Caveman 2 Cosmos

IAdditionally, its more accute in C2C than in Vanilla due to so much 'gold' manipulation being in place over 'commerce' manipulation. Original CivIV didn't make the distinction except through the slider itself. Maybe we should never have taken this step.

The main problem with (pretty much) no commerce is that the sliders become worthless, other than telling you the "income" of the various types. If you struggle with gold (mostly before Classical), you must go down on the sliders so much that you get extreme tax unhappiness (in addition to losing a lot of :science:) and you are out of the running for good.

That might also account for the weak AI nations.
 
Why is this subject being brought up again? Seriously! Do Not make this Mod like AND or many others where having Gold in your treasury is a Big Sin!

It is a big sin because if there is an abundance of gold than you can just remove it altogether.
Image Civ with 1000 :hammers: per city from the beginning on, it would also be boring. Managing gold is a huge factor in civ and if this gets completely taken out, it is like "cutting off the legs" of the game as you said.

Nobody wants to tune down gold THAT much, but right now it is too much. There will be a level where you can have "just enough" gold for a fun game play.
 
In my game I just built a magic shop (I think) and it gave 20 :gold: because o0f all the bonuses. For such a cheap building that seems extreme. Maybe it was a Hat Shop
 
As for cottages... they're already struggling to be anywhere near as beneficial as farms and mines still. Downgrading them in any way will just make them completely useless. This is likely WHY they've been tweaked the way they have, to match with the value inflation on other improvements.

I only build farms on bonuses, almost never anywhere else. The population of my cities grow way to fast otherwise. I have started using my Population Limit mod to keep the population of cities more inline with historic accuracy. (It is sort of like Civ III and earlier where you need city infrastructure for the population to grow above certain sizes.)

Cottages Are weak and the measly 2 gold they start with is nothing in the long run.

JosEPh :(

Cottages are supposed to be weak. It is because they upgrade to Suburbs which are not weak. Also if you have the Financial trait each one gets +1:commerce:.

Before you could only build Cottages ever!. They needed to be worked to upgrade. 1000001(sp?) thought it would be interesting to let you build the upgrade buildings so that when you can get Hamlets you can build Hamlets but the old Cottages would still need 44 turns of working to upgrade to Hamlets unless you build over them. It was done without discussion as part of the review of improvements. (BTW there are 5 prehistoric improvements of his that we have not implemented, mostly because they interfere with wonders or Cultures. I need to get back and look at them sometime.)

I just think you should not be able to build them so soon.
 
I think there is solution for this. Some modders wants all these buildings to exist becuase they like C2C to be complicated and detailed. I understood this. But these are problematic in case of rules of CiV4 (by adding tons of gold).

Im talking building like hat shop, furniture workshop, magic shop etc.
Ok lets think about this: maybe these building should be bringing not :gold: to your city but something different. Lets call it "Luxury". Which is responsbible for (example) happiness in your city.

And as for :gold: production lets just leave some true commerce buildings like market, harbor, bank etc.
 
@DH,
I have no problem with your proposal for Cottages. Your quote of part of what I said I meant to be in context with the overall "itching" to whack :gold: and :commerce: again.

@Faustmouse,
You completely ignored what I said about the AI and how it relates to you wanting to "tune down the :gold:". I seriously don't think you've thought this thru from the AI's point of view. So I'll say it again, the AI must have a good gold flow to be even a passable challenge to the player. When the AI causes you to drop a level or 2 of difficulty, Then we can discuss and refine/reduce what produces gold. But even then only to the point that it does Not curtail the AI.

And finally about these upcoming Unit upgrade costs and maint. cost, it May reduce the number of units in the game. But the player will just kill off the older units for the measly gold they get and build the Newer Stronger units instead. The AI doesn't do this very well, if at all. If this upcoming Unit overhaul actually works and it can be proven the AI is swimming in gold afterwards, then by all means "tune down the gold". But hopefully we won't be hearing that old tired chant we get all the time, "the AI suxs in this Mod".

JosEPh
 
I think there is solution for this. Some modders wants all these buildings to exist becuase they like C2C to be complicated and detailed. I understood this. But these are problematic in case of rules of CiV4 (by adding tons of gold).

Im talking building like hat shop, furniture workshop, magic shop etc.
Ok lets think about this: maybe these building should be bringing not :gold: to your city but something different. Lets call it "Luxury". Which is responsbible for (example) happiness in your city.

And as for :gold: production lets just leave some true commerce buildings like market, harbor, bank etc.

The reason many of these buildings have :gold: is so that the AI will build them because the AI was not good enough way back when they were designed to make the buildings work differently.

I am currently looking at adjusting the housing so that things like hat shop is needed for elite classic era housing, middle class industrial era and poor housing in the later eras. This means that the hat shop probably does not need to give anything except a bit of culture to be built by the AI. I need to get the housing stuff showing better on the city screen first.

The idea is that without hats you elite housing is stuck in the ancient era while your poor and middle class housing may be upgraded. I also want hats to be more important in polar and tropical regions plus desert regions for example.

This allows us to simulate the idea that luxury items in one era are necessities in another without having cities have excessive +:)

@DH,
I have no problem with your proposal for Cottages. Your quote of part of what I said I meant to be in context with the overall "itching" to whack :gold: and :commerce: again.

JosEPh

OK, sorry, still haven't had my coffee this morning:D
 
I think there is solution for this. Some modders wants all these buildings to exist becuase they like C2C to be complicated and detailed. I understood this. But these are problematic in case of rules of CiV4 (by adding tons of gold).

Im talking building like hat shop, furniture workshop, magic shop etc.
Ok lets think about this: maybe these building should be bringing not :gold: to your city but something different. Lets call it "Luxury". Which is responsbible for (example) happiness in your city.

And as for :gold: production lets just leave some true commerce buildings like market, harbor, bank etc.
If we could make maintaining city happiness a bit more challenging to counterbalance it, hats, for example, could be made a luxury resource. With a more volumetric resource system this would be ideal.

But that wouldn't completely eliminate gold from the building either. The gold represents the taxation earned from the business. In many cases, the gold derived from a building is far too high at the moment.

I'm beginning to see the light on a purpose for some of Faustmouse's requested yield and commerce per pop tags. So long as they can be decimalized, which I've insisted on when considering the design, it would make sense for a building like a hat maker to produce something like .1 gold per population. There are higher sales in a larger city and while there may be multiple hat makers, the differentiation between such small scale businesses in competition has never been modeled in civ and would probably not be best not to be.

Without taking it to a resource and if we wanted to keep the effect localized, then hat makers, for example, could produce .1 happiness per population as well. Each pop brings with it a certain amount of unhappiness as it is, so this would help to compensate.

However, perhaps to help counterbalance that, as techs progress, unhappiness per population should increase because people who know something probably SHOULD be available but currently isn't get more upset than those who don't know what they'd be missing. This would mean that supply buildings like these will be necessary to counter this growing capacity for malcontent.

And finally about these upcoming Unit upgrade costs and maint. cost, it May reduce the number of units in the game. But the player will just kill off the older units for the measly gold they get and build the Newer Stronger units instead. The AI doesn't do this very well, if at all. If this upcoming Unit overhaul actually works and it can be proven the AI is swimming in gold afterwards, then by all means "tune down the gold". But hopefully we won't be hearing that old tired chant we get all the time, "the AI suxs in this Mod".
A step to take soon thereafter should thus be 'ongoing training' which enables units in cities to gain very gradual amounts of XP. I've rethought how to best go about this I believe, but regardless, once manifested into the game it should give quite a bit of motive to hold onto and upgrade units rather than having to build fresh green ones.


@DH: I most certainly don't try to limit growth in cities. It's one of the things I actually prioritize. This is because I prioritize production over nearly everything. Therefore, if a plot can't give production then I will almost always take it for as much food as it can provide so that I can get as many specialists as I can to provide the production those plots wouldn't.

Commerce seems to just fall into place so long as you can build your buildings as quickly as possible and set otherwise unused cities to building research or whatever is most needed there.

Thus again, production from plots become more valuable than commerce because at your option, production can BE commerce... depending on when in the game perhaps not at the optimal conversion rate, but effective nevertheless.

So if you undermine the plot values of cottages, they truly become useless, particularly since they are the best targets for raiders as said raiders can collect multiple gold drops from razing the plot many times before having to move on.

On Vanilla, any of straight CivIV, Warlords and BtS, the AI had a strong love of village improvements. This was one of their biggest and most vulnerable flaws in their AI.
 
I'm beginning to see the light on a purpose for some of Faustmouse's requested yield and commerce per pop tags. So long as they can be decimalized, which I've insisted on when considering the design, it would make sense for a building like a hat maker to produce something like .1 gold per population. There are higher sales in a larger city and while there may be multiple hat makers, the differentiation between such small scale businesses in competition has never been modeled in civ and would probably not be best not to be.

Without taking it to a resource and if we wanted to keep the effect localized, then hat makers, for example, could produce .1 happiness per population as well. Each pop brings with it a certain amount of unhappiness as it is, so this would help to compensate.

However, perhaps to help counterbalance that, as techs progress, unhappiness per population should increase because people who know something probably SHOULD be available but currently isn't get more upset than those who don't know what they'd be missing. This would mean that supply buildings like these will be necessary to counter this growing capacity for malcontent.



.

This sounds great
 
T-brd wrote: A step to take soon thereafter should thus be 'ongoing training' which enables units in cities to gain very gradual amounts of XP. I've rethought how to best go about this I believe, but regardless, once manifested into the game it should give quite a bit of motive to hold onto and upgrade units rather than having to build fresh green ones.

Going to pessimistic over this one and say "I'll believe it when I see it work."

I'm beginning to see the light on a purpose for some of Faustmouse's requested yield and commerce per pop tags. So long as they can be decimalized, which I've insisted on when considering the design, it would make sense for a building like a hat maker to produce something like .1 gold per population. There are higher sales in a larger city and while there may be multiple hat makers, the differentiation between such small scale businesses in competition has never been modeled in civ and would probably not be best not to be.

Without taking it to a resource and if we wanted to keep the effect localized, then hat makers, for example, could produce .1 happiness per population as well. Each pop brings with it a certain amount of unhappiness as it is, so this would help to compensate.

However, perhaps to help counterbalance that, as techs progress, unhappiness per population should increase because people who know something probably SHOULD be available but currently isn't get more upset than those who don't know what they'd be missing. This would mean that supply buildings like these will be necessary to counter this growing capacity for malcontent.

I had a big response but decided to delete it. It does not sound great.

JosEPh
 
I had a big response but decided to delete it. It does not sound great.
I'm curious what you see as a flaw in the proposal. Not that I'm considering this a high priority issue as it is but even if we disagree your perspective is always worthy of consideration.
 
9039 is last version of SVN. One of TB commits must be upload again (he is aware about this).

Yeah. I thought it had already gone through when I went to bed last night but apparently it got booted at the last second. It's good now though.
 
I looked all over for a response. Nothing seems to directly answer it though.

I'm playing a long game with c2c. It's great btw. However, it's already 6500 kb and am in the middle of the rennianse era. My client does crash if I alt tab out too much. But the turns are still short because of the extra option to minimize ai turns. Game seems far more stable than other big mods.

What is the most this game can take? I'd hate to be wasting my time if it crashes constantly at 8k kb or something.
 
I looked all over for a response. Nothing seems to directly answer it though.

I'm playing a long game with c2c. It's great btw. However, it's already 6500 kb and am in the middle of the rennianse era. My client does crash if I alt tab out too much. But the turns are still short because of the extra option to minimize ai turns. Game seems far more stable than other big mods.

What is the most this game can take? I'd hate to be wasting my time if it crashes constantly at 8k kb or something.

The savegame is a poor measuring stick for how much it can take. The more game data is saved the more the savegame will be but that doesn't equate, necessarily, to the amount of memory it's using.

It depends on how large a game you've generated. Map size, number of civs. It's been improved lately how far you can get and at the moment I'm thinking most games are going to have more 'balance' problems in modern and beyond than anything else... not game crushing but be aware that pre-industrial has had most of the design focus so far and there's still a lot taking place there to prepare us to move forward into further balancing. A building restructuring process appears to finally be getting underway and I've been working on units extensively.

If you continue to update with us and play repeatedly, you'll see massive amounts of growth with every version I assure you. But I think most of us have come to the conclusion that the game is awesome if taken to be a 'let's go as far as we can go and still find it enjoyable' and every time it should be a little further than the last.

I did see a recent game get into the transhuman and seemed to be stable despite it being a truly massive map so you've probably got a long ways yet to enjoy things. Make sure to help us out by reporting if you run up against a serious problem though. We'll often respond pretty quickly to do all we can about it.
 
Very cool. Thanks!
 
Is there a way to tell if you can arrest criminals anywhere besides visisting all cities and selecting a Law enforcment unit there?
 
Is there a way to tell if you can arrest criminals anywhere besides visisting all cities and selecting a Law enforcment unit there?

I don't suppose there is... any suggestions as to what can be done about that?
 
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