[RD] Chinese Economic Struggles

Zardnaar

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I doubt Russia is going to stop selling food to china (or energy). Wouldn't your plan simply facilitate for easier transition to a Russia-China self-reliant block?
That is even assuming China can't produce even more massive quantities of food itself (it already is iirc the top producer in many basic foods, but has so large a population it still needs to import).

And how is China gonna pay for the food? Is Russia just gonna gift it to them? China's money is ultimately sourced from USA/EU. Well enough of it.

Russia really only exports things like grains China imports dairy, fats, meat etc from places like Australia/NZ/USA.

That whole we don't need the west narrative is mostly propaganda. Trade still goes via the oceans US controls that.

And they control the money supply as will directly or indirectly. No one wants yuan.
 
I have to suppose that if you had a deal for making food for China, you would have a literally colossal incentive to create those industries.
By the way, what would happen to the food the US/Canada etc were selling up to then to China? And the people who were working for those firms?

(not sure why you mention NZ though; we are talking about an import need of something as vast as China)
 
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I have to suppose that if you had a deal for making food for China, you would have a literally colossal incentive to create those industries.
By the way, what would happen to the food the US/Canada etc were selling up to then to China? And the people who were working for those firms?

(not sure why you mention NZ though; we are talking about an import need of something as vast as China)

Agriculture doesn't employ that many people.

It's bad forvthisevthst lose their jobs.

500 million starving vs a few unemploymed though.

China can't pivot their agriculture either they're short of water, arable land etc. They've really screwed their water table and land.
 
And how is China gonna pay for the food? Is Russia just gonna gift it to them? China's money is ultimately sourced from USA/EU. Well enough of it.

Russia really only exports things like grains China imports dairy, fats, meat etc from places like Australia/NZ/USA.

That whole we don't need the west narrative is mostly propaganda. Trade still goes via the oceans US controls that.

And they control the money supply as will directly or indirectly. No one wants yuan.

See this is dangerous talk. This is exactly the catalyst that would cause China to start embargoing it's goods to the West. If China can't import Russian grain or energy they will have no choice but to lash out. The West has no consumer goods industry of it's own, it's over reliance on China means such an embargo would lead to a worldwide depression. The entire worldwide economy needs Chinese consumer goods and industrial parts as it's lubricant, without which liquidity immediately dries up.

Besides what other alternative is there to Russian energy and grain? You can't import Ukrainian grain anymore. The US has been increasing the value of the dollar so much that China can't buy oil from Saudi Arabia or the US because oil from those parts is sold in dollars and the Yuan can't keep up. Arabia also just recently cut their oil production. Also Biden is not pumping more oil, as he has suspended new drilling leases.The only other major food producer is the US, so you can't buy food from there because again expensive dollars required. So where can China get food and energy that's cheaper then what the West is willing to sell?

There really is only Venezuela and Nigeria left for the energy. Unfortunately Biden now wants to make a deal with them to siphon the oil away to cheapen the US domestic supply, thus cutting out China from buying. And food? There's Canada, but they'll most likely be raising interest rates to reach parity with the dollar, thus making the Loonie too expensive for the Yuan to get such food. China can't start buying from Australia or New Zealand because they can't reward them for the recent trade war, it would be a major loss of face. So only Brazil, Argentina, and Chile are left as major food suppliers to China assuming they too don't start raising interest rates and Bolsonarro doesn't lose his election.
 
See this is dangerous talk. This is exactly the catalyst that would cause China to start embargoing it's goods to the West. If China can't import Russian grain or energy they will have no choice but to lash out. The West has no consumer goods industry of it's own, it's over reliance on China means such an embargo would lead to a worldwide depression. The entire worldwide economy needs Chinese consumer goods and industrial parts as it's lubricant, without which liquidity immediately dries up.

Besides what other alternative is there to Russian energy and grain? You can't import Ukrainian grain anymore. The US has been increasing the value of the dollar so much that China can't buy oil from Saudi Arabia or the US because oil from those parts is sold in dollars and the Yuan can't keep up. Arabia also just recently cut their oil production. Also Biden is not pumping more oil, as he has suspended new drilling leases.The only other major food producer is the US, so you can't buy food from there because again expensive dollars required. So where can China get food and energy that's cheaper then what the West is willing to sell?

There really is only Venezuela and Nigeria left for the energy. Unfortunately Biden now wants to make a deal with them to siphon the oil away to cheapen the US domestic supply, thus cutting out China from buying. And food? There's Canada, but they'll most likely be raising interest rates to reach parity with the dollar, thus making the Loonie too expensive for the Yuan to get such food. China can't start buying from Australia or New Zealand because they can't reward them for the recent trade war, it would be a major loss of face. So only Brazil, Argentina, and Chile are left as major food suppliers to China assuming they too don't start raising interest rates and Bolsonarro doesn't lose his election.
What in the world are your sources for all that bluster?
 
China isn’t going to use any serious economic measure against the USA, I don’t think.

Chinese leadership seems to me to really really value stability. A prosperous China minimizes the chances of any internal dissent formulating against the Party. Internal dissent, internal reform, up to or possibly including overthrow of the regime and the Party is what keeps their decision makers awake. Not foreign action.

In light of that, they won’t do anything against the West, not seriously. It’d risk their prosperity to lose the Western market. Their domestic market isn’t up to that level of consumption. They don’t want a depression in the West. Somebody has to buy those cheap products, the Chinese domestic market isn’t up for it.

The current situation is likely to continue; they make noise, but want no serious economic back and forth, for political reasons. We make noise, but want no serious economic back and forth, for political reasons.

Russia is caught in this, and the war isn’t important enough to change the calculations of Chinese leaders. China isn’t going to try to change the outcome of the war meaningfully. Russia wins or loses on its own.
 
See this is dangerous talk. This is exactly the catalyst that would cause China to start embargoing it's goods to the West. If China can't import Russian grain or energy they will have no choice but to lash out. The West has no consumer goods industry of it's own, it's over reliance on China means such an embargo would lead to a worldwide depression. The entire worldwide economy needs Chinese consumer goods and industrial parts as it's lubricant, without which liquidity immediately dries up.

Besides what other alternative is there to Russian energy and grain? You can't import Ukrainian grain anymore. The US has been increasing the value of the dollar so much that China can't buy oil from Saudi Arabia or the US because oil from those parts is sold in dollars and the Yuan can't keep up. Arabia also just recently cut their oil production. Also Biden is not pumping more oil, as he has suspended new drilling leases.The only other major food producer is the US, so you can't buy food from there because again expensive dollars required. So where can China get food and energy that's cheaper then what the West is willing to sell?

There really is only Venezuela and Nigeria left for the energy. Unfortunately Biden now wants to make a deal with them to siphon the oil away to cheapen the US domestic supply, thus cutting out China from buying. And food? There's Canada, but they'll most likely be raising interest rates to reach parity with the dollar, thus making the Loonie too expensive for the Yuan to get such food. China can't start buying from Australia or New Zealand because they can't reward them for the recent trade war, it would be a major loss of face. So only Brazil, Argentina, and Chile are left as major food suppliers to China assuming they too don't start raising interest rates and Bolsonarro doesn't lose his election.

It would be in the scenario if a shooting war has already started.

China's lost it's competitive edge anyway companies have been leaving.

It doesn't really produce any consumer goods that are critical that can't be sourced elsewhere long term.

Energy and food are China critical chokepoints in the event of a shooting war for example starting.

So Chinese propaganda is essentially just that they would get a very rude shock in a real shooting war.
 
There's Canada, but they'll most likely be raising interest rates to reach parity with the dollar

Not quite sure what you mean here - the BoC has been raising their rates ahead of the Fed, and they're currently equal.

Trying to pump up the CAD to reach parity with the USD is definitely not on the agenda of either the BoC or the government of Canada.
 
Not quite sure what you mean here - the BoC has been raising their rates ahead of the Fed, and they're currently equal.

Trying to pump up the CAD to reach parity with the USD is definitely not on the agenda of either the BoC or the government of Canada.

Well the dollar already is expensive, so if the Loonie is already equal then it means it's expensive for the Chinese to purchase with Yuan. Thus it costs China significantly more to import Canadian products, meaning they'll have to find cheaper alternatives or else see more money go down the drain.

What in the world are your sources for all that bluster?

Geopolitical history. No bluster, facts. Anyone can look it up if they are willing to take the time and research, it's called the internet.
 
Well the dollar already is expensive, so if the Loonie is already equal then it means it's expensive for the Chinese to purchase with Yuan. Thus it costs China significantly more to import Canadian products, meaning they'll have to find cheaper alternatives or else see more money go down the drain.



Geopolitical history. No bluster, facts. Anyone can look it up if they are willing to take the time and research, it's called the internet.
If you're making specific claims though it's up to you to back then up if called on it.
 
If you're making specific claims though it's up to you to back then up if called on it.

It's kinda obvious that western nations have no immediate solution if China just one day decided to turn off the faucet. Sure long term they possible could but it would take at least over a decade. In the meantime a decade long economic contraction would ensue that would push voters across various nations to vote for right wing politicians who most likely (again not all) probably would try and find reasons to stop helping Ukraine.
 
See this is dangerous talk. This is exactly the catalyst that would cause China to start embargoing it's goods to the West. If China can't import Russian grain or energy they will have no choice but to lash out. The West has no consumer goods industry of it's own, it's over reliance on China means such an embargo would lead to a worldwide depression. The entire worldwide economy needs Chinese consumer goods and industrial parts as it's lubricant, without which liquidity immediately dries up.

Besides what other alternative is there to Russian energy and grain? You can't import Ukrainian grain anymore. The US has been increasing the value of the dollar so much that China can't buy oil from Saudi Arabia or the US because oil from those parts is sold in dollars and the Yuan can't keep up. Arabia also just recently cut their oil production. Also Biden is not pumping more oil, as he has suspended new drilling leases.The only other major food producer is the US, so you can't buy food from there because again expensive dollars required. So where can China get food and energy that's cheaper then what the West is willing to sell?

There really is only Venezuela and Nigeria left for the energy. Unfortunately Biden now wants to make a deal with them to siphon the oil away to cheapen the US domestic supply, thus cutting out China from buying. And food? There's Canada, but they'll most likely be raising interest rates to reach parity with the dollar, thus making the Loonie too expensive for the Yuan to get such food. China can't start buying from Australia or New Zealand because they can't reward them for the recent trade war, it would be a major loss of face. So only Brazil, Argentina, and Chile are left as major food suppliers to China assuming they too don't start raising interest rates and Bolsonarro doesn't lose his election.

China is going to eat the US's lunch. After spitting Europe's industrial bones, which we european (our idiots in charge) are serving them on a silver platter.

The US is simply politically irredeemable as it stands, in terms of recovering its industrial economy. Know-how has been dying for the past 20 years and the generation that knew hoe to make all kings of stuff is now literally dying out - no going back (easily) has been reached in this decade, it becomes impossible to quickly "bring back" industries even if the political problems are fixed.
Financial rents in the economy are too high, everyone is doing "services" trying to squeeze money from everyone else. This leads to multiplication of costs and of bureaucracy. The US simply cannot compete with other countries in industrial production. China no longer needs american companies, period. They'd rather postpone a geopolitical confrontation until they became stronger and the US weaker per ongoing trends, but if it must be now so be it. It's too late.

It could drag on some of its more capital intensive or more "knowledge complex" industry, though losing it gradually. But instead has chosen to attempt to use it as a weapon - too late.
Those design and "knowledge" corporations sell services to actual manufacturing industry. If that industry is in China and the US embargoes sale of those services - other companies will arise (they already have - will grow fast) in china to service the industry there. The US ones wither and die.
This has relevance to the current war in Europe also for a very simple reason: western Europe and indeed the US itself simply do not have the industrial capacity to support an attrition war with any other big country. They can't even support one with Russia. Certainly not with China.
China won't interfere there. Just do its own stuff, trade within the eurasian blow which will be the power centre for the 21th century, and ostensibly ignore the US. Let it wither. No one in eastern Asia will volunteer to be Ukraine II.

China won't even embargo "the west". Just - not now but in a few years after picking Europe's bones clean - refuse to accumulate its currency as payment.
What China will do now, is, in order to get replacement markets for its exports, choose to use existing accumulated dollar reserves to "buy out" of the "western system" the "third world" by buying up the foreign (dollar) debt that had held them tangled via the IMF, WB, etc. Actually only need to start doing so, because soon enough repaying that debt in dollars cease to matter to the rulers of other countries - the ruling elites of thiose "third world" countries indebt their countries actually because they want to loot and then export wealth and need a reliable place to store it in. It once was sterling, the UK. Then for a long time the US and its dollar. Now the US has proven itself unreliable by seizing assets from multiple countries.

I have said months ago: look at what the arab countries do. Look at what Turkey does. They see where the wind is blowing.
 
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It's kinda obvious that western nations have no immediate solution if China just one day decided to turn off the faucet. Sure long term they possible could but it would take at least over a decade. In the meantime a decade long economic contraction would ensue that would push voters across various nations to vote for right wing politicians who most likely (again not all) probably would try and find reasons to stop helping Ukraine.

That also turns off the money tap. How does China feed itself if there's no money incoming? China has a looming financial collapse can't feed itself can't power itself and has looming demographic disaster.

They might theoretically get away with it once and then get to watch as all those factories close down either due to those companies fleeing, sanctions, boycotts etc.

China gets to play that card once. Response they starve to death.
 
China is going to eat the US's lunch. After spitting Europe's industrial bones, which we european (our idiots in charge) are serving them on a silver platter.

The US is simply politically irredeemable as it stands, in terms of recovering its industrial economy. Know-how has been dying for the past 20 years and the generation that knew hoe to make all kings of stuff is now literally dying out - no going back (easily) has been reached in this decade, it becomes impossible to quickly "bring back" industries even if the political problems are fixed.
Financial rents in the economy are too high, everyone is doing "services" trying to squeeze money from everyone else. This leads to multiplication of costs and of bureaucracy. The US simply cannot compete with other countries in industrial production. China no longer needs american companies, period. They'd rather postpone a geopolitical confrontation until they became stronger and the US weaker per ongoing trends, but if it must be now so be it. It's too late.

It could drag on some of its more capital intensive or more "knowledge complex" industry, though losing it gradually. But instead has chosen to attempt to use it as a weapon - too late.
Those design and "knowledge" corporations sell services to actual manufacturing industry. If that industry is in China and the US embargoes sale of those services - other companies will arise (they already have - will grow fast) in china to service the industry there. The US ones wither and die.
This has relevance to the current war in Europe also for a very simple reason: western Europe and indeed the US itself simply do not have the industrial capacity to support an attrition war with any other big country. They can't even support one with Russia. Certainly not with China.
China won't interfere there. Just do its own stuff, trade within the eurasian blow which will be the power centre for the 21th century, and ostensibly ignore the US. Let it wither. No one in eastern Asia will volunteer to be Ukraine II.

China won't even embargo "the west". Just - not now but in a few years after picking Europe's bones clean - refuse to accumulate its currency as payment.
What China will do now, is, in order to get replacement markets for its exports, choose to use existing accumulated dollar reserves to "buy out" of the "western system" the "third world" by buying up the foreign (dollar) debt that had held them tangled via the IMF, WB, etc. Actually only need to start doing so, because soon enough repaying that debt in dollars cease to matter to the rulers of other countries - the ruling elites of thiose "third world" countries indebt their countries actually because they want to loot and then export wealth and need a reliable place to store it in. It once was sterling, the UK. Then for a long time the US and its dollar. Now the US has proven itself unreliable by seizing assets from multiple countries.

I have said months ago: look at what the arab countries do. Look at what Turkey does. They see where the wind is blowing.

Still reliable if you're not planning an invasion.

See previous reply about China. No one wants the Yuan.
 
That also turns off the money tap. How does China feed itself if there's no money incoming? China has a looming financial collapse can't feed itself can't power itself and has looming demographic disaster.

They might theoretically get away with it once and then get to watch as all those factories close down either due to those companies fleeing, sanctions, boycotts etc.

China gets to play that card once. Response they starve to death.

Because they can embargo with preconditions for lifting the embargo. They have enough wealth to buy food from South America for a few years, the West would be in a severe depression for those few years on the other hand. The bet is that the West will fold to economic pain especially if that pain is extremely severe for over a year. Finally the West gives in to China's demands for reconciliation and trade is resumed as if nothing happened.

You'd have to be a lunatic to think that everyone would seriously stand up to China all at once and handle the pain, and not any other nation would step outta line and fold to the preconditions of reconciliation. France, Germany, or some other power may more than likely fold and with it a bunch more will use it as an excuse to fold as well. Selfishness not morality is the law of this land we call planet Earth.
 
That also turns off the money tap. How does China feed itself if there's no money incoming? China has a looming financial collapse can't feed itself can't power itself and has looming demographic disaster.
They might theoretically get away with it once and then get to watch as all those factories close down either due to those companies fleeing, sanctions, boycotts etc.

China can feed itself if its prepared to give up protein and make serious changes to modernise much of its antiquated small hold farms. But the middle class has gotten use to eating meat and higher standard of living
Communist party is well aware that it wont survive another serious food crisis with widespread civili unrest.
China can surive its economic recession, though its goldern age is over for good now. It dosnt look like its projection to overtake the US is going to happen
 
Because they can embargo with preconditions for lifting the embargo. They have enough wealth to buy food from South America for a few years, the West would be in a severe depression for those few years on the other hand. The bet is that the West will fold to economic pain especially if that pain is extremely severe for over a year. Finally the West gives in to China's demands for reconciliation and trade is resumed as if nothing happened.

You'd have to be a lunatic to think that everyone would seriously stand up to China all at once and handle the pain, and not any other nation would step outta line and fold to the preconditions of reconciliation. France, Germany, or some other power may more than likely fold and with it a bunch more will use it as an excuse to fold as well. Selfishness not morality is the law of this land we call planet Earth.

And when was the last time west gave into blackmail? 1938 and even Hitler was a bit more diplomatic about it.

If you're deliberately trying to wreck a nations economy why wouldn't they declear war if able?

If you're gonna screw us over how about we screw you over.
 
Geopolitical history. No bluster, facts. Anyone can look it up if they are willing to take the time and research, it's called the internet.
Whatever your sources are they do not understand either China or Xi. @Rg339 has it right. Internal stability is the CCP's top priority especially through the end of the year. Ending exports would undo their economy completely and they cannot afford that. China has been stockpiling food for over five years and bought over $14 billion worth of soybeans from the US in 2021. If food is an issue, why would Xi cut off US suppliers? As an exporting nation, China does want a global recession; that would just create unrest in China. Xi has been working to increase internal/consumer demand to keep his industry going, but it is not happening very fast. Unemployment is already an issue because of covid restrictions. It is not in China's interest to upset the current world order in a significant way. They are internally focused on keeping China stable.

By the way, Biden doesn't pump any oil. He hangs in the WH. The US oil industry decides how much US oil to produce. A new lease sold today won't produce a drop of oil for years if at all. If you want increased oil and gas production in the US, you need to get on board with the likes of Exxon Mobil and hundreds of other oil producing companies in the US.

BTW Exxon Mobil produces between 2 and 2.4 million barrels a day of oil and has over 40 billion "barrels" of oil and gas reserves. I wonder if they could produce more.....hmmm. Oh wait they are profit driven and won't produce more unless it is very profitable for them.

 
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China has been stockpiling food for over five years and bought over $14 billion worth of soybeans from the US in 2021. If food is an issue, why would Xi cut off US suppliers?

Well gee, it looks like you sorta explained it to yourself. China has been stockpiling, meaning they're not as desperate and are willing to handle a little economic pain and shutoff trade to western nations if they are pushed around too hard.

And when was the last time west gave into blackmail? 1938 and even Hitler was a bit more diplomatic about it.

If you're deliberately trying to wreck a nations economy why wouldn't they declear war if able?

If you're gonna screw us over how about we screw you over.

It's no longer 1938 anymore. What China would be doing is what the United States does all the time with impunity, impose sanctions. Not like Iran or NOKO have gone to war over sanctions, so why should the USA? Or wait! Does that mean if the US does it's a hypocrite!?
 
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