City Worker Professions also requiring Equipment [OPEN]

[adriankowaty]

If you want to buy what it takes to make say a pioneer, then double click on a colonist on the dock in Europe and select pioneer. Once arriving in the new world change profession and let another unit become a pioneer. This way you can transport cargo for professions without using up more slots.

Thank you for suggestion.

 

[raystuttgart]

it's your mod afterall.

No, it is not "my mod" - I am just a team member.

The WTP core mod belongs to the WTP team - all team members need to find consense.
(Considering the stuff we remove, integrate or change - meaning everything we agree to work on together.)

Thus as long as the team does not like it, this feature will not be implemented as part of the WTP core mod.
(Only features with team consense can be implemented in the WTP core mod. Every team member could veto it.)

But I would also never implement a version by myself that I do not like to play myself.
(Because I could implement a version I like later on in my private modmod of the WTP core mod.)

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These here are 2 totally different questions:

1) What can I implement into the WTP core mod by consense of the team. --> For this we need to find consense.
2) What will I later implement for my private modmod for my own games. --> For this I can do whatever I want.

In other words:

I do not ask for permission considering what I implement for myself because nobody else is affected.
I ask for permission to integrate stuff I implement(ed) into the WTP core mod so we can all improve it together.

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It is actually a very democratic and free system.

There is no boss and there is nobody being overruled by majority.
The people that invest effort are free to decide how they want to invest it.

1) Everybody choses himself what he likes to work on and how he wants to implement it.
Nobody can be forced to work on something he does not like or implement it in a way he may not want it.

2) But decisions about the WTP core mod need to be made by consense.
This also includes that any core team member may veto the implementation of a feature.

 

[adriankowaty]

No, it is not "my mod" - I am just a team member.
The mod belongs to the WTP team - all team members need to find consense.

Thus as long as the team does not like it, it will not get implemented as part of the WTP core mod.
(Only features with team consense can be implemented in the WTP core mod.)

But I would also never implement a version that I do not like to play myself.
(Because I could always implement such a version I like later on in my private modmod of the WTP core mod.)

These here are 2 totally different questions:

1) What can I implement into the WTP core mod by consense of the team. --> For this we need to find consense.
2) What will I later implement for my private modmod for my own games. --> For this I can do whatever I want.

No, I understand, I referred to you as collectively the mod team, not just you yourself. If the team doesn't support the changes - it's up to them/you (as side note, I find lack of separate word for 2nd person plural in English to be annoying) to manage the game. I accept it. I just posted my commentary and opinion - I did not expect it to be forced upon.
Anyway, in retrospect I find equipment feature welcome - it will add certain tediousness, but increase some sort of thinking factor into the game.

 

[raystuttgart]

it will add certain tediousness ...

See, what you consider tediousness is what I might consider fun.
For me it would simply add challenge to plan and manage my economy.

But again, it always just comes down to the same old question:
What is fun to you according to your own personal taste?

increase some sort of thinking factor into the game

Exactly, there is simply no feeling of "achievement" if there is no "challenge".
I personally like this feature because it will require the player to make more strategic decisions.

 

[adriankowaty]

See, what you consider tediousness is what I might consider fun.
For me it would simply add challenge to plan and manage my economy.

But again, it always just comes down to the same old question:
What is fun to you according to your own personal taste?

If you ask me personally, it's the thinking out and planning on the colony economy and slowly developing nation and colonizing America. Complex in game economy, especially commodity economy like right now is always welcomed. I just don't like not being able to be autarkic in basic economy or being unable to set up new production chain. Since household goods consume resouces which are rare to get (exotic wood) and fieldworker tools also require goods, setting up production chain to secure supply is getting complicated.
I don't mind paying increased costs in ingame economy or dealing with new mechanics - I just dislike the option of not being able to do things myself without imports or spreading out economy towards entire map. I play your mod as economy and development simulator, type of game I enjoy the most.
Of course, again it's your (your team's) mod - do as you please, I might be unhappy about singular issues but I will adapt. Always do.

Exactly, there is simply no feeling of "achievement" if there is no "challenge".
I personally like this feature because it will require the player to make more strategic decisions.

Fair enough.

 

[raystuttgart]

I might be unhappy about ...

Everything related to Profession balancing and most other stuff is accesible by XML files.
I never really understood why we discuss details endlessly if they can be changed so easily.

You are unhappy about a detail the WTP core mod implemented / balanced?
Just take a look at the XML and change (or even deactivate) it to your liking.

Guys, this is a mod. You can change it!
Behave like creators not like consumers.

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Almost 80% of the features we implented in the mod can be deactivated by even a single XML setting.
It may have side effects to overall gameplay and balancing - but you are still free to do whatever you like ...

----

But ok, I start repeating myself again ...

 

[adriankowaty]

Everything related to Profession balancing and most other stuff is accesible by XML files.
I never really understood why we discuss details endlessly if they can be changed so easily.

You are unhappy about a detail the core mod implemented / balanced?
Just take a look at the XML and change (or even deactivate) it to your liking.

Guys, this is a mod. You can change it!
Behave like creators not like consumers.

----

i.e.
You don't like that a Profession requires equipment?
Simply remove the equipment balncing from the XML for the Profession.

Almost 80% of the features we implented in the mod can be deactivated by even a single XML setting.
It may have side effects to overall gameplay and balancing - but you are still free to do whatever you like ...

----

But ok, I start repeating myself again ...

Fine, no problem then.

 

[Marla_Singer]

In order to produce anything, you have investment costs (one shot) and operating costs (at each turn):

• investment costs are already pictured in the game by improvements on terrain tiles and buildings for manufacturing professions.
• operating costs are already pictured by the yield consumption of manufacturing professions and citizens food requirements.

Obviously the proposal here is to increase investment costs. If so, there's a certain redundancy in requiring tools to build improvements and tools for the unit to work those improvements. So basically, that just means that we need to produce more tools.

We all play this mod for years now and I fully see the need to make the game more challenging, but I'm not sure that's really the right way to do so. Basically that would only slow down growth at start without preventing the snowballing effect (and therefore really increasing the difficulty). Late game may risk to grow increasingly tedious to keep track of every needs with many new citizens forced to stay out of the colony for several turns.

 

[raystuttgart]

So basically, that just means that we need to produce more tools.

This feature is not intended for what you may know from WTP 3.0.1 but what is currently internally WTP 4.0.

In WTP 4.0 we pretty much now have 100 Tradable Goods, including e.g. Artisan Equipment and Fieldworker Tools.
This concept intends to give many of those an acutal purpose for gameplay other than being just "Domestic Market Goods".

So while it may not make much sense for the WTP version you know, it makes a lot of sense for the WTP version we are soon to publish.
(A massive amount of gameplay has been added and a lot of gameplay was changed over the last 2 years.

In short:
No, it is not intended to have the player just produce more Tools.
It is intended for new Yields in WTP 4.0 which goes a lot deeper considering economy simulation than WTP 3.0.1

In other words:
I am convinced this concept will become accepted for WTP 4.1 once players have actually played WTP 4.0.
Right now most players can simply not imagine which direction this mod has taken the last 2 years.

e.g. See here:

 

[Marla_Singer]

This feature is not intended for what you may know from WTP 3.0.1 but what is currently internally WTP 4.0.

In WTP 4.0 we pretty much now have 100 Tradable Goods, including e.g. Artisan Equipment and Fieldworker Tools.
This concept intends to give many of those an acutal purpose for gameplay other than being just "Domestic Market Goods".

So while it may not make much sense for the WTP version you know, it makes a lot of sense for the WTP version we are soon to publish.
(A massive amount of gameplay has been added and a lot of gameplay was changed over the last 2 years.

That doesn't really change much about the point. There are already investment costs in order to produce yields which are terrain improvements and buildings.

As much as it makes sense to add Artisan equipment requirement to produce a building or Fieldworker tools to produce an improvement, that would only be redundant to ask for units to bring their own stuff as well. Thinking about it again, there's actually no difference between both in the end. Let's assume that you would need 20 artisan equipments to build a furrier's house and 20 artisan equipments for a unit to go work in the house, then it's exactly the same as if you would need 40 artisan equipments to build a furrier's house.

We all have our own way to mentally picture things when we play, but what distinguishes a carpenter's workshop from a tobacconist's workshop is precisely the tools which equip both to me. Otherwise they are just wooden shelter. And same applies for terrains, what is supposed to represent a farm if it doesn't have what it needs for plowing and harvesting? So if you want to go this way, then bringing extra yield requirements to produce buildings and terrain improvements may be the way to go?

 

[raystuttgart]

Well, everything in modding is a matter of personal taste.

I have explained my reasons for this feature often enough and do not feel it is necessary to repeat it all again.
It is all written in this thread and should be easy to understand - otherwise ask.

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One remark though:

Building Improvements currently does not consume resources / equipment when built.
It would require somebody to be motivated to implement it - which I am not.
Main reason is that it would be incredible difficult to teach it to AI - also I like the "Profssions System" better.

This feature I suggest however will work with the current WTP logic out of the box.
All it requires is to set up some XML for the Profession Yield Requirements and volia it works.
Even our AI already knows how to handle it, since it has already gotten the logic for it for "Settlers Profession".

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In other words:

This feature already exists and requires almost no additional effort other than XML.
The only question I am thus asking: Should I configure it for the WTP core mod?

If the answer is "No", that is absolutely no problem for me.
I can simply configure it in my private version with almost no effort.

----------------------

All my other arguments I have already made.
(e.g. being consistent with the rest of the "Profession System".)

But I understand that personal taste of people is different.
Thus I have no intention to force any feature into the core mod.

This is why we have a discussion thread and a poll for it.
(Since it is not yet accepted it is also not yet "core mod".)

 

[raystuttgart]

Otherwise they are just wooden shelter.

But yes, that is exactly how I see them.
Buildings that are worth little without the people in them that are equipped properly to work.

For me this mod is about the Colonists and Professions, not about Buildings and Improvements.
That is the main difference between Civ4Col and Civ4BTS - that is why I prefer Civ4Col over Civ4BTS.

So you are kind of precisely formulating why I prefer this concept.
Simply because I want to play Civ4Col and not Civ4BTS ...

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By the way:

This is also the reason why e.g.
1) All Artillery Units have been transformed into Artillery Professions (to be equipped)
2) Founding of Cities by any civil Unit is now is only possible by Settler Profession (to be equipped)
...

Both of these changes are absolute fan favourites of our community.
I am simply following through consequently my game design choices.

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We all have our own way to mentally picture things when we play, ...

Exactly, it simply always comes down to personal taste.
There is no "right" or "wrong" in modding, just what you like most.

 

[Marla_Singer]

But yes, that is exactly how I see them.
Buildings that are worth little without the people in them that are equipped properly to work.

For me this mod is about the Colonists and Professions, not about Buildings and Improvements.
That is the main difference between Civ4Col and Civ4BTS - that is why I prefer Civ4Col over Civ4BTS.

So you are kind of precisely formulating why I prefer this concept.
Simply because I want to play Civ4Col and not Civ4BTS ...

I also prefer Civ4Col than Civ4BTS, and I entirely agree that the great strength of Civ4Col is that it's focused on colonists and professions. Yet investing in citizens is about making them experts and improving the dedicated infrastructures they need to work.

Empty buildings in Civ4Col have no use, their only purpose is to serve as professions locations. That's the major difference with Civ4BTS and why your comparison doesn't hold. If buildings are differentiated in the game (and not wooden shelters), it's precisely to serve those citizen-based mechanics. So in the end of the day, considering that you create the dedicated tools when building the dedicated job location or that it is to your citizen to bring them with him in order to get inside it, that fundamentally changes nothing. The end goal remains to invest in something in order to make your guy able to work.

 

[raystuttgart]

But with my concept the tools can be reallocated as useful.
In your concept they are "bound" / used up. --> Which I do not like.

e.g. You don't want to have a Colonist work as farmer anymore in Jamestown, he can give free his Fieldworker Tools.
(Which will automatically happen when he is e.g. assigned as a Miner and picks up normal Tools.)

Now you can e.g. decide to use them for a Tobacco Planter in Jamestown.
Or maybe you have a better use for them in another City and thus ship them there.

The player will be highly flexible and be able to make many interesting choices during the game.
It is much more interesting to me than a boring "1 time invest", since it is a dynmamic system where the player can continously change his mind.

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Also in your concept (aka Vanilla) a Farmer does not need any equipment at all when he is working on a Plot without an Improvement.
That is completely unimmersive to me. He is still working as a Farmer and requires equipment to do so.

My concept would not have any such logical issues and concept switches, it is completely consistent.
Map Professions (e.g. Pioneer), Plot Professions (e.g. Farmer), Building Professions (e.g. Carpenter) would all follow the same rules.

We can discuss as long as you want about this but I will not be convinced otherwise.
Especially since as I said this is all already working almost out of the box with maybe a little bit XML.

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As I said, I have very good reasons to want do it this way.
I though this through like 100 times already - and each time I came to the same conclusion.

Again:

There is no question for me if I will implement this for myself or not.
The answer is already given: Yes !

There is also no question for me to implement an alternative system.
The answer is already given: No !

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The absolutely only question that remains to be answered (for me):
Should it become also WTP core mod ?

This has not yet been clarified but there is also no need to clarify it soon.
It is perfectly fine if this decision is postponed until next year or even later.

If we cannot find any consense on this, so be it. Then it will not become WTP core mod.
There is enough features that all of us still want and where consense is already found.

But let us please not waste time to convince me of changing my own personal taste.
Because that is not going to happen - I know what I want to implement and what I do not want to implement.

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As I said:
I basically offer a feature that is technically already done.

I would need at most a few hours to finish it up inside the core mod.
Then we could do some test games internally to balance it.

So now community and team just need to decide :
"Yes, make it Core Mod." or "No, keep it for yourself."

If community and team refuse that offer it is perfectly fine for me.
But I will not make any alternative offer that would cost me additional effort.

 

[Marla_Singer]

But with my concept the tools can be reallocated as useful.
In your concept they are "bound" / used up. --> Which I do not like.

That's not my concept, it's the one of Brian Reynolds. I'm not asking you to implement anything new, I was only saying that you're planning to implement something which is already represented in the game since 1994.

Now if you want to do things differently, then do it. That's your mod after all.

 

[raystuttgart]

which is already represented in the game since 1994.

For me it is not.
Otherwise I would not want to overhaul it.

See here:

Also in your concept (aka Vanilla) a Farmer does not need any equipment at all when he is working on a Plot without an Improvement.
That is completely unimmersive to me. He is still working as a Farmer and requires equipment to do so.

 

[raystuttgart]

Now if you want to do it differently, ...

If I would not want to do it differently I would not have started this concept discussion.
So yes of course I want to do it differently because it will make the game more immersive and fun (for me).

 

[Marla_Singer]

Also in your concept (aka Vanilla) a Farmer does not need any equipment at all when he is working on a Plot without an Improvement.
That is completely unimmersive to me. He is still working as a Farmer and requires equipment to do so.

Personally I like it a lot the way it is. As it shows how tough it was to survive in the wild in the early days. After all, if Humanity is still there, that's because our ancestors managed to survive in the wild. So I see nothing strange personally in the fact you can feed yourself in the wild without a farm.

The point of the farm, to me, is to feed others so that they can do other jobs. And here's where the 4X dimension begins.

 

[raystuttgart]

... that's because our ancestors managed to survive in the wild.

Are you now claiming that the first colonists in the New World managed to grow crops with their bare hands without having any tools and equipment?
These people had farming equipment and were still hardly able to survive in this new world without the help of the Natives. (Half of the first colonists actually starved to death.)

... you can feed yourself in the wild without a farm.

Well that is harder to achieve actually than you may think. I should know since my grandparents were farmers and I spent half my childhood on a farm.
Do you really think it would have been easy to feed 50 people just from some bushes with just stones and some wood as tools.

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But again, maybe we 2 have just a different immersion.

Personally I like it a lot the way it is.

I fully accept that everybody has a different personal taste in modding and gameplay.
We have a poll for this and will see in the end if community and team want it or not.

Otherwise:
There is simply no wrong or right in modding.
There are just endless different personal tastes when it comes to gameplay.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Are you now claiming that the first colonists in the New World managed to grow crops with their bare hands without having any tools and equipment?
These people had farming equipment and were still hardly able to survive in this new world without the help of the Natives. (Half of the first colonists actually starved to death.)


Well that is harder to achieve actually than you may think. I should know since my grandparents were farmers and I spent half my childhood on a farm.
Do you really think it would have been easy to feed 50 people just from some bushes with just stones and some wood as tools.

------

But again, maybe we 2 have just a different immersion.


I fully accept that everybody has a different personal taste in modding and gameplay.
We have a poll for this and will see in the end if community and team want it or not.

Otherwise:
There is simply no wrong or right in modding.
There are just endless different personal tastes when it comes to gameplay.

You're making this way more confrontational than I intended it. I never pretended farming was free, I was only saying that they already cost something as tools, time and pioneers are already required to build them. The mechanics you'll implement is only about adding extra costs to already existing ones. If you want that nonetheless, then go for it and give it a try.

As a friendly advice, if it doesn't work as expected and it appears in early times that the player can't grow enough revenues to pay for all required materials, and you end up after multiple travels to Europe with tons of citizens forced to stay out of the colony because they can't get access to a job, then it wouldn't necessarily be a good idea to change everything else to make it fit. If you want to address the issue about food supply in early days, it's not necessarily particularly realistic to have 10 units eating nothing just because they are outside the colony.