City Worker Professions also requiring Equipment [OPEN]

[raystuttgart]

... it's not necessarily particularly realistic to have 10 units eating nothing just because they are outside the colony.

There is already a concept in the drawer to tackle this: "Upkeep".
Also we will have a another related concept coming: "Logistics".

Everything step by step.
Not all features can be implemented at once.

If you want to address the issue about food supply in early days ...

No, that is not why I want to have this feature.

For the Food / Growth I however have other concepts like e.g. this:
New Population Growth Mechanic

The mechanics you'll implement is only about adding extra costs to already existing costs.

Let us not repeat the discussion we just had over 6 posts.

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For me it is about adding challenge, fun and immersion.
But I fully understood that you do not like this concept.

So let us simply accept that we disagree and have different personal taste for gameplay.
There is no need that one of us tries to convince the other of his own personal taste.

 

[Marla_Singer]

For me it is about adding challenge, fun and immersion.
But I fully understood that you do not like this concept.

So let us simply accept that we disagree and have different personal taste for gameplay.
There is no need that one of us tries to convince the other of his own personal taste.

It's not about liking, disliking or even personal tastes. Needing guns to hunt makes sense, so I like it!

The thing is rather that guns are very expensive at the beginning of the game and hunting is (or should be) one of the most basic activity. My intent was only to give my very humble hindsights about how it would turn out once implemented (and yes, considering that "guns you don't have" = "money to buy them", in the end it's just about adding extra costs to the already existing costs about building a lodge and breeding an expert hunter).

Now I very well know it's extremely long and time consuming to develop things, and you may be too much into it to see my intents weren't as negative as you interpreted them.

 

[raystuttgart]

... you may be too much into it to see my intents weren't as negative as you interpreted them.

When have I ever said that you had negative intents ?
Again, these discussions are not about "good" or "bad" nor "right" or "wrong".

You have things that you want to mod or play with.
I have other things that I want to mod or play with.

That is perfectly fine.
So why not simply accept it?

Let us not try to repeat endlessly what we already said.
I heard your argument the first time and I answered to it ... still we simply disagree.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Do you even read my posts fully before answering me?

 

[raystuttgart]

Do you even read my posts fully before answering me?

Yes I do, but I think that everything important was said.
What specifically do you want me to answer to that has not yet been answered?

... about how it would turn out once implemented ...

You did and I simply do not share your views.
Because for example you do not even know how I would balance it.

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People also often totally neglect that the difference between fun and tedious is balancing.
Meaning we could e.g. require only very little equipment or much equipment for each job.

But considering balancing I also cannot say much yet, since it would need to be fine tuned in testing.
Generally however as I said I think that e.g. 20 Field Worker Tools for a Farmer is a good first start.

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Again:
This concept was not yet accepted and it is thus not yet going to be intergated in WTP core mod.
Still that does not change anything about how I want to implement it so I can at least use it in my private mod.

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So would I please be allowed to implement features for my own personal usage according to my own personal taste?
If community than says that it would like to also have it great. If not, then it stays a feature in my private modmod.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Yes I do, but I think that everything important was said.
What specifically do you want me to answer to that has not yet been answered?

No you don't read me, you only want this conversation to end with you saying: "This will be implemented and my decision is final ".

I perfectly know that from start, but it's not because "your decision is final" that implementations and its consequences don't deserve being discussed.

 

[raystuttgart]

... its consequences don't deserve being discussed.

The consequences and benefits for gameplay have been discussed up and down.
So what is the point of repeating it all again?

Team and community heard now all different opinions and can simply use the poll.
Everybody can make up his own mind if this should become integrated into WTP core mod or not.

Voting for yes: Increases the chances of this becoming a WTP core mod feature.
Voting for no: Decreases the chance of this becoming a WTP core mod feature.

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So community as a whole can vote democratically if it wants this feature I offer or not.
What I am not offering though is to implement a totally different concept - then somebody else will have to implement it.

However if any team member vetos this, it is also dead considering integration into the core mod.
Many features have been vetoed in the past already by team members and I have always accepted it.

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It is as simple as that. Why make it more complicated?
I will be ok with both decisions and will definitely not act against team consense.

I simply explained to you why I want to have it - and I explained it more than once already ...
That explanation is still true and has not changed the slightest by our discussion.

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So what else do you oterwise want to discuss?
Do you want to "prove" me that my own personal taste is wrong?

 

[devolution]

The AI would struggle massively if implemented like proposed. However, making it a "soft-lock" would be more interesting. How about the output being restricted to 50% unless proper tools are equipped ? (as a bonus we'd rein in the yield inflation a bit as well )

 

[Mr. ZorG]

How about the output being restricted to 50% unless proper tools are equipped ?

in this case, we will have to rebalance the yield of the tiles, since now the mod is not able to accept fractional numbers, like 3.5 or 6.3.
in addition, we will get problems with the extraction of food (this is the basis of the development of the colony) and this will force us to revise the formula for the growth of the colony and the food consumption of the colonists.
too much complexity for 50%...

 

[raystuttgart]

How about the output being restricted to 50% unless proper tools are equipped ?

Considering Efffort:
This would be a huge amount of additional effort for adjusting the existing "Profession System".
It would even require AI changes that are currently not necessary - see below.

Considering Immersion:
It would not be immersive for me to have a Miner work in a Mine without Equipment.
Especially if there is inconsistence that workign with and without Equipment was both possible ...

Considering Gameplay:
It would make it feel inconsistend and confusing to allow both variants.
Half-hearted weak compromises have never made anybody happy but just frustrate everybody.

Considering AI:
Since we implemented the "Settler Profession" the AI already has a small AI logic to buy Profession Equipment when needed.
At most a tiny adaption of that logic may be necessary if we see in testing that the current logic is not good enough - I believe however it is.

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Summary:
I see little issue to make the concept I suggest work - in fact the Profession XML already allows it.
All suggested changes I have heard so far from others would only make it less fun and more effort to me.

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Why not simply give it a try and see how it feels in test games for WTP 4.1?
Then team and supporters can simply decide if they want to keep it or not.

I could for WTP 4.1 create a separate branch for this feature so it can be tested safely.
Only once it is agreed / confirmed we would then merge it into the master.

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To give you numbers that may reduce the panic:

A city with 50 Colonists would need about 1000 Equipment in total to have all its workers equiped.
(As I said, each Colonist would require only 20 Equipment to be equiped for a Building or Plot Profession.)

Also during the process the Equipment can always be reallocated by simply changing Professions.
So all decisions a Player take can be reverted since nothing of that equipment is lost / used up forever.

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Yes, it will change gameplay. That is the purpose of this concept.
But change may also be interesting and fun ... just give it a chance.

It is honestly pretty funny to me that players never trust my concepts when I propose them.
And later on once implemented community loves them anyways and would not want to play without anymore.

e.g.
Happiness
Health
Crime and Law
New Movement System
Settler Overhaul
Artillery Overhaul
....

Every single time people screamed and feared the world would end when I suggested such a feature.
And in the end it proofed every single time that it was actually fun to play with these additions and changes.

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As I said:
I offer to build an internal test version of this in a separate feature branch once we start work for WTP 4.1.
It would not be any additional effort for me, since as I said I would use this for my private WTP modmod anyways.

 

[Mr. ZorG]

Why not simply give it a try and see how it feels in test games for WTP 4.1?
Then team and supporters can simply decide if they want to keep it or not.

I could for WTP 4.1 create a separate branch for this feature so it can be tested safely.
Only once it is agreed / confirmed we would then merge it into the master.

I, as Marla_Singer wrote above, I'm afraid that at the beginning of the game this will create big supply problems (if I understood what she was talking about correctly).

those who need some additional resources to carry out any action (for example, pioneers) are not so often used at the beginning of the game and the tools are not very expensive. while new resources are significantly more expensive (about twice). but while simple tools can be produced fairly quickly, Fieldworker Tools are difficult to produce because of the materials used to make them. thus, in my opinion, the growth of colonies will be greatly slowed down and a rebalancing of many parameters will be required.

however, I am willing to run a series of tests to see how applicable the concept is.

 

[raystuttgart]

however, I am willing to run a series of tests to see how applicable the concept is.

That is all I asked for.

Give me a chance to show you that it may indeed be fun.
At some point in the near future I will prepare a branch for it to try it out.

But right now I want to focus on the upcoming release WTP 4.0.
After that I would like to implement first what we discussed and already agreed for "Capitals" (aka WTP 4.1).

So this may come maybe in half a year or so.
It is not necessarily top priority for me.

 

[Cacaso]

I like the "city worker professions also requiring equipment" idea, I think it might be interesting to help curb/delay the snowball effect of having too much gold at the end of this game a bit, and also this idea might be fun to play and historically appropriate (I remember that famines already occur in the Jamestown colony because the settlers focused too much on producing tobacco and forgot about food in the early days).

As Ray suggested the idea of creating a separate branch to do tests and balances and then add it to the WTP core, I think it might be interesting to accept this offer. if it's nice and well balanced then we add it.

As mentioned here in the discussion, to avoid having a bunch of units idling over cities at the beginning because they don't have tools to work with, maybe we could make it so that when the setller founds a new city it already brings some initial tools (like 40 tools are needed to equip a unit with the settler profession, the city would already start with these 40 tools which would be enough to equip the first 2 units working, if this number seems low you can increase it, I think starting with 100 tools/equipment, which would allow 5 units working initially would already be a great number).

So these initial units could already start working, they would produce the cash crops/minerals that would be sold in Europe to be able to buy other tools/equipment to continue the process.

I think that with these initial tools/equipment that allowing the work of some first units of a new city, it would already help in the greater acceptance by the community.

 

[raystuttgart]

maybe we could make it so that when the setller founds a new city it already brings some initial tools

Already part of the concept.

But most likely people simply do not read what I write.
It is simply much easier to be against all new ideas ...

And because it was asked several times:
The Profession "Settler" would bring the first starting tools and equipment with it.
So every newly founded city would e.g. allow at least a Carpenter, a Lumberjack and a Farmer to work.
(So i.e. when the settlers settles down he would drop into the City 40 Tools, 40 Fieldworker Equipment and 20 Household Goods.)

 

[Schmiddie]

I am basically open to the idea. However, I'm worried that it will only lead to more micro-management in the end and no additional benefit for the progress of the game.

There are so many new features now that you might not be able to handle/use them all in the given limited game time per round.

Hence my concern that this quite extensive (from the management level) feature will only slow you down and have no real benefit.

It certainly also depends on the balancing.

 

[raystuttgart]

It certainly also depends on the balancing.

That is actually the point. The feature itself just adds more gameplay.
The balancing will make the difference between "tedious" and "fun".

 

[RedFoxPremiumFur]

Would it be possible to implement these professional equipment not as one time cost, but as resource that is used in production. For example you would need 1 tool per 1 lumberjack per 10 turns. These numbers are random and can and should be changed to balance things out.
And now, if you don't have tools/guns(hunter)/artisan equipment you either get malus and smaller production by 10%,20%..50% (depending how long your worker use old and damaged tools) OR providing right equipment is increasing production by certain amount.

 

[VegetableRights]

The player will have an option to buy the missing tools immediately (like buildings), correct?

The most important thing is the feedback. If the game is going to tell the player they need these products - the option to buy should present at the same time:

ie informs players they are missing x amount of field tools, and presents an option to buy for y.

 

[raystuttgart]

.. correct?

No, that is not correct. I do not like "beaming" of goods.
I think it was also already discussed in the thread.

 

[VegetableRights]

I read the thread but I may have missed it.

Why it ok then to buy buildings? Is that not 'beaming' of goods?