Challenge-I-06

I suspect that it has to do with the order you set them up when you start the map. I'm guessing that it just uses the same method of assigning civs to start locations when you regen, so if you run mapfinder, you'll tend to get the same people near you on every regen.

If you go in and set it up again, you'll probably end up with other people, maybe even if you selected the same people in teh same order.
 
I suspect that it has to do with the order you set them up when you start the map. I'm guessing that it just uses the same method of assigning civs to start locations when you regen, so if you run mapfinder, you'll tend to get the same people near you on every regen.

If you go in and set it up again, you'll probably end up with other people, maybe even if you selected the same people in teh same order.

Exactly what I thought. That leaves the obvious discussion: Who should you force to be with you and who goes on the other side?
 
I mucked about with a few maps before playing through a game and I got Zara on my landmass every time. I then either got Tokogawa or Huayna as well (once both). However, I can't remember where I put them in my list of opponents (anyone know which position always is on your landmass?). I would think Ramses would be the best to be your guaranteed neighbour, will chase a pre-Christian religion and spread the AP religion without adopting it.
 
I don't think you can select who you will share a continent with that easily.

I don't think that order of selection in your opponent list determines who will be near you. What I do think is that it figures that out when you generate your first map, and then keeps the same order each time you regen from that map.

Ie, if you go to the custom game and select the same civs in the same order, you'll get different civs near you in that list.
 
^ That sounds right to me. Doubt you can force them onto your continent. Besides, either HC or Ramesses is good, and there's a good chance you get one of them.

This remiands me, Ozbenno or someone, why can I not see team assignments in the setup screen under BUFFY .002?
 
No barbs? Doh! I didn't realize that. I got a 560 AD win with barbs on. Let me try this again.

Perhaps, I'm blind. I don't see any required settings related to Barbs. Doesn't that mean any one of the following settings are valid for this Challenge?:

No Barbarians
Barbarians
Raging Barbarians

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Perhaps, I'm blind. I don't see any required settings related to Barbs. Doesn't that mean any one of the following settings are valid for this Challenge?:

No Barbarians
Barbarians
Raging Barbarians

Sun Tzu Wu

Any is valid. I think WastinTime was pointing out that if the game was without barabrians a better finish date would be achieved by trying again.
 
Right, I didn't word that very well. Barbs on is legal, but I think I can do better with it off.
 
375 AD without barbs to worry about. That date can be beaten. I researched all the way to Theo and then machinery without the oracle, but still I could not get the AI (Ramsses) to get Iron Working. I had to research it myself. I chose Rams and Zara to be on my continent. Willem was a better trader than Zara, but I think that was just bad luck not getting IW free.

I might play again just cus I have a few maps generated. It was fun.
 
I don't think you can select who you will share a continent with that easily.

I don't think that order of selection in your opponent list determines who will be near you. What I do think is that it figures that out when you generate your first map, and then keeps the same order each time you regen from that map.

Ie, if you go to the custom game and select the same civs in the same order, you'll get different civs near you in that list.

I haven't done an indepth statistical analysis... but I do seriously think that you can influence the odds of getting one or another civ as neighbor. I suppose one would have to look at the code to find out for sure, but I find that if I want a specific neighbor I put him in the top slot or the bottom slot. My second most wanted neighbor I put in the 2nd slot or the 2nd last slot. The one I absolutely want to be far away from I put in the middle slots.

I feel this gives better outcomes, particularly on something like Inland Sea. However, it isn't guaranteed to work, but subjectively it seems to improve my odds. I am still trying to determine whether this is more effective than my lucky rabbits foot or not.
 
hey - 1520 AD :)

Got 1, at least.

How does espionage work? I had no problems with anyone... except Zara, who was in theocracy and way ahead. I tried converting his civics at least 6 times - everytime, it failed. I've not tried it before, so maybe I was doing something wrong?

Finally gave him a poor city with christianity...
 
hey - 1520 AD :)

Got 1, at least.

Congratulations!

How does espionage work? I had no problems with anyone... except Zara, who was in theocracy and way ahead. I tried converting his civics at least 6 times - everytime, it failed. I've not tried it before, so maybe I was doing something wrong?

Finally gave him a crap city with christianity...

To convert a City of an AI running Theocracy, give him a Missionary of the desired Religion. Of course one loses control of which City is converted; it is usually the largest City, or it could be a little smaller depending on how far away a larger City is from the gifted Missionary.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I haven't done an indepth statistical analysis... but I do seriously think that you can influence the odds of getting one or another civ as neighbor. I suppose one would have to look at the code to find out for sure, but I find that if I want a specific neighbor I put him in the top slot or the bottom slot. My second most wanted neighbor I put in the 2nd slot or the 2nd last slot. The one I absolutely want to be far away from I put in the middle slots.

I feel this gives better outcomes, particularly on something like Inland Sea. However, it isn't guaranteed to work, but subjectively it seems to improve my odds. I am still trying to determine whether this is more effective than my lucky rabbits foot or not.

I'm not sure that works, I've been putting the AI I don't want to be next to me in slot 2 and it seems to be giving me someone else, it would be good to know how it actually does assign starts though.
 
I don't think you can select who you will share a continent with that easily.

I don't think that order of selection in your opponent list determines who will be near you. What I do think is that it figures that out when you generate your first map, and then keeps the same order each time you regen from that map.

Ie, if you go to the custom game and select the same civs in the same order, you'll get different civs near you in that list.

I agree with this. This is true in my experience.

I think the best way to get the right opponents near you is to:
-create a custom game (doesn't matter where you put the opponents)
-do a MapFinder save at the beginning (or some save that will let you regenerate)
-explore and see who are near you
-if you don't like your neighbors, go and create a new custom game
-if you like those neighbors you can use the save you made and just regen until you find a start you like. It will have those neighbors.

There will be some variations such as three AI on your island instead of two, but they should be the same people.
 
I have played this so many times already. Way more than I should of because I keep making the same mistake. I usually take a religion of a neighbor that spreads to me to build relations and for the OR building bonus before I have Theo, but I keep forgetting to switch to Christianity right before it is completed. I even have a piece of paper right next to my computer on which I wrote in big letters DON'T FORGET TO CHANGE RELIGIONS, but I just made the same mistake again for the sixth or seventh time. My plan was to use Christianity because nobody had it and then just convert low population cities with one friend on my continent who likes me vote for me. But when I use their religion for the AP religion accidentally, then they are going to be candidates themselves and they won't vote for me so all their votes just make it harder to get the votes necessary. I usually quit right then, because I don't know how I'd get enough votes to beat them with my two cities.

I'm playing a game right now where there's a different situation, but I am equally unsure how to win. Unless I think of something good I'll probably start over again, but I had a good starting location and it'd be a shame to throw it away if it were salvageable. This time my neighbor (Willem) didn't have a religion by the time I researched Theo. I didn't convert any of his cities keeping my free missionary in reserve, but the religion spread to one of his cities anyway and now he's spread it around to all his cities. So now if I use Christianity as the AP religion he's going to beat me in the election for secretary and I don't know how I could ever beat him for the AP victory. I have no other religions and as far as I know neither does he, so he can't be bribed out. HC is also on the continent and he's Buddhist.

The only option I can think of are to postpone the AP until I tech Divine Right (and hope I can get there first) and use Islam instead. Is this the only way? Is there a way of winning a diplo victory if you friend has converted and spread the religion around aside from conquering his cities to increase my population? I guess I could take a really long approach and try to eventually convert many people to Christianity and have them like me more, but that will take a lot of missionaries before enough of their people follow that religion.

Theocracy stops foreign religions from spreading in your territory. Is there a way to stop your religion from spreading to someone else's?
 
It is hard to win with another AI having the AP religion and maxed out their cities with it. My first attemot at this Zara was my neighbour and he converted, I just abandoned.

I think for this challenge you want to see Huayna and/or Ramesses as your neighbour (both on the same landmass would be excellent). They both will chase an early religion and can easily get to friendly because of civics (OR and HR), so you don't have to worry about them switching to the AP religion and can spread it around their cities.
 
Thanks Ozbenno. I have ditched that game for now. I may try to finish it at a later time attempting to get Islam from DR to replace Christianity. I'm working on another attempt now. I am close to a victory, and would have had it had not my last two missionaries failed to spread their religion.

I assume that trying to convert a city with a lot of already established religions or a religious holy city would be more difficult, but am not sure about what factors affect chance of missionary failure. Anyone know?

One other thing I've been wondering about:

When does the AI vote for diplomatic victories take place? Does it take place simultaneously with the player vote? Or do they vote on their turn after (or before) the player's turn?

If the player has just voted is it useless to try to get an AI up to friendly that turn? Is their vote already cast?

Is there a guide to diplomatic victories that deals with these issues?
 
I have ditched that game for now. I may try to finish it at a later time attempting to get Islam from DR to replace Christianity.

To get Divine Right quicker, a Great Prophet can bulb about 1/2 of it. Two Great Prophets can bulb practically the whole DR Tech, depending on Map Size.

I assume that trying to convert a city with a lot of already established religions or a religious holy city would be more difficult, but am not sure about what factors affect chance of missionary failure. Anyone know?

There's a precise formula for Missionary religion conversion of a City. My imprecise rule of thumb is 10% chance of failure per existing Religion. I think that is pretty close to the precise formula. As a result, its always best to covert Cities with a low (or best yet zero) established Religions. I always target a City with zero Religions when its a reasonable option (has a desirable Population and is not too far away). Next best is a City with one Religion which has about the same chance of success as a 90% military attack. I usually say a "prayer" when try to convert a City with 2 Religions. In such cases, its best to have "backup" Missionaries just like you always want "backup" military units when capturing a City.

When does the AI vote for diplomatic victories take place? Does it take place simultaneously with the player vote? Or do they vote on their turn after (or before) the player's turn?

All Civs (including the Player) effectively Vote on the same Turn. In general, you must get your Diplomatic bonuses on the Turn prior to the Vote in order for the AI Civ's Vote to be affected by it. There is one caveat to this general rule: When an AI presents a request, demand or just a trading option at the beginning of the Turn of the Vote, the diplomatic effect of your response will affect his Vote. If this happens, do what will please him, assuming you need his Vote.

If the player has just voted is it useless to try to get an AI up to friendly that turn? Is their vote already cast?

With the exception of the caveat mentioned above, it is useless to attempt to change an AI's Vote on the Turn of the Vote. All Votes are cast right after any AI requests of the Player have been completed (the caveat previously mentioned).

Is there a guide to diplomatic victories that deals with these issues?

I don't think so. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have regarding Religious Leader Diplomatic Victories.

There the "The Apostolic Palace Guide" which provides a excellent description (not entirely accurate though) of the effects of the The Apostolic Palace, but it doesn't mention much at all about the Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory Resolution and certainly no details about how to Win it. It also claims to be current with BtS 3.17.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/apostolicpalace.php

The timing of TAP Votes is based on when TAP is built. The first Resident Election occurs on the Turn immediately after this. It is best to measure the timing of all future TAP Votes relative to the Turn Number of the last Resident Election Vote.

The Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory Resolution will become available when all Civs have the TAP Religion and no Civ has 75% or more of the TAP Vote (no Civ is permitted to dominate the RL DV Vote). However, the RL DV Resolution (like all other TAP resolutions) itself occurs only on a roughly periodic schedule based on the Game's Speed:

Code:
Speed    Turn Period
=====    ==
Quick     7
Normal   10
Epic     14
Marathon 28

If the Game Conditions make no Resolution possible (including RL DV), the Turn a TAP Vote is scheduled will often be passed by without any notice. Every fifth period there will be a Resident Election and no Resolutions be available (regardless of any Conditions allowing them).

There is also a "Grace" period of up to 4 Turns: If you convert the last Civ to TAP Membership (hopefully not Full Membership) on the Turn the RL DV victory would have been scheduled, the RL DV is simply delayed one turn. You can be up to 3t more turns late and still have the RV DV option on the following turn. If you miss the grace period, a new Resident Election is often called for.

I've played dozens of Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory Games and still don't completely understand the conditions for a new Resident Election. Earlier versions of BtS had what I consider a "bug" in the schedule of RL DV and I'm not sure it has been entirely fixed. It has been at least partially fixed.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
When does the AI vote for diplomatic victories take place? Does it take place simultaneously with the player vote? Or do they vote on their turn after (or before) the player's turn?

If the player has just voted is it useless to try to get an AI up to friendly that turn? Is their vote already cast?

True, they have already made up their mind and it's too late to influence them. However, the votes are not counted yet! Any population change does still have an effect. This includes spreading religion to a new city. Yours or theirs. Don't forget, you can double your votes with a switch into the AP religion on the last turn. I imagine you could also double a friendly AI's votes, by converting them, but I've never tried that. I've always had the required votes already. (There is a chance that could backfire. It would change the candidates for the election. Anyone try this?)
 
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