fail-deadly-
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2018
- Messages
- 18
Warning: Massive block of text follows. TLDR; this is a different way of accounting for population in Civ, where population points die, and their creation is not based on food, along with a bunch of other stuff to revamp the game.
Intro: So, this idea is for a wholesale change for how the Civilization series handles population. The scope of the change would be similar to the magnitude of change in going from stacked units to one military unit per tile. Currently, population is measured in discreet units that can occupy a tile or act as a specialist. They have no lifespan, they have no skills or education, and they grow solely based on food. Surplus food goes into a food box and when that box fills up a new population point appears and immediately starts working for the rest of the game, unless killed in a war, or by starvation or some other rare circumstances.
When unhappiness or food limits occur, population growth stops. Housing limits will also stop population growth. Each unit of population, which I will refer to as pop or pop points from now on, is an immortal generalist. There are no demographic issues to really consider. Just keep the pops happy and fed, and everything will work out.
So, I am asking you to throw out your preconceptions of pops from other Civ games and embrace something new. Here is what I suggest.
Basics: First each unit of pop should represent a generational cohort, that is born, has a cultural and religious/ideological identity and will die at some point. They should be able to learn skills and obtain an education. They should have different stages of life, and an exact age and stats. So here is how it would work.
Pop points would live to age 60, counted in turns. However, civics, technology, buildings, and wonders could in theory extend (or shorten) the amount of turns a pop point lived.
Life stages: Pop points have three stages in life, child, adult and elderly. All pop points would normally consume 2 units of food, except in certain cases. The child stage lasts from birth (turn 1) to turn 10. These pops could not work, go to school, or have a place on the map. Nor would pops in the child stage generate a new resource, fertility points, which I will discuss in the next paragraph. On turn 11 of a pop’s life, they would transform into an adult pop. Adults could work a tile, work as specialists, attend school, and the would generate 2 fertility points per turn. On turn 51 a pop point would transform again, from an adult to the elderly. The elderly would not generate fertility points, and while they would maintain all the skills and education of an adult pop point, they would only be half as productive, and cannot learn new skills. So, if an adult would generate four food from a farm, that same pop point would only generate two food from a farm once they turned elderly. On the beginning of turn 61 pop points will die, removing them from the game.
Fertility: Instead of having a food box to determine growth, a fertility box on a per city basis would determine growth. Under normal circumstances it takes 30 fertility points to generate a new population point. Certain civics, technology, buildings, and wonders could in theory reduce or increase the amount of fertility points needed for population growth. Each pop would generate distinct fertility points. So, if a city had only two pops with the same culture and a different religion, when the fertility box filled up it would have 15 units of culture A, religion A, and 15 units of culture A, religion B. The new pop child would have a 100% chance of being culture A, along with a 50% of being religion A and a 50% chance of being religion B. If a city had six pop points, one being culture A, religion A, one being culture A, religion A, one being culture A, religion B, one being culture B, religion C, one being culture B, religion D, and one being culture C, religion E, then the child pop would have a 50% chance of being culture A, approximately a 33% chance of being culture B, and an approximately a 16% chance of being culture C. Then it would have approximately a 33% of being religion A, a 16% chance of being religion B, a 16% chance of being religion C, and a 16% of being religion D, and about a 16% chance of being religion E. So, a new child pop could be culture B, religion E, representing the mixing of different groups.
Skills and education: Pops would gain skills from working in a profession. Each turn, an uneducated adult pop worked the same profession (which in game terms would be a pop that works on an improved tile or as a specialist) then the pop would gain a +10-bonus modifier, which could increase up to 100% for a given profession. Pop could have multiple skills in different professions, for example if a pop worked on a mine, a farm, and a holy site, that pop would have skills in each of those professions. However, that pop would not have any bonus skills working on a plantation, or a ranch, or a fishing boat, or in an encampment for example. Pops could also go to both school and university. This would be different than working as a specialist at those buildings. For four turns an uneducated pop would attend school, though these pop points could be moved around as needed. For example, taken out of school to work on a fishing boat if the circumstance called for it. They would maintain their status, so an uneducated pop with three years in for school for example. When in school a pop would produce nothing, but would still need food, amenities, housing, etc. After four turns that pop would then be an educated pop, which would be a +15% bonus modifier per turn up to an increase of 150% percent. An educated pop could attend university for four turns, again producing nothing, but still needing food and all the other necessities. A highly educated pop would earn a +20% bonus modifier per turn and could have a maximum increase of 200%. So how would this play out? An uneducated, unskilled adult pop on a certain mine would produce two units of a resource. A fully skilled (that skill being working in mines and not a cleric or farmer for this example), highly educated adult pop would produce six units of a resource on that same mine. An uneducated, unskilled elderly pop would only produce one unit of resources on that same mine.
Food and starvation: Since food would be decoupled from growth, it should have a slightly more interesting interaction with pops. So as mentioned before pops, would normally consume two units of food per turn. However, pops should have the ability to consume either one, two, or three food per turn (and occasionally zero food). At two food a turn, everything would be normal with the pop, and it would restore one vigor per turn. I will explain vigor in the next paragraph. At one food per turn, a pop would be famished. It would have negative modifiers to loyalty and productivity. Each turn a pop was famished, it would reduce the pop’s lifespan by one turn. It would also reduce a pop’s vigor by one. At three food per turn, a pop would be satiated. That pop would have positive modifiers to loyalty and productivity. Each turn a pop was satiated it would increase a pop’s lifespan by one turn up to a maximum of 60 turns and would increase a pop’s vigor by five up to the pop’s maximum. Food allocation under normal circumstances would sort all the pops in a city by the raw output of their resources. Either the pop with the highest resource output being first, unless the city had a focus on a particular resource which would make the pop that produced the highest amount of the focus resource first and the pops with the lowest resource output would be last. Civics, technologies, buildings, and wonders could affect the sorting of pops or the allocation of food. Starting from the highest rank in the pop hierarchy, each pop would get one food allocated to them. If every pop had one food, it would start over. If every pop had two food, it would start over. Once every pop had three food allocated to them, and the food was neither allocated to a granary (or if the granary was full) or to a trade route, then it would go to waste and disappear. There would need to be a mechanism to determine the priority for filling granaries (or releasing food from them) as well as fulfilling trade routes.
When a pop did not receive food on a turn, it would be starving. Pops that were starving would temporarily lose 10 turns of vigor per turn and each turn a pop starved, it would reduce the pop’s lifespan by 1 turn. A pop could have a maximum of 30 vigor (with civics, technologies, buildings, and wonders in theory being able to increase or decrease this amount), which would be based on their age, with age 30 being the highest. The further from age 30, in either direction, would lower a pop’s vigor. So, a 20-year-old pop and a 40-year-old pop would both only have 20 vigor. A five-year-old pop and a 55-year-old pop would both only have five vigor. Starvation would kill children and the elderly, normally on the first turn. Most adults could withstand one turn of starvation. Adults close to their prime could stand two turns of starvation. It’s possible an adult in their prime might be able to withstand three turns of starvation. A pop that suffered chronic food shortages could die simply from being famished. Vigor could also work for a disease model, but that is outside the scope of this post. If an 11-year-old, 21-year-old, and 31-year-old pops all experienced a chronic state of being famished, the 31-year-old pop would die 15 turns later at age 46, the 21-year-old pop would die 20 turns later at age 41, and the 11-year-old pop would die 25 turns later at age 36. Though two turns of starvation would kill the 11-year-old pop, but the 21 and 31-year-old pops could survive two turns of starvation.
Other uses: There is something else that pops could help to bridge, which is the unit population divide. Every settler should require one adult pop, except for the starting settler, which should represent a single age 21 adult pop with 20 stored up fertility. Every other unit could use fertility points to build instead of pop, but in addition to strategic resources and production. A warrior may only need one or two points. A Modern Infantry Corps may need five. It’s a feature to use, but I haven’t worked it out yet. The pops contained in a settler should still age. Maybe building a settler requires food too, and or settlers may be able to forage for food along the way. Crossing unused farms would be easy foraging, crossing deserts with nothing to forage would require settlers to carry food or starve.
Final thoughts: When cities are large, like a size 15 city, it would grow by one pop every turn, while a size 30 city would grow by two pops every turn, meanwhile a size one village would take 15 turns to grow. However, the new pops would be children, so there would be a lag in productivity, but an increase in required food, housing, amenities, etc. So after 8 turns a size 30 city, may be size 46; however, depending on the demographics, if some of the highly educated skilled worked turned elderly, some of the elderly working on tiles died, and the children that had aged into adults over those turns were in school, a size 46 city, may actually have worse actual production than a size 30 city. I think that would be interesting. Dealing with these masses could also be an interesting challenge, especially as pop exceeded food production and amenities. Basically, you would have to ensure a Malthusian trap did not bring your civilization down. Pillaging an empire you are about to conquer could leave you with a starving, resentful, unproductive collection of cities. The city tile should not provide extra resources, since it’s no longer required for pop growth. Early on most pops would be farmers. As food growing tech increases it frees up more people for other professions.
The downsides to this idea are it could be an flawed, tedious chore, instead of a deep part of the game. The AI could idiotically misallocate its pop points and starve itself to death. Then, while I would love to try this out as a mod on preferably Civ VI, (though Civ V could possibly work too), implementing this idea is currently impossible for me to do with what little knowledge of modding Civ VI I possess. This idea is so unorthodox for Civ, it may be impossible to put it into the engine as a mod. I do not know. So, it may be a crazy plea to completely uproot Civ VII whenever it comes out, and implement this untested, possibly flawed idea. So the chances of seeing this in game any time soon are slim. However, please let me know what you think. I appreciate your feedback.
Intro: So, this idea is for a wholesale change for how the Civilization series handles population. The scope of the change would be similar to the magnitude of change in going from stacked units to one military unit per tile. Currently, population is measured in discreet units that can occupy a tile or act as a specialist. They have no lifespan, they have no skills or education, and they grow solely based on food. Surplus food goes into a food box and when that box fills up a new population point appears and immediately starts working for the rest of the game, unless killed in a war, or by starvation or some other rare circumstances.
When unhappiness or food limits occur, population growth stops. Housing limits will also stop population growth. Each unit of population, which I will refer to as pop or pop points from now on, is an immortal generalist. There are no demographic issues to really consider. Just keep the pops happy and fed, and everything will work out.
So, I am asking you to throw out your preconceptions of pops from other Civ games and embrace something new. Here is what I suggest.
Basics: First each unit of pop should represent a generational cohort, that is born, has a cultural and religious/ideological identity and will die at some point. They should be able to learn skills and obtain an education. They should have different stages of life, and an exact age and stats. So here is how it would work.
Pop points would live to age 60, counted in turns. However, civics, technology, buildings, and wonders could in theory extend (or shorten) the amount of turns a pop point lived.
Life stages: Pop points have three stages in life, child, adult and elderly. All pop points would normally consume 2 units of food, except in certain cases. The child stage lasts from birth (turn 1) to turn 10. These pops could not work, go to school, or have a place on the map. Nor would pops in the child stage generate a new resource, fertility points, which I will discuss in the next paragraph. On turn 11 of a pop’s life, they would transform into an adult pop. Adults could work a tile, work as specialists, attend school, and the would generate 2 fertility points per turn. On turn 51 a pop point would transform again, from an adult to the elderly. The elderly would not generate fertility points, and while they would maintain all the skills and education of an adult pop point, they would only be half as productive, and cannot learn new skills. So, if an adult would generate four food from a farm, that same pop point would only generate two food from a farm once they turned elderly. On the beginning of turn 61 pop points will die, removing them from the game.
Fertility: Instead of having a food box to determine growth, a fertility box on a per city basis would determine growth. Under normal circumstances it takes 30 fertility points to generate a new population point. Certain civics, technology, buildings, and wonders could in theory reduce or increase the amount of fertility points needed for population growth. Each pop would generate distinct fertility points. So, if a city had only two pops with the same culture and a different religion, when the fertility box filled up it would have 15 units of culture A, religion A, and 15 units of culture A, religion B. The new pop child would have a 100% chance of being culture A, along with a 50% of being religion A and a 50% chance of being religion B. If a city had six pop points, one being culture A, religion A, one being culture A, religion A, one being culture A, religion B, one being culture B, religion C, one being culture B, religion D, and one being culture C, religion E, then the child pop would have a 50% chance of being culture A, approximately a 33% chance of being culture B, and an approximately a 16% chance of being culture C. Then it would have approximately a 33% of being religion A, a 16% chance of being religion B, a 16% chance of being religion C, and a 16% of being religion D, and about a 16% chance of being religion E. So, a new child pop could be culture B, religion E, representing the mixing of different groups.
Skills and education: Pops would gain skills from working in a profession. Each turn, an uneducated adult pop worked the same profession (which in game terms would be a pop that works on an improved tile or as a specialist) then the pop would gain a +10-bonus modifier, which could increase up to 100% for a given profession. Pop could have multiple skills in different professions, for example if a pop worked on a mine, a farm, and a holy site, that pop would have skills in each of those professions. However, that pop would not have any bonus skills working on a plantation, or a ranch, or a fishing boat, or in an encampment for example. Pops could also go to both school and university. This would be different than working as a specialist at those buildings. For four turns an uneducated pop would attend school, though these pop points could be moved around as needed. For example, taken out of school to work on a fishing boat if the circumstance called for it. They would maintain their status, so an uneducated pop with three years in for school for example. When in school a pop would produce nothing, but would still need food, amenities, housing, etc. After four turns that pop would then be an educated pop, which would be a +15% bonus modifier per turn up to an increase of 150% percent. An educated pop could attend university for four turns, again producing nothing, but still needing food and all the other necessities. A highly educated pop would earn a +20% bonus modifier per turn and could have a maximum increase of 200%. So how would this play out? An uneducated, unskilled adult pop on a certain mine would produce two units of a resource. A fully skilled (that skill being working in mines and not a cleric or farmer for this example), highly educated adult pop would produce six units of a resource on that same mine. An uneducated, unskilled elderly pop would only produce one unit of resources on that same mine.
Food and starvation: Since food would be decoupled from growth, it should have a slightly more interesting interaction with pops. So as mentioned before pops, would normally consume two units of food per turn. However, pops should have the ability to consume either one, two, or three food per turn (and occasionally zero food). At two food a turn, everything would be normal with the pop, and it would restore one vigor per turn. I will explain vigor in the next paragraph. At one food per turn, a pop would be famished. It would have negative modifiers to loyalty and productivity. Each turn a pop was famished, it would reduce the pop’s lifespan by one turn. It would also reduce a pop’s vigor by one. At three food per turn, a pop would be satiated. That pop would have positive modifiers to loyalty and productivity. Each turn a pop was satiated it would increase a pop’s lifespan by one turn up to a maximum of 60 turns and would increase a pop’s vigor by five up to the pop’s maximum. Food allocation under normal circumstances would sort all the pops in a city by the raw output of their resources. Either the pop with the highest resource output being first, unless the city had a focus on a particular resource which would make the pop that produced the highest amount of the focus resource first and the pops with the lowest resource output would be last. Civics, technologies, buildings, and wonders could affect the sorting of pops or the allocation of food. Starting from the highest rank in the pop hierarchy, each pop would get one food allocated to them. If every pop had one food, it would start over. If every pop had two food, it would start over. Once every pop had three food allocated to them, and the food was neither allocated to a granary (or if the granary was full) or to a trade route, then it would go to waste and disappear. There would need to be a mechanism to determine the priority for filling granaries (or releasing food from them) as well as fulfilling trade routes.
When a pop did not receive food on a turn, it would be starving. Pops that were starving would temporarily lose 10 turns of vigor per turn and each turn a pop starved, it would reduce the pop’s lifespan by 1 turn. A pop could have a maximum of 30 vigor (with civics, technologies, buildings, and wonders in theory being able to increase or decrease this amount), which would be based on their age, with age 30 being the highest. The further from age 30, in either direction, would lower a pop’s vigor. So, a 20-year-old pop and a 40-year-old pop would both only have 20 vigor. A five-year-old pop and a 55-year-old pop would both only have five vigor. Starvation would kill children and the elderly, normally on the first turn. Most adults could withstand one turn of starvation. Adults close to their prime could stand two turns of starvation. It’s possible an adult in their prime might be able to withstand three turns of starvation. A pop that suffered chronic food shortages could die simply from being famished. Vigor could also work for a disease model, but that is outside the scope of this post. If an 11-year-old, 21-year-old, and 31-year-old pops all experienced a chronic state of being famished, the 31-year-old pop would die 15 turns later at age 46, the 21-year-old pop would die 20 turns later at age 41, and the 11-year-old pop would die 25 turns later at age 36. Though two turns of starvation would kill the 11-year-old pop, but the 21 and 31-year-old pops could survive two turns of starvation.
Other uses: There is something else that pops could help to bridge, which is the unit population divide. Every settler should require one adult pop, except for the starting settler, which should represent a single age 21 adult pop with 20 stored up fertility. Every other unit could use fertility points to build instead of pop, but in addition to strategic resources and production. A warrior may only need one or two points. A Modern Infantry Corps may need five. It’s a feature to use, but I haven’t worked it out yet. The pops contained in a settler should still age. Maybe building a settler requires food too, and or settlers may be able to forage for food along the way. Crossing unused farms would be easy foraging, crossing deserts with nothing to forage would require settlers to carry food or starve.
Final thoughts: When cities are large, like a size 15 city, it would grow by one pop every turn, while a size 30 city would grow by two pops every turn, meanwhile a size one village would take 15 turns to grow. However, the new pops would be children, so there would be a lag in productivity, but an increase in required food, housing, amenities, etc. So after 8 turns a size 30 city, may be size 46; however, depending on the demographics, if some of the highly educated skilled worked turned elderly, some of the elderly working on tiles died, and the children that had aged into adults over those turns were in school, a size 46 city, may actually have worse actual production than a size 30 city. I think that would be interesting. Dealing with these masses could also be an interesting challenge, especially as pop exceeded food production and amenities. Basically, you would have to ensure a Malthusian trap did not bring your civilization down. Pillaging an empire you are about to conquer could leave you with a starving, resentful, unproductive collection of cities. The city tile should not provide extra resources, since it’s no longer required for pop growth. Early on most pops would be farmers. As food growing tech increases it frees up more people for other professions.
The downsides to this idea are it could be an flawed, tedious chore, instead of a deep part of the game. The AI could idiotically misallocate its pop points and starve itself to death. Then, while I would love to try this out as a mod on preferably Civ VI, (though Civ V could possibly work too), implementing this idea is currently impossible for me to do with what little knowledge of modding Civ VI I possess. This idea is so unorthodox for Civ, it may be impossible to put it into the engine as a mod. I do not know. So, it may be a crazy plea to completely uproot Civ VII whenever it comes out, and implement this untested, possibly flawed idea. So the chances of seeing this in game any time soon are slim. However, please let me know what you think. I appreciate your feedback.
Last edited:
