CBob04 Achtung Panzer!

[Elephantium]

lurker's comment: El Justo, I think you should convert that post into a strategy article. It's great reading!

 

[El Justo]

lurker's comment: thanks Elephantium the funny thing is that i did indeed draft an article a long time ago in the Strategy forum. however, i couldn't find it in either the active or archived forums nonetheless, i simply reiterated the main themes. of course, i'm a big fan of the ind/modern warfare tactics. so i enjoy writing about it, too and sooner or later, i'm going to launch El-J02 which'll be w/ the new cold war files that i've been working on (about a year in the making!) this'll be chock-full of all kinds of modern warfare...from aircraft, missiles, submarines, carriers, anti-sub warfare, tanks, apc's, and a whole lot more.

this SG will be fun to watch, no doubt

 

[M60A3TTS]

Let's assume that we learn Motorized Transport early and then start of Scientific Method, leaving only SciMeth, Atomic Theory, Electronics and Flight to be learned in the Industrial Age. We begin to build Panzers.

We build ToE once we learn SciMeth and learn Atomic Theory and Electronics for free. Our Wonder induced Golden Age begins. We would have 20 turns of increased productivity to make vPanzers and 20 turns of extra commerce to help learn Flight. We could begin our expansion in our Golden Age.

Interesting idea, but I'm betting extremely difficult at this level with your variant. Motorized Transport is at the end of the Industrial Era. If you choose to work the top part of the tech tree all the way to the end, by the time you get to Sci Method on the bottom leg, the ToE may well be gone. Then, no GA and by the time you actually get to the modern era the most useful life of the panzer will be coming to an end as mech infantry and TOWs start to appear.

My suggestion would be to drop the modern age expansion requirement. Build a panzer, declare war on some far away place, then mobilize. As long as all 12 cities can work enough tiles to generate 50 shields with mobilization, you'll have 60 panzers in 10 turns. That will give you a good way to start expanding.

 

[CommandoBob]

I'd like to join too.

You're number 4 on the list!

I'm a bit worried that the 12 city limit is too narrow to allow for an interesting game until the panzers,...

I really considered two city limits; 12 and 20. Twelve will be tough, I admit, but we have brains and planning on our side, too. Twenty I thought would be too easy. Even on pangea, the AI seems to stop at 24 cities or so. So 20 human cities on a standard map seemed too big an advantage.

CBob, is ThinkTank correct? Let's suppose you don't get any oil or rubber (needed to build Panzers, right?) in your territory. You can't acquire any through war since you can't move out offensively.

Yes, we may need to trade for Rubber, or colonize it. So we trade for rubber once and then we conquer a second source of Rubber. Easy as pie.

lurker's comment: thanks Elephantium the funny thing is that i did indeed draft an article a long time ago in the Strategy forum.

Uh, not quite. Close, but no cigar.

In the Stategy forum you have these two post, #78 and #79 in the thread Modern Warfare Tactics. This in turn referenced something you have posted before, which I couldn't find.

Which means that article still needs to be written, even though I found your first post here very helpful. That kind of quality help needs to be in a strategy article.

Interesting idea, but I'm betting extremely difficult at this level with your variant. Motorized Transport is at the end of the Industrial Era. If you choose to work the top part of the tech tree all the way to the end, by the time you get to Sci Method on the bottom leg, the ToE may well be gone. Then, no GA and by the time you actually get to the modern era the most useful life of the panzer will be coming to an end as mech infantry and TOWs start to appear.

All true. But since we can be diplomaticly aggresive trouble, if someone did start to build ToE they would find themselves in a war with us and their neighbors. Would we show up to the party? No, but we could send cash.

 

[El Justo]

Uh, not quite. Close, but no cigar.

In the Stategy forum you have these two post, #78 and #79 in the thread Modern Warfare Tactics. This in turn referenced something you have posted before, which I couldn't find.

Which means that article still needs to be written, even though I found your first post here very helpful. That kind of quality help needs to be in a strategy article.

heh thanks and you found them those were the ones i was thinking of, especially #78.

i think most of that info can be translated into this SG (in terms of the RNG, a/d values, and the aa values). i would also think that if the AI can get to the Stealth aircraft in this game that it could inflict some damage. of course, it's a big if. i would also think that the jump from prop driven aircraft to the jet fighters will be interesting, too, especially if there's mismatches and all.

remember that the defensive value of your air units is what the hallowed RNG uses when determining A.) your success/failure against an enemy interceptor and B.) your susceptability to anti-aircraft/sam fire.

i did notice that the C3C Bomber unit has the same defensive value as the Fighter unit. so this means that it doesn't matter which of these first generation of air units are in the "first wave" (thus rendering part of my argument moot). i mean, they both have a defensive value of 2. however, this all radically changes when Jet Fighters are unlocked. they double the existing defensive value and this unit would be the first real "first wave" aircraft. and this 100% jump in value is tremendous. if this were TCW, where the a/d values are scaled out much higher, it would represent a humongous leap (eg. mustang and spitfire: 15A/15D, imagine a next gen jump to 30A/30D!). so on the surface, this sticks out the most to me.

there'd be a pretty good 3rd generation jump as well when the Stealth units come onboard. defensive values increase by 50% from the Jet Fighter to the Stealth Fighter (4 to 6) and 25% from Jet Fighter to Stealth Bomber (4 to 5). put this up against first generation defensive values and it's a max 300% increase (from 2 to 6). so that's nothing to shake a stick at as they say

to summarize, the Jet Fighter is probably the unit that can make the best impact in this SG b/c of the large jump in defensive value compared to the previous generation (Fighter). it would pit a 4 defensive value for the bombing unit and a 4 attack value for the interceptor. granted, it's an even matchup and all and this scenario would really only unfold if one civ doesn't have Jet Fighters in their build queue. either way, for large scale bombing raids, remember that your defensive values are the numbers that determine whether you get shot down or punch through and your attack values are what determine success or failure on air superiority missions.

 

[Tad Empire_0_o]

looks like we will have to conquer huge civs as they will take alot of land we didnt use... also if the civ decleres war on us &/or they demand something, do we have to give it up?

 

[TheOverseer714]

I think it depends on the demand. If they want 30 gold out of our total of 200 and they are huge, nah, not worth the fight. If they demand a tech or a city, well that ain't gonna fly. We are limited to 12 cities, but there is nothing wrong with razing one of theirs, or better yet, gifting it after selling it's improvements. That way we can get them into other wars. We aren't going to be wimps. If it were DG OR Deity, that would be another story.

 

[CommandoBob]

We aren't going to be wimps.

Just the words I was looking for!

We may have to cave in to an AI demand at some point, but by no means are we going to be passive and just watch the AIs do their thing. We want to watch the AI do our thing, which is mainly stay at war with every other AI most of the game.

 

[CommandoBob]

This is our starting position:

Achtung Panzer! At Start



While we wait for the remaining open spots to be filled, we can begin to discuss our opening moves.

And we have a very good start. We stand on a BG, we have two Wheats and two Wines in our initial nine tiles, in addition to another BG just north of where we stand, and a hill.

I am tempted to move our settler to the hill. I don't want to build on a BG, which means moving anyway. The hill will give us some defense, which we may need, though I hope not. A hill is hard to develop fully with roads and mines, which only yield 2 food and 1 shield per turn, the same as a city core. Plus, this leaves all the other tiles free to be improved to their fullest as the game progresses.

The worker has many interesting choices. Wheat and Wines beckon to the east and west. My initial thought is to leave the worker where he is and mine the BG and then road it. After that, to improve the Wheat or Wines, is harder. I favor roading a Wine first, even before mining or irrigation, just to get Wines connected to the capital. But after that I'm not sure of the next best worker task.

Build order for Berlin looks to be warrior and warrior, with one to explore and one to keep order in Berlin. Perhaps a settler after that. We'll need a second city soon, so we can focus our worker in making improvements to help our second city get built and growing faster.

 

[Mumpulus]

lurker's comment:
I'd move the settler NE:
- no need to irrigate an extra tile that gains you nothing in despotism
- wheat in the initial 9
- a guaranteed extra BG in the initial 9 and in the BFC
- you gain a shield on the hill after despotism
Additional pro for CBob's idea:
- given your location on the map, a higher chance of a more central capital

 

[Sasquatch]

Wow, nice spot. I don't have much time atm, gotta get to work.

I would move NE also, we'd want that hill's shields after despo. I also fear we'll see coast one tile away and be tempted to move to the coastline once moving NE given our spot on the map.
As for the worker, I'd road first then mine. Then road and irriigate the wheat, then road the wines.
Build order, warrior warrior .... have to think about it more after that, off to work

 

[ThinkTank]

I would move 1 NE too. I would stay there even if we see coast. Moving further or moving E looses a wheat. We have a possible 4 turner here, though with the tiles we see now we need the hill on the growth turn for that.

I think worker moves should be in favour of growth: road and irrigate a wheat, mine and road two BGs, road 1 wine, and then the other wheat. Build orders warriors, at least 2 but possibly more, until we can produce a settler on growth to 3. I would send out both warriors to scouting, and using the slider if that is necessary.

This are all quick thoughts, I'll try to make a real calculation later today.

 

[CommandoBob]

NE it is.

Though we do have a difference of opinion on worker turns.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Move the settler NE, I agree. Roading the wines gets us 1 lux, so that should be first, then the BG, then the wheat. Warrior=>warrior is fine, then maybe a settler if growth allows, if not, a second worker. Tech-wise, should we go max at pottery first, or min on alphabet? I think we can trade for pottery, but it might be awhile. I favor the minimum run.

 

[Tad Empire_0_o]

I would go max at pott beccause we will need to establish ourselves & then start librarys or something

 

[ThinkTank]

I'm fine with roading a wine first.

I think we should go for the Republic slingshot. If we do pottery first, or min on alphabet we might not get the slingshot. Question is, how important is pottery if we are only going to have 12 cities? I think it still is very important, since we will need workers also, and in this food rich position we wil get maximal benefit of a granary. Morover, pottery is relatively cheap, I estimate we can research it at max in 15 turns or so.

My proposal would be pottery at max and then continue at max for the slingshot.

CBob, can you maybe play the first 2 moves, (settler NE, worker to wine SE, and settle if the spot looks fine) and post a pic? Then we can do some real calculations.

 

[Elephantium]

lurker's comment: I'd move the settler 1NE, but I'd move the Worker 1NW and start irrigating the wheat immediately. Follow that up with a road, then road+mine on the wine. You won't need the lux so early that it's worth delaying the wheat-fueled growth for it.

 

[CommandoBob]

0 4000 BC

Settler moves NE on grassland.
WorkerA moves NW on Wheat.
​

[IBT]

1 3950 BC

Berlin is founded. Begins a rWarrior.
WorkerA does nothing yet.
​

[IBT]

No tech selected to research.

Did not have WorkerA irrigate for one reason: the despotism penalty. Does it apply here? I'm so used to mining green and watering brown that I've forgotten how that works.


The Greater German Empire 3950 BC



And the save is >>HERE<<.



And just so everyone knows:

Preferences



Governors

 

[TheOverseer714]

Yes, definitely water the Wheats and the Cow. Luscious, 3 Wheats and a Cow makes a settler factory city and a worker factory city right there in the core. We might get a nice QSC score if this was an XOTM. The settings are fine except the audio, I turn the music waaaaay down. I hate the music they have.

 

[CommandoBob]

Ok, I'll water the Wheat.

I don't mind the early music too much, but I like to hear the sounds of battle. However, the PC I'm on right now doesn't have speakers, which really isn't so bad.