CBob04 Achtung Panzer!

[ThinkTank]

Wow, that is a lot of food! Too bad we will only build 12 cities.

In some solo games I played lately I've observed (I think) that such food rich starts frequently occur on islands. Let's hope that is not the case.

Wheat (2) on grass (2) has base food 4, 3 minus the despotism penalty, but irrigation will add 1, so it will be 4 again (5 once we're out of despotism). The penalty is: subtract 1 for anything (f/s/g) that has a higher value than 2. But this rule is applied only once. For example, grass has base 2 food so it is also 2 under despotism. Now irrigation will make it 3, and then the rule will be triggered taking away the food you just gained by irrigation and setting the result back to 2.

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . . Did not have WorkerA irrigate for one reason: the despotism penalty. Does it apply here? I'm so used to mining green and watering brown that I've forgotten how that works. . . . .

. . . . The penalty is: subtract 1 for anything (f/s/g) that has a higher value than 2. But this rule is applied only once. . . . .

lurker's comment: In addition to ThinkTank's explanation, here's my two cents, for what it's worth: If you're in despo and not sure if the penalty applies, right-click the tile and check the food (or gold or shield) value. If the value is 0 or 1, the penalty has not been applied. If the value is 2, the penalty may have been applied and further investigation into terrain and bonus values is warranted. If the value is 3 or higher, the penalty has already been applied. Because the despo penalty is -1 and applied only once, a tile can hit a value of 2 either with or without the penalty. It can have a value of 3 or higher only if the penalty has already been applied.

 

[Tad Empire_0_o]

Well I think the penelty always happens but I think if you irrigate Special Bonuses, (Wheat, Cows, Game, Wines ect.) you should get 3 foods but when you switch govts it will be atleast 4 foods

 

[TheOverseer714]

We can get our 12 cities built faster and developed faster with all that food. I think we could have a powerful empire very fast. I think we're going to want a slightly looser city spacing, maybe cxxxc to maximize our territory. And build some culture, of the knowledge type. Libraries and Universities are cheaper for a scientific civ anyway. If you can win with 5 cities, 12 will be even better. Are we going to stay Republic even when we go modern warfare? That will require a NOW strategy to avoid massive WW. I'm ready to get started, as this is going to be a long game.

 

[Tad Empire_0_o]

Yes I agree with Overseer we should also start soon

 

[CommandoBob]

Known:
Build order for Berlin looks like warrior (to explore), warrior (MP) and settler.

WorkerA will irrigate the wheat, road it, then move to the Wines, road it and mine it. May then road to whereever our second city will be located.

Unknown:
We still haven't decided on which tech to research. Alphabet and Pottery have been mentioned, and so has Min and Max research. I tend to favor Max research since having a lot of gold makes us a target for bullying by the AI. However, Min research means we stockpile gold so we can possibly buy a tech at some point.

Of the two techs, I lean more towards Alphabet, since it is on the direct path to Republic. Now for me, changing to Republic is reflex, and that may not be the best fit in our situation. I don't have a problem being a Republic until we get ready to rumble but we do have another option in the Ancient Age, namely Monarchy.

Tech Prices 3950 BC:
060 - Ceremonial Burial
060 - Pottery
084 - Bronze Working (known)
084 - Warrior Code (known)
120 - Masonry
120 - The Wheel
150 - Alphabet
180 - Iron Working

The path to Republic is Alphabet -> Writing -> (Code of Laws & Philosophy) -> Republic; five techs.

The path to Monarchy is Ceremonial Burial -> Mysticism -> Polytheism + Warrior Code -> Monarchy; five techs and we know one of them.

While we can discuss our preferred form of government later, I think that Iron Working might be better for trading than Pottery or Alphabet. It is the only second tier tech we can research. It is possible that we might get a tech from a goody hut, but I don't want to plan on it. We should be able to trade quite well with Iron Working.

If we do decide to research Iron Working, that does delay our discussion on government choice. And we gamble that we can trade IW for needed techs that lead to our government.

If we do discuss our government now, and reach a decision, then I would prefer to first research to our preferred government, learn it, change to it, and then learn everything else.

Although we could decide on our government and plan to learn Iron Working first for trading advantages later. That works for me, too.

 

[ThinkTank]

The only resaon to favor monarchy over republic is a lot of war. We are not going to have that until very late in the game. Morover, a strong economy in monarchy requires tax farms, which is impossible given our 12 city limit. So republic is really the only option I think.

So I think the repuclic slingshot; question is do we want to risk that and do pottery first? When we use a river wine we can have pottery in 12 at max; otherwise in 15. Not using the wheat right away is bad for growth so I would not suggest that. However, my proposal would be to first road and then irrigate the wheat, to help research; we grow in 7 instead of 6.

A factor to consider is how many tribes have alphabet. Is F10 allowed?

 

[CommandoBob]

A factor to consider is how many tribes have alphabet. Is F10 allowed?

Feel free to use F10; just keep me in the dark as long as possible on who we are facing. Wrapping that list in Spoiler tags would be fine. And it would be okay to say that there are five Commerical civs.

I just like to 'discover' who the other guys are. Sorta silly I know.

 

[ThinkTank]

And it would be okay to say that there are five Commerical civs.

I just like to 'discover' who the other guys are. Sorta silly I know.

I'll be even less specific: there are 2 tribes that started with alphabet.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I kind of lean toward a minimum run on Alphabet and try to trade for other techs with the money generated by that approach. Aggressive exploring is a must to get the necessary contacts needed to become tech traders, which is how we can buy those useful techs, especially pottery. Build a granary, get 11 settlers out of our capital, then the granary can be sold there. A second city can be our armory if it has the shields, and the third can be our worker factory. Some early city can share the wheat and be that settler factory. I think our first explorer needs to go directly west until he hits a beach, to meet as many contacts as possible. Our worker factory should be just west of our capital, I think about CxxxC spacing. I'd say build workers there continuously to add to our other cities to get them big, fast. If we don't want to fall behind in tech, we're going to need to be a Republic, so I vote that as our government choice. If we find it necessary to go Commie or Monarch later, we'll burn that bridge after we cross it.

 

[ThinkTank]

What's the idea behind min on alphabet? Compare this to max on pottery then max on alphabet. I think this scenario will give us alphabet faster, and pottery too, given that pottery on max takes only 12-15 turns, and that we will be researching alphabet when we are slightly bigger and have more roads.

Besides pottery, there is no tech we really need to cosider interfering with the Republic slingshot (because we already have warrior code, so we have a basic unit). Note that if we have only 12 cities, an early war is probably not needed, so horses and swords can wait. Anyway, if we do get the slingshot (in fact even if we try but don't get it) we will have enough trade value along the way to trade for techs.

 

[Cerenkov]

Newbie here. Any chance that I could get in on this one before it gets off the ground? I usually play at Monarch and really enjoy late-industrial combat; this sounds perfect.

 

[CommandoBob]

Welcome to the Forum, Cerenkov.



We still a couple of places open, so, yes, you are now on the roster and part of the team.

Feel free to post your thoughts/questions/observations on the game and our strategies and plans.

Don't let the Emperor level scare you. If you are comfortable at Monarch, playing ten turns at Emperor at one time will not seem much different.

 

[TheOverseer714]

But is Pottery going be all that important? I do think that maximum on Pottery and then maximum on Alphabet will get us those techs in about the same time as Alphabet on minimum will. The difference is, the maximum route will leave us with an empty bank account, and will maybe take longer. I'm open to doing it either way, but I'd like to be convinced that one way is better than another. I have become used to the minimum run and purchasing/trading for lower-tier techs because it usually is the best way at Emperor. I guess it depends on our competition in the run for Philosophy. If there are several AI's that already have Alphabet, we may lose the slingshot anyway. In my current solo effort, I lost the slingshot by delaying Alphabet for Pottery, so I guess I'm a little gunshy on any delay. I guess Commandobob might need to weigh in to settle this.

 

[Cerenkov]

Forgive me if this sounds naive, but might it make sense to pick ceremonial burial over pottery if we don't see many luxuries? Considering that we're limiting ourselves to twelve built cities, we'll be seeing higher-than-usual population growth in the ancient age once all twelve are built and that will mean more unhappy citizens unless we can get some temples built.

Really just thinking out loud here, since CB is usually pretty easy to trade for.

 

[TheOverseer714]

CB is dirt cheap, so definitely will trade for it. Temples probably would only be built, welll probably won't be built at all. Under Republic, the lux slider is far more effective. For me, I might build a temple so I can build a Cathedral, but I almost only build either of those in a cultural game. Not deriding your idea, but I'm betting we won't build any. Libraries, Universities and Markets will be built, but not much else until the late MA/early IA.

 

[Cerenkov]

Okay, I see your point. I tried fooling around with the lux slider in my current game, and wow! It really makes a difference when you're in a republic and not dead-set on being the tech leader.

 

[TheOverseer714]

And being tech leader gets harder above Monarch. By Demigod, it is trying not to be half an era behind. At Deity or Sid, it can be an entire era. Trading and buying techs becomes paramount. Temples aren't nearly as flexible for happiness as the lux slider is. If we want culture, Libraries are cheaper for Germany than Temples. This game might end up being a tech buying game, anyway. Once we get our government, we will probably buy more tech than research it.

 

[Cerenkov]

So, uh, what would it take to get the ball rolling?

 

[CommandoBob]

I plan to get started this evening and finish out the first turnset.

Both ThinkTank and TheOverseer714 have good ideas.

TheOverseer714 advocates a minimum research rate, save the gold and buy our knowledge.

ThinkTank favors a maximum research rate for Pottery (granaries) and then Alphabet (curraghs) and then try to get the Republic Slingshot.

Granaries will let us grow faster, once we build them.

We need Alphabet to get Writing, which opens up Philosophy and Code of Laws, both of which are needed for Republic.

I will go max on Alphabet, trusting that we can trade for Pottery with the two techs we know, Bronze Working and Warrior Code. We need to get to Republic quickly and have 4 techs to learn. Once in Republic, with a better economy, we can start to buy techs with gold.