Catholicism, Orthodoxy and the Apostolic Palace

[merijn_v1]

Because the simplest things are the hardest to think of.

 

[Leoreth]

Making St. Peter's Basilica the new Catholic shrine while keeping the Apostolic Palace wonder requires additional art for the former. Since it is usually built earlier, I would envision the shrine as Old St. Peter's Basilica, so that the Apostolic Palace would keep the art for the new Renaissance basilica. Speaking of that, maybe the AP tech requirement should be pushed back a bit.

Alternately, we could use the current Christian shrine art, which is generic enough to represent both shrines. Or come up with new art for the Church of the Holy Sepulchre instead.

Suggestions welcome.

 

[Tigranes]

Historically Old St. Peter was completed before AP. In the fifth century, Pope Symmachus built a papal palace close to the Old St. Peter's Basilica which served an alternative residence to the Lateran Palace. Let's not forget that mod also has the best-known of all the Palace's chapels -- Sistine Chapel -- as a separate wonder. One of the functions of the Sistine Chapel is to be a venue for the election of each successive pope in a conclave of the College of Cardinals.

Do we really need 3 Roman Vatican wonders in the mod with 72 wonders describing 5000 years of history of all the nations in the entire world?

Does the AP still trigger schism? I am not sure which mechanism will you eventually adopt. But all the buildings depend on that choice. Speaking of which I came up with a new idea.

1. Orthodoxy being founded with Theology or placed in Jerusalem.

2. Orthodox civ (Byzantium, Ethiopia or Rome) can build Hagia Sophia in some orthodox city. This triggers the schism with all the orthodox cities outside of civ with Hagia Sophia turning Catholic. Most important "outside" orthodox city (with F9 style importance taking into account size, culture and existing wonders) -- becomes holy catholic city.

3. Sistine Chapel is being excluded from the mod. It is being replaced with AP (which has Chapel as one of it's rooms). AP has all the regular effects, but Chapel's tech. Chapel's effects are given to ... Hagia Sophia! Chapel's art can represent AP, and AP's art can represent the largest Church in the world -- St. Peter's.

 

[phoenix_sprite]

1. Orthodoxy being founded with Theology or placed in Jerusalem.

I agree, the automatic date should be in 300 AD and/or automatically founded by Byzantium when they spawn.

2. Orthodox civ (Byzantium, Ethiopia or Rome) can build Hagia Sophia in some orthodox city. This triggers the schism with all the orthodox cities outside of civ with Hagia Sophia turning Catholic. Most important "outside" orthodox city (with F9 style importance taking into account size, culture and existing wonders) -- becomes holy catholic city.

I feel like my previous idea for the Hagia Sophia was better (giving it the AP's current bonus but being exclusive to its owner), but I feel like building the AP to trigger the founding of Catholicism like it currently does with Orthodoxy would be better. It would convert the building to Catholicism and historical areas/civ. The only flaw with this idea is that it relies on the AI building wonders to trigger religions, other wise, Catholicism should be auto founded before the euros spawn, probably in the largest Orthodox city west of the Adriatic, replacing all Orthodox cities in that area to Catholicism.

3. Sistine Chapel is being excluded from the mod. It is being replaced with AP (which has Chapel as one of it's rooms). AP has all the regular effects, but Chapel's tech. Chapel's effects are given to ... Hagia Sophia! Chapel's art can represent AP, and AP's art can represent the largest Church in the world -- St. Peter's.

I disagree with this 100%. Make it like Dome of the Rock, make it require the AP present to be built.

My only problem with the whole Orthodox>Catholicism and Catholicism>Orthodox is that the actual problem is very "gamey". I feel like a precursor religion simply called "Christianity" would be better, and to trigger the schism through the building of the AP or Hagia Sophia (preferably the later). There are obvious problems with this idea but it would solve a lot of the issues that I can see with the proposed solutions.

 

[Leoreth]

Okay, maybe I have expressed myself poorly. I am already pretty much settled on what I am about to do, I was only asking for help about the art.

As for the artificiality of Orthodoxy/Catholicism before the split, I am currently looking into displaying the name of the religion as "Christianity" before the split occurs, while using the art assets for Orthodoxy. But that's not as easy as I initially thought.

 

[Ani Taneen]

Okay, maybe I have expressed myself poorly. I am already pretty much settled on what I am about to do, I was only asking for help about the art.

As for the artificiality of Orthodoxy/Catholicism before the split, I am currently looking into displaying the name of the religion as "Christianity" before the split occurs, while using the art assets for Orthodoxy. But that's not as easy as I initially thought.

That's awesome!

Wouldn't it be easier to just script Christianity as a new religion? one that is immediately replaced? Or would the scripts be too much?

 

[Leoreth]

That would require a new religion, new buildings, missionaries and so on.

 

[Panopticon]

Do we really need 3 Roman Vatican wonders in the mod with 72 wonders describing 5000 years of history of all the nations in the entire world?

Good point, Castel Sant'Angelo should be added also.

 

[Ani Taneen]

That would require a new religion, new buildings, missionaries and so on.

I'll be honest with you, that sounds a bit fun. Though four Christian Missionaries is a bit much.

But yea, here is what I imagine
UHV:
Church of the East: Spread Christianity into Persia and China
Christianized Sites: Control 8 Classical Wonders
Christian Rome: Make Christianity present in every city in the Mediterranean and western Europe before 600 AD.

Symbol: ichthys

Temple: Christianized Temple (shares the same graphic as pagan temple, icon is the same, but with an ichthys in the corner)
Cathedral: Basilica

and again, maybe the following wonder:

"Santa Maria Rotonda" Req. Theology & Construction, Req. Christianity.
Classical Wonders can be built with Organized Religion or Polytheism.
Obsolete with Code of Law.
+50% with Marble

 

[Leoreth]

Actually I've been thinking about the Catholic Shrine situation a bit more. It's probably best to merge it with the Apostolic Palace wonder, so that the shrine is called St. Peter's Basilica, uses the Apostolic Palace art and in addition to the usual shrine effects, also enables AP elections.

The extra hammers are of course still right out, and I still like the idea of moving that effect to the returning Hagia Sophia wonder, limited to the civ that owns it.

In other news, my current implementation of the Schism looks like this:
- Catholicism founded when half or more of all Orthodox cities are not controlled by a civ with Orthodox state religion (usually: Rome collapses)
- the game determines an "Orthodox capital" and a "Catholic capital"
- the Orthodox capital is the capital of a civ with Orthodox state religion with the highest overall culture (usually: Constantinople)
- the Catholic capital is the city with the highest culture that has Orthodoxy present and is in a civilization with no state religion (includes independents and barbarians, usually: Rome)
- the Catholic capital becomes the new Catholic holy city
- all cities in civs with Orthodox state religion remain Orthodox
- all cities in civs with no state religion become Catholic
- Orthodoxy in cities of civs with no state religion removed unless their closest city is within a civ with Orthodox state religion
- all cities in civs with any other state religion replace Orthodoxy with Catholicism if the the Catholic capital is closer than the Orthodox capital

This should recreate a historical outcome if things play out as they did historically. The independent or barbarian cities of the collapsed Western Roman Empire would become Catholic, one of them taking the place of its holy city, likely Rome. Existing Orthodox civs (Byzantium, Ethiopia, Greece if still alive) would be unaffected. Orthodoxy in other civs (e.g. Persia) would also be unaffected, but the possibility for those to become Catholic also exists if things play out differently.

Note that the "Orthodox capital" is only a term for this schism procedure, and does not mean that the Orthodox holy city relocates (it only determines which cities convert). The Orthodox holy city will remain in Jerusalem.

There will not be a schism event anymore, all previously Christian civs will remain Orthodox by default. Catholic civs will only begin to establish themselves by spawning in regions where Catholicism has spread or converted in previously independent cities.

 

[Tigranes]

I really like this implementation. Just one question: What would be the practical meaning of Orthodox capital?

 

[Leoreth]

It doesn't really have any meaning in the game, it's just a one time thing the schism code determines. It's only used so that cities in civs with proper non-Christian state religion can decide if they will be Catholic or Orthodox (by determining which "capital" is closer). Nothing special happens to the city itself.

Since the schism is mostly politically motivated, it imo makes more sense to use the capital of an Orthodox civ for this, instead of the Orthodox holy city itself. As I said above, if it plays out as intended and those cities turn out to be Rome and Constantinople, there is little practical difference between Jerusalem and Constantinople. So this is more relevant for an alt-hist scenario where the Catholic holy city ends up somewhere else, e.g. in the Middle East or Carthage.

 

[Tigranes]

Yes, this is a very good solution indeed. Can't wait to test this theory in practice. And again -- calling Christianity Orthodoxy from the very beginning does not confuse anyone with the most rudimentary knowledge about the Diversity in early Christianity . The amount of different currents from Sects in Judaism to Gnostic Gospels to Arian Emperors makes the survival of Orthodoxy a no small feat. Besides if people been fine with current name "Catholicism" founded by Theology, no confusing re-branding of the existent religion is actually necessary.


Thus says wikipedia:

Orthodoxy is opposed to heterodoxy ("other teaching") or heresy... The earliest (first) recorded use of the term "orthodox" is in the Codex Iustinianus of 529-534, but "heterodoxy" was in use from the beginning of the first century of Christianity.

Following the 1054 Great Schism, both the Western and Eastern Churches continued to consider themselves uniquely orthodox and catholic. Over time the Western Church gradually identified with the "Catholic" label and people of Western Europe gradually associated the "Orthodox" label with the Eastern Church (in some languages the "Catholic" label is not necessarily identified with the Western Church). This was in note of the fact that both Catholic and Orthodox were in use as ecclesiastical adjectives as early as the 2nd and 4th centuries respectively.

 

[DarkLunaPhantom]

I didn't check the code, but does the reformation code only trigger when Catholic civs acquire Printing Press or even when a civ with Printing Press becomes Catholic. Weird things can potentially happen if Catholicism is founded very late.

 

[FinalLegendZero]

Ignore, misread above post

 

[phoenix_sprite]

Okay, maybe I have expressed myself poorly. I am already pretty much settled on what I am about to do, I was only asking for help about the art.

As for the artificiality of Orthodoxy/Catholicism before the split, I am currently looking into displaying the name of the religion as "Christianity" before the split occurs, while using the art assets for Orthodoxy. But that's not as easy as I initially thought.

Sorry, I've been thinking about this all day today, and I've read your previous post, but I'd like to share my idea for this.

Make the Church of the Holy Sepulchre the religious shrine for the Orthodox holy city. Rename it to Church of the Anastasis if you must make it more Orthodox-y.

Make the AP the religious shrine for Catholicism; make it require Orthodoxy (or Christianity, whichever way you think of going) to be built. The city that it gets built in converts to Catholicism and becomes the holy city. Having the AP generate instead of better represents the Papacy's wealth, while keeping the AP's voting aspect as well. And yes, make a holy shrine not require a Great Prophet. I think that the construction of the AP should mark the schism of Christianity, but I think your idea on the split is good.

Make the Sistine Chapel require the AP to be built, like how the Dome of the Rock requires the Temple of Solomon to be built. This will convey a more 'Vatican' feel to the city.

Make the Hagia Sophia require Orthodoxy (or simply your version of the predecessor to Orthodoxy and Catholicism). Give it the AP's old bonus of adding to state religion buildings, but make it exclusive to the wonder's owner. Obsoletes with either Nationalism, Constitution or Scientific Theory?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

- the Orthodox capital is the capital of a civ with Orthodox state religion with the highest overall culture (usually: Constantinople)

You sure about that? Depending on how early Rome collapses I think the Orthodox capital is more likely to be in Ethiopia.

Also will Bzyantium remain a conditional civ or be turned into a regular?

 

[Publicola]

Speaking of Ethiopia, how will these religion changes affect the various Christian UHV's? I don't have a list in front of me, but I'm pretty sure some of them will need to be changed (Ethiopia will only be required to found Orthodoxy, for instance).

 

[Leoreth]

I didn't check the code, but does the reformation code only trigger when Catholic civs acquire Printing Press or even when a civ with Printing Press becomes Catholic. Weird things can potentially happen if Catholicism is founded very late.

I think the current mechanism will either apply very early or not at all. Not sure what happens with Protestantism if Catholicism is never founded, but it probably also should not exist in that scenario. The alternative is to force Catholicism before that can happen.

Make the Church of the Holy Sepulchre the religious shrine for the Orthodox holy city. Rename it to Church of the Anastasis if you must make it more Orthodox-y.

I've thought about that too ...

Make the Sistine Chapel require the AP to be built, like how the Dome of the Rock requires the Temple of Solomon to be built. This will convey a more 'Vatican' feel to the city.

I don't know, the Sistine Chapel as a generic representative of Renaissance religious art might have been built elsewhere.

You sure about that? Depending on how early Rome collapses I think the Orthodox capital is more likely to be in Ethiopia.

Because there is no Orthodoxy in Rome or because Aksum has more culture?

Also will Bzyantium remain a conditional civ or be turned into a regular?

Good point, I haven't considered what happens if Byzantium never spawns.

Speaking of Ethiopia, how will these religion changes affect the various Christian UHV's? I don't have a list in front of me, but I'm pretty sure some of them will need to be changed (Ethiopia will only be required to found Orthodoxy, for instance).

Yes, the Ethiopian goal will change to Orthodoxy. This way it also makes a lot more sense.

I am also considering giving Rome a goal related to Christianity, in that case it will obviously be Orthodoxy as well.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Because there is no Orthodoxy in Rome or because Aksum has more culture?

Becausd Aksum will likely have more culture than Constantinople.