ is about.

Don Cherry's ok in small doses.