CASA - Space Ship Central

AutomatedTeller · Dec 8, 2008

donsig suggested we start a prebuild for Apollo and restart research.

I figured we should talk about this.

donsig · Dec 9, 2008

I second donsig's suggestion.

It may be too early to start. :dunno:

Yilar has been saying he thinks FREE is researching space flight and so we should hold off. I'm not sure they are researching it. If they have started it then they will get it before we do and we'll still end up witht he beaker discount, right?

My main concern is that if we cannot secure our own rubber and have to go begging to FREE for it we may or may not get it. Sure, FREE might want us to have rubber to continue to fight SABER, but if SABER never lands on our mainland then we won't need to fight them. Even if FREE does send us rubber for fighting SABER they (FREE) will want to pull the plug on the rubber if they think we are close to launching. So I think we're better off getting space flight and Apollo ASAP (assuming we have rubber) so we can get the casing started.

dl123654 · Dec 10, 2008

It depends on to much right now, how well the battle for new rubber goes and if FREE gives us some rubber. If FREE were smart they would give rubber until the turn we get space flight, because then the quickest we can start the part is the next turn (assuming we timed the Apollo correctly not to mention our demobilization with BABE or even FREE).

So if we are able to take some rubber and can hold it till 1 turn after Apollo then turn on research now.

If the battle does not go so well or we can't keep the island and FREE gives us rubber then do not do space flight but save up for max research and do robotics first.

If the battle does not go well and FREE does not come through with rubber then we have bigger problems.

Don't forget we only need rubber for one turn once we have Apollo, land take rubber for 1 turn start building the part, of course by then we will be the target of the world (wait we are already kind of there :lol:

)

Yilar · Dec 10, 2008

If we can't secure one of the many island rubbers with 80+ armors then we truely suck! As for building apollo i'm fine with that, the only problem with that is the fact that we have to get out of wartime. Also if we start building the casing the others are gonna know, you can see it if you have a spy (which I'm assuming they do).

General_W · Dec 10, 2008

We really ought to be able to get rubber one way or another.
Unless FREE rolls over here in the next turn or two and comes back for a real invasion [highly unlikely, imo]

So what we need now is a plan to go from Space Flight to Apollo, to SS Launch as FAST AS POSSIBLE.

From the moment we get spaceflight and build Apollo we'll go to the top of the enemy list like a rocket. We've got to have a solid plan to keep this time to an absolute minimum.

Any expert MMers want to take a crack at that? :help:

donsig · Dec 31, 2008

Here is a table of our current (turn 244) production:

Spoiler :

We must decide where we will build Apollo and the spaceship parts. The idea is to time the Apollo build to coincide with getting the last tech we need and spaceship parts the turn after that (about 35 and 36 turns from turn 244).

Anyone know if we can use the mobilization bonus and then convert to Apollo or a spaceship part?

The cheapest part is 160 shields (there are 4). To pre-build 160 shields in 35 turns we need 5 spt (or 4 spt with some in the bin already). If we use low production coastal cities (and can use the mobilization bonus) then we can use carriers or battleships as prebuilds for these 4 parts. The Dislodged, The Shallows, The Squeeze and The Nursery are prime candidates.

Then there are 4 parts that cost 320 shields. Under mobilization the best prebuilds we have are modern armor (120 shields) or battleships (200 shields) in coastal towns.

Two parts cost 640 shields. We'd have to use the UN and Manhattan as prebuilds for these tipping our hand a bit. Under mobilization it seems the best pre-build we can use before the wonders is modern armor at 120 shields (or battleships in coastal towns).

Apollo is 500 shields. Battlefield medicine would be the prebuild here.

Ok, so now I'm a bit stumped. If we want to launch the turn after building Apollo we need to get out of mobilization permanently some turns before we finish Apollo - so we can have access to prebuilds. That means we would lose the mobilization bonus affecting what I already calculated for the 160 shield prebuilds. I have a headache now.

dl123654 · Dec 31, 2008

No one can see if we built Apollo though unless they investigate the city that has it, so the timing of Apollo can be anytime after Space Flight.

So the timing of Apollo is better suited with whenever we get out of mobilization. After its built we can remobilize if we want to. This frees up one prebuild for a 640 shield build however the best we can do is 2 turns from there.

If nukes are available ICBM's become great prebuilds at 500 shields and can be built during mobilization however don't get the mobilization bonus. I don't think we can get a city to 141 shields though so it will still be 2 turns for the 640 shield builds if we want to hide the builds as long as possible. So that would be 1 turn wonder (or even space ship part for 2 turns).

If nukes are not available I can see us not remobilizing so that we can use manufacturing plants for most of the prebuilds, at 320 shields it covers most of the prebuilds.

Niklas · Dec 31, 2008

Building nukes are also great deterrents, should someone try to investigate our towns. :ack:

... but would also be targets for sabotage I'm sure.

General_W · Dec 31, 2008

We're just going to have to factor in sabotage.
Can we estimate how expensive it would be to sabotage an expensive pre-build?

Depending on the cost, I'd say at least 2 or 3 extra pre-builds will be necessary to ensure the spies don't ruin our plans.

peter grimes · Feb 6, 2009

Seems this is the best place to work through the pre-build discussion.

Paul#42 · Feb 6, 2009

peter grimes said:
Seems this is the best place to work through the pre-build discussion.

Now that's a start... :mischief:

dl123654 · Feb 6, 2009

peter grimes said:
Seems this is the best place to work through the pre-build discussion.

The first thing we must decide is when are we going to build Apollo.

I am of the opinion to build it right away, as soon as possible. We are not fooling anyone by not building it. Build it in the capital because we lose the space ship if we lose the capital anyway. Position most of the subs to protect the capital. Also its going to be hard enough to time the rest of the space ship parts, building it now frees up a city or 2.

This means we get out of mobilization earlier rather then later, but since we are building wealth in many of our cities anyway that doesn't matter. This gives us the Manufacturing Plant (320 shields) as a prebuild.

So we have Apollo in 6 turns after Space Flight. We have both techs in 9 turns after Space Flight.

Using donsig's production chart:

donsig said:

Here is a table of our current (turn 244) production:

Code:

City            mob spt  reg spt
The Gulag        122        87
The Chamber      122        90
The Treasury     120        88
The Silo          86        60
The Institute     80        60
The Admiralty     64        44
The Aerie         62        42
The Igloo         62        42
The Arboretum     58        38
The Meeting Room  36        24
The Bayou         33        20
The Pier          29        17
The Red Tape      28        19
The Phoenix       23        16
The New Yard      21        15
The Ways          16        12
The Marina        13         9
Chamsuri's Cove   13         8
The Nusery        12         8
The Squeeze        5         3
The Shallows       5         4
The Dislodged      4         3
The Beach          2         1
The Greenhouse     2         1
Caunagawaga        1         1
The Hideaway       1         1
Cattaraugus        1         1
The Bangles        1         1

For prebuilds we need 2 640 parts, 4 320 parts and 4 160 parts.

The Chamber will only have 3 turns of building so it can do a 320 part.
The Gulag (palace prebuild) and Treasury (Battlefield Medicine prebuild) can do 640 parts in 8 turns however we should employee a backup or 2. Therefore The Silo (UN prebuild) and The Institute (Manhattan Project prebuild) should also be planning for 640 parts, if nothing occurs then they go into the 320 parts, however we should plan on having some of our prebuilds destroyed. It will take these two cities 11 turns to get the production, so they need to start one turn before space flight.

Next 4 cities on the list are The Admiralty, The Aerie, The Igloo, The Arboretum, they will need about 9 turns to get 320 shields. Manufacturing Plant are perfect prebuilds for these

Finally we have The Meeting Room, The Bayou, The Pier, The Red Tape, The Phoenix, The New Yard, put them all on 7-10 turns for prebuilds.

Everything else stays on wealth.

If we see any signs of trouble then turn over some extra builds to modern armors and subs, however feel free to finish some parts depending on the situation, the cat will be out of the bag by then.

I think a plan like this gives us most flexibility because FREE and SABER will not just let us leave the planet without a fight. Its not perfect and I bet it can be improved upon but its a good start and sets some of the ideas (early demobilization, early Apollo, extra prebuilds) up for debate.

General_W · Feb 6, 2009

Thanks for getting this started dl :salute:

I'll spend more time digesting it later - but I really like it after just 2 reads. :thumbsup:

I agree that there's no sense in delaying Apollo till the bitter end... however, I think there is psychological value in delaying it at least until Saber and FREE seem committed to war with each other. If we build it before then, we might jolt some fence-sitters on those teams into demanding they join with the other team to destroy us first.

Hopefully we'll see a massive FREE-Saber war break out before we even get spaceflight - in which case your proposal for Apollo will be perfect. If FREE and Saber don't go to war... :dunno:

... then I'm not so sure.

donsig · Feb 7, 2009

Good start! We'll have to double check the production figures. Those from turn 244 were before we lost the ivory on ACI and some MMing has been done here and there to prevent riots and alleviate food shortages. We'll also have to take another look at our gold situation to see if we're still on track to have enough gold to keep research at max. Switching away from wealth will bring huge deficits back.

A few questions:

Why wait till six turns after space flight to build Apollo? We could time a pre-build to finish it one turn after Apollo, couldn't we?
If we do that, then should we also pre-build whatever SS parts we can build now? We'd get the mobilization shield bonus and could start the rubber dependent casing, but SABER and FREE would see our progress.
That leads to the question of whether we still want to build the spaceship all at once the turn after we get the last tech or build it piecemeal.
Once we've built Apollo should we mobilize again?

dl123654 · Feb 7, 2009

donsig said:
A few questions:

Why wait till six turns after space flight to build Apollo? We could time a pre-build to finish it one turn after Apollo, couldn't we?

If we do that, then should we also pre-build whatever SS parts we can build now? We'd get the mobilization shield bonus and could start the rubber dependent casing, but SABER and FREE would see our progress.

That leads to the question of whether we still want to build the spaceship all at once the turn after we get the last tech or build it piecemeal.

Once we've built Apollo should we mobilize again?

I like that idea better. If it takes 6 turns to build Apollo then we will need to start our prebuild in the capital in a few turns.
We do not have a good prebuild under mobilization unless someone builds Manhattan Project.
I would go with all at once however I don't think that will work, FREE and SABER have 1 turn of sabotage and I bet some our prebuilds will be destroyed. Exposing the spy will help but there is still a good chance they will hit again. General W also had a good point about if FREE and SABER are at war, however I'm sure once we have 1 part done we will become the target.
Again we do not have a good prebuild and if we do mobilize then we still don't get the mobilization shields for space parts or for anything up to 200 shields. I would rather not.

Yilar · Feb 7, 2009

Anyone know what the on cost of sabotage is?

dl123654 · Feb 7, 2009

Yilar said:
Anyone know what the on cost of sabotage is?

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/espionage_missions.php

dist * level + 10 * shield

Where level is 1-3 based on the size of the city (1 being <7, 2 being 6<x<13, 3 being >12)

Times that by 1.5 for careful and 2 for safe.

A safe sabotage FREE succeeds 68% and SABER 76%

Seeing that I feel better about how many parts they can destroy. With 600 shields already in the bin in a metro will cost them over 6000 gold, however they only have to stop a single city with 160 shields maybe costing 2000 gold with a 48% or 56% chance of success.

I feel much better about sabotage now. Maybe we can even cut back one or two backup cities from my plan.

donsig · Feb 24, 2009

I have updated production and research figures as of turn 255. A few points to keep in mind:

Spoiler :

Here is our current base beakers and gpt without wealth, taxmen or scientists:

Spoiler :

With 13 specialists we can add a mix of gold and beakers as needed. Tax men collect 2 gpt and scientists generate 3 bpt, correct?

Using these figures we get the following for quickest research and its cost:

Spoiler :

So, in order to research the remaining three techs in 14 turns the cost is 6196g. We have 2497g in our treasury so we need 3699g over 14 turns (or 265gpt) from wealth. We are currently pulling in 254gpt from wealth. The question is can we find another 11gpt in wealth and still prebuild our spaceship with the remaining (corrupt and wasteful) cities?

Here are current (turn 255) production figures:

Spoiler :

Niklas · Feb 24, 2009

I would rather "waste" one more turn of research, to make it 15, and ensure that we have all the prebuilds in place. If it's possible in 14 turns then we should of course go for that though.

donsig · Feb 24, 2009

We might have to waste more than one turn of research to do all the prebuilds. We really need a build plan so we can see how much wealth we can still generate and then plan our research (or non-research) accordingly. Any general thoughts on whether it's more efficient to try to prebuild Apollo and all ten parts to build at once at the end or to build in stages. I guess we should look at both scenarios.

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