Civ 6 vs. Civ 5 in regards to future 7

This is an open discussion forum. I'm talking to you.

The same way the game notifies the player of everything else. Plus, a little planning ahead would be needed, Is that so offensive.

No, it still derisively dismisses the reasons and context for such suggestions and insultingly declares a disingenous non-reason ("for complexity's sake,") to try and invalide it. It's toxic, insulting, and unproductive of a claim, and I should see no reason to hear it again.
1. I know. I was just being clear in case you thought my comment was misguided to you
2. That's not the point. I mean for new and returning players. How do you indicate that certain units are only upgradeable to certain levels?
3. Complexity for complexity's sake means: unnecessarily complicated solution for quite a simple problem. Which it is, in my opinion, and there's nothing toxic about that, you're getting mad on someone else's behalf...

I'm not sure why you're so mad (again)?
 
2. That's not the point. I mean for new and returning players. How do you indicate that certain units are only upgradeable to certain levels?
Computer games tend to haves manuals and documentation if commercially sold, even if only .pdf.

3. Complexity for complexity's sake means: unnecessarily complicated solution for quite a simple problem. Which it is, in my opinion, and there's nothing toxic about that, you're getting mad on someone else's behalf...
Just because you believe a simplistic mechanic is better does not mean deriding and dismissing other people's ideas, and declaring they all have a flawed reason instead of the one presented, is anything but, yes, toxic conduct, and it should be retired.
 
Nobody in the modern era of playing video games reads manuals. Sorry to say. As much as I enjoy them.

If you have to pull out a manual to understand a game nowadays, it's poorly designed. That's why we have Civilopedia and such. Most things have tooltips on hover. Lots of little quality of life things.

I did not deride or dismiss anything. That's just your opinion. Again, you appear mad with out-of-nowhere angry remarks and accusations of toxic behaviour that simply isn't the case.

I described it the best way I could. Which is like an overly complicated solution for a very simple problem. I fear it would make it harder on new and returning players. Not just your idea, but in general.

You should refrain from getting offended on others behalfs...
 
The rule I seem to recall hearing (though it may be from more recent devs, not Sid himself - then again Sid hasn't been involved in developing Civ in a long time) is one third returning features, one third changed features, one third new features.

It would seem to make much more sense, because as written, the rule you could only ever bring back features that were in the latest game, and each game would be two-thirds identical to the previous one. And while it may have been suited to early iterations of the game when there were only one or two previous versions, the weight of "never changed since Civ I" grows exponentially.
The new(er) twist that we have in the 2020's is the notion of DLC. post-release content, and game modes. Corporations came back, but as an optional game mode. In Civ2 and Civ4, spies were units that were moved on the map. In Civ3, espionage missions became very abstract, while Civ5, BERT, and Civ6 made the spies and the missions more specific and concrete, without having an actual unit on the map. Spies got names and promotions, but moved "magically."

Even in Civ6, the science victory condition was changed from vanilla to GS.

I expect that we will see some items from previous games come back, though it will be in later DLC or expansions.
 
Yeeaaaaah, much as I used to leaf through my manuals front and back in my younger days, I have to agree it's really not standard operating procedure to read them anymore.

And re: vorlon mi's point, DLC are just spread-out expansions; and civ has had those, adding new feature and restoring old ones, since Civ III (the proto-expansions of II do not to my mind qualify. I don't believe they significantly alter the design maths (and corporation, of course, was itself an expansion feature in its original game).
 
I think I would like the military in Civ 7 to be something like:

- Separation of soldiers and equipment
- They are produced in different ways and affected by different civics/bonuses
- Soldiers can be trained or drafted. In some cases a lot of them in a short time.
- Equipment is globally produced. A joint "project" for your cities producing equipment "points" for the soldiers. Points are used for arms distribution/upgrades.
- Drafted units return to population pool after finished campaign. Bye bye promotions.
- Peaceful nation can still have a huge draft pool and equipment points pool
- Militaristic can create draft pool quick and equipment points

Something like that.
 
I think I would like the military in Civ 7 to be something like:

- Separation of soldiers and equipment
- They are produced in different ways and affected by different civics/bonuses
- Soldiers can be trained or drafted. In some cases a lot of them in a short time.
- Equipment is globally produced. A joint "project" for your cities producing equipment "points" for the soldiers. Points are used for arms distribution/upgrades.
- Drafted units return to population pool after finished campaign. Bye bye promotions.
- Peaceful nation can still have a huge draft pool and equipment points pool
- Militaristic can create draft pool quick and equipment points

Something like that.
I agree 100 %. I felt it was futile to throw more radical ideas into this tread that is already chaotic, but I would favor a system basically exactly like that. I also think that producing a unit should consume a population from the city - or alternatively lock up a citizen like when they are assigned as specialist or on working a tile - in order to limit endless unit spam.
 
The Civ 6 database is way less hardcoded than Civ 5 and the ability to mod graphics into the game stomps Civ 5. Civ 6 also makes modded multiplayer completely seamless. I really don’t know what you’re talking about. In many metrics, Civ 6 is a lot more moddable than 5.

(Side note: this criticism inexplicably always comes from people who have never modded before, or often have never even played Civ 6.)

The AI is also awful in Civ 5.
While it's true that i haven't modded, i've put thousands of hours into all the civs. The only one i've ever used mods on is 6; i feel like i need them to make the game enjoyable, and other versions I never felt that way.
My understanding is that by not releasing the .dll, Civ 6 is incapable of having some of the extremely comprehensive mods that Civ 5 has, but that very few modders can even work with the .dll effectively, and that outside of this civ 6 is considerably more moddable than civ 5 :)
This is what I meant, and as a non-modder, i can't say for sure what's easy or hard. I have read this, though, in my search to make this game more enjoyable:
from Siesta Guru's AI+ mod said:
Notes:
- The modding tools provided don't allow coding, nor in-depth changes in all areas of the game. This means I'm really limited in what I can do, and there are many known issues with the AI overall. I'm also no longer continously developping this mod, since there's just not that much I feel I can still do.
but, again, i also don't know enough about programming and modding to have any idea if that's changed since then.

[I know infixo's mod does different things than AI+, but the idea that the base game's AI won't fully develop cities' tiles or properly produce/upgrade units or siege with any coordination, etc, seems to necessitate letting the community have access to all the same tools they've always had.]

Otoh, i have more hours in 6 than any other version, except maybe 4. On the gripping hand, most of those hours are games played with your (pokiehl's) and others' mods b/c the base game is so much more lacking than earlier versions. And again, is there a FfH-style rework of 6 that changes it so fundamentally the way that mod does? Or the way other 4x/GrandStrat games have total overhauls?? Is that possible? I'm genuinely asking: i'm not in the civ scene at all and cna't mod so i don't know. but as a casual, its been my impression that a rework of that magnitude isn't available b/c of the code that's accessible.

I really like districts and the way the map is much more a part of the game than before. I just don't like feeling i'm playing a really pretty online board game against elementary schools kids when I play SP, and it seems to me that in previous versions, modders would've been able to correct the AI far more than they can. but maybe that's the rosetinted glasses.
 
I think I would like the military in Civ 7 to be something like:

- Separation of soldiers and equipment
- They are produced in different ways and affected by different civics/bonuses
- Soldiers can be trained or drafted. In some cases a lot of them in a short time.
- Equipment is globally produced. A joint "project" for your cities producing equipment "points" for the soldiers. Points are used for arms distribution/upgrades.
- Drafted units return to population pool after finished campaign. Bye bye promotions.
- Peaceful nation can still have a huge draft pool and equipment points pool
- Militaristic can create draft pool quick and equipment points

Something like that.

I don't mind having some form of long-term upgrade. Even just as a nominal like "this is the Princess Patricia Light Infantry unit" which gets "upgraded" over time for different conflicts. Even just for some game-play role-playing, it's always cool to know that this level 5 machine gun basically came from that early slinger of yours.

But for balance, I don't mind if that's like expensive, or limited in how you assign them. It shouldn't be cheap to take your old army and magically equip them all with tanks.
 
I also think that producing a unit should consume a population from the city - or alternatively lock up a citizen like when they are assigned as specialist or on working a tile - in order to limit endless unit spam.
Civ 5 had a good, soft cap on military units via a unit supply mechanic. It was based on your number of cities and the number of citizens you have. I think it was elegant and unobtrusive.

That feels easier to integrate into Civ than an overhaul linking military units to pop 1:1 directly, but regardless, I agree that we need some check on military strength.
 
Nobody in the modern era of playing video games reads manuals. Sorry to say. As much as I enjoy them.

If you have to pull out a manual to understand a game nowadays, it's poorly designed. That's why we have Civilopedia and such. Most things have tooltips on hover. Lots of little quality of life things.
Although, a Civilopedia or tech and unit upgrade chart would solve the problem, too, yes?

I did not deride or dismiss anything. That's just your opinion. Again, you appear mad with out-of-nowhere angry remarks and accusations of toxic behaviour that simply isn't the case.

I described it the best way I could. Which is like an overly complicated solution for a very simple problem. I fear it would make it harder on new and returning players. Not just your idea, but in general.

You should refrain from getting offended on others behalfs...
It's time to stop trying to defend odious behaviour and just quit the odious behavior. Neither the original disingenuous dismissal of ideas, or digging oneself deeper trying to make a faulty defense, and more false allegations against me, is improving your case. You're dying on a poorly-chosen hill.
 
Civ 5 had a good, soft cap on military units via a unit supply mechanic. It was based on your number of cities and the number of citizens you have. I think it was elegant and unobtrusive.

That feels easier to integrate into Civ than an overhaul linking military units to pop 1:1 directly, but regardless, I agree that we need some check on military strength.
I kind of miss in Civ2 where military support is linked to excess production affected by Government type.
 
You're also assuming people read these.

I would guess - only a guess mind you - that generally speaking, only a niche minority does so.

You'd need clear in-game warnings, it's pretty much the only way (and even then there would be complaints, but more manageable).
 
You'd need clear in-game warnings,
Which I mentioned here:

The same way the game notifies the player of everything else. Plus, a little planning ahead would be needed,
But he still carried on as though that was insufficient, so I can't fathom what he's demanding.
 
I agree 100 %. I felt it was futile to throw more radical ideas into this tread that is already chaotic, but I would favor a system basically exactly like that. I also think that producing a unit should consume a population from the city - or alternatively lock up a citizen like when they are assigned as specialist or on working a tile - in order to limit endless unit spam.
Humankind has this, and it feels much better than Civ5 and Civ6 in this regard

Civ 5 had a good, soft cap on military units via a unit supply mechanic. It was based on your number of cities and the number of citizens you have. I think it was elegant and unobtrusive.

That feels easier to integrate into Civ than an overhaul linking military units to pop 1:1 directly, but regardless, I agree that we need some check on military strength.
Even in Civ5 you can simply spam more units to replace the ones you lose, especially if you have high Production. This is especially noticeable in Civ6 where Production can easily get broken. In my last Civ6 game I went to war with Cree who had a whole bunch of cities with mines and industrial districts. I was killing 2-3 of their units every turn, but it had no effect no them because they could easily produce as many in as many turns. This is unrealistic because you can't you just keep spamming units just because you have mines and factories, there is no sense of the human cost (and the unhappiness that so large a loss in life should bring).

This is much better in Humankind; it forces me to pick and choose my battles instead of just mass-producing units and throwing them at my enemies when I know that the cost of replacing them is more than just a few extra turns.
 
Humankind has this, and it feels much better than Civ5 and Civ6 in this regard


Even in Civ5 you can simply spam more units to replace the ones you lose, especially if you have high Production. This is especially noticeable in Civ6 where Production can easily get broken. In my last Civ6 game I went to war with Cree who had a whole bunch of cities with mines and industrial districts. I was killing 2-3 of their units every turn, but it had no effect no them because they could easily produce as many in as many turns. This is unrealistic because you can't you just keep spamming units just because you have mines and factories, there is no sense of the human cost (and the unhappiness that so large a loss in life should bring).

This is much better in Humankind; it forces me to pick and choose my battles instead of just mass-producing units and throwing them at my enemies when I know that the cost of replacing them is more than just a few extra turns.
Humankind though, allows you to work every tile around the city automatically, regardless of the city population. The population figures in that game (and in its predecessor, Endless Legends) are more like Civ's Specialists than 'raw' population points in the way they act.
For a population limitation on Infinite Unit Spam, though, Specialists or any other sub-set of basic population can work as well as basic Population Points. IF, as in Humankind, the 'specialists' are the source of much of the city Production, Gold, Culture, etc., then losing them to unit production is as a major a cost as losing basic population.

I think a complete balancing of unit costs, production and limitations on spam will require adding several things not really in Civ 6 now:

1. Some direct relationship between population and units. Most simple would be 1 Unit = 1 population point, but removing Specialist points or reducing the effect of population on tiles ("partial population points" = units) although more complicated, would also work, and still allow small or starting cities to defend themselves.

2. Alternatives to your own population, in addition to the All or Nothing 'hire' City State armies. From at least the Bronze Age, foreign, barbarian, allied, neutral powers all contributed military strength to each other by hiring out soldiers and warriors as individuals, individual units, or entire armies. That flexibility needs to return (Barbarian Clans does include it now, with a limited ability to hire or buy Barbarian units from a Clan and even get Unique Units for extra Gold). This, connected to a limitation imposed by your own population numbers, would give a good approximation of the actual way armies worked until the Industrial Era. Frederick the Great famously said that the Prussian Army consisted of "1/3 native draftees, 1/3 hired mercenaries, and 1/3 foreign soldiers forcibly incorporated ("impressed")" into the army. That was, even for its time, excessive reliance on foreigners, but it might show the upper limit that a game could allow.

3. As posted, a mechanic to relate losses to country Morale, Happiness, and/or Loyalty. This could also be linked to type of government, since some governments are far more susceptible to negative reactions to heavy casualties while others are relatively impervious to them. And, lesser effects short of Revolt should also be included: when casualties are heavy, people willing to volunteer dry up rapidly, and even potential draftees become scarce on the ground: Napoleon by 1813, after almost 23 years of war, found that only a tiny fraction of the called up draftees actually showed up that year, and his army was about 1/3 under strength at Waterloo because almost none of trhe draftees called up for the campaign actually arrived. Correctly balanced with government type and country/Civ Morale, this would be a powerful Brake on the All-Conquering All The Time fantasy domination game.
 
1. Some direct relationship between population and units. Most simple would be 1 Unit = 1 population point, but removing Specialist points or reducing the effect of population on tiles ("partial population points" = units) although more complicated, would also work, and still allow small or starting cities to defend themselves.
Have a 'human' resource that works like Strategic Resources.
 
The problem with using citizens outside of cities is that they are not a set unit of a quantity of something. A citizen can cost 10 Food or 100, so not all citizens are equal. It would make more sense for units to just cost Food. A big city might be able to produce four units without losing a citizen while a small city might lose a citizen right away when producing just a single unit. But even that might still not scale well, making the cost too prohibitive early and too neglible late. Also, there's the issue of maintenance. Do they still consume 2 Food per turn? If so, from where? Is there a global stockpile of Food for your military, maybe that's what you build Granaries for?

Games that have military units based on population seem to either use large numbers instead of discrete units on the map (think of how an army in Victoria can scale from 500 to 50000 on a single territory, and military pops likewise can just grow in size with high granularity) or end up having each unit cost the same but have to enforce an overall unit limit like in AoE to avoid exponential economic growth overwhelming both the engine and the player. Humankind does neither but it's population economy is completely out of balance and a major pain point in its core gameplay loop since the open beta.

In Civ, making all citizens cost the same means much larger late-game cities, and the idea of one citizen = one tile worked can no longer really be sustained, you'd need to have a way to assign citizens in stacks of 10 or so to specialist jobs in cities. But that's risking a lot of damage to the game's long-held traditional identity of its worker placement system for uncertain and possibly too niche gains.

Small detour: IRL, a unit taking so much damage it loses all its fighting capacity happens long before 100% of it are dead. Especially before artillery became significant, battlefield death rates were a lot lower. Moreover, families may remain otherwise intact and widow of a fallen soldier might still raise their kids and as many of them as otherwise, meaning that long-term population development isn't affected. So having a unit cost citizens/food or not having them do so - both is "realistic" and "unrealistic" simultaneously, just different ways to abstract things.

So I'd look at it more from a gameplay side which abstraction is more helpful. Limiting the number of units a civ can field beyond their productive output is reasonable, but I don't think citizens are the mechanic to hook this limit into. A separate military capacity *based on* (but not taking away from) population, government, cities, and infrastructure seems the most straightforward.
 
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