Civ Specific Great Historians

[Enyavar]

I like this whole idea very much and added some names, among them

• Babylonians (actually of Kings who were very invested in their chronicles)
• Phoenicia (Sanchuniathon !)
• Ethiopia (Frumentius was a missionary, but he brought with him the knowledge of foreign countries)
• Indians / Mughals (Kalhana wrote a history of Kashmir; the others I researched via Wikipedia)
  
• HRE (Beda Venerabilis was a monk whom I confused with Hermann of Reichenau - edited!)
• Poland (check out Joachim Lelewel, I think he fits in either early Industrial or late Renaissance)

 

[MechatronicJazz]

HRE (Beda Venerabilits was a monk who wrote a lot about history, also of nearby nations)

Is Beda Venerabilits the same person as The Venerable Bede? I thought Bede was an English monk.

 

[Enyavar]

He SO was an English monk, yes.
Thanks for pointing that out, I confused him with "Hermann of Reichenau" because they both featured in a broadcast I heard recently about the inventors of the "Christian Era"; Hermann was credited there with coming up with the system, and Beda took it and spread it far and wide. Guess which name was easier to remember on the spot.

Mea culpa!

 

[freethink]

Both would be fine. I could prepare a way to add them to the GreatPeople.py file as well.


It's the civ's current era, no date ranges apply. Please judge by the technological state of the civ while the person in question is alive.


Sure, they can focus on whatever, what counts is the society they lived in. Gibbon covered the Roman Empire and many other cultures but he was still a great British historian.

In that case then Iris Chang should be an American rather than a Chinese historian? I am sorry if I am making things complicated. She was a Chinese-American, so I would like to ask what others think about this.

 

[Steb]

In that case then Iris Chang should be an American rather than a Chinese historian? I am sorry if I am making things complicated. She was a Chinese-American, so I would like to ask what others think about this.

She was born in the US and lived there her whole life, so I'd say yes, clearly American.

 

[rmontaruli]

I noticed somebody proposed in the shared spreadsheet the name of John the Deacon as medieval italian historian.

Well, searching for him on wikipedia, there is a disambiguation page with several names.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Deacon
Which John the Deacon is him?

However all those names are late romans, not yet italian, if whe take 1176 as start of italian civ.
So, i don't know if he can be listed as italian historian.

 

[freethink]

She was born in the US and lived there her whole life, so I'd say yes, clearly American.

But much of what she wrote was inspired by her Chinese relatives that had lived most of their lives in China.
I put her in both categories, but I don't want to strip away someone's identity. Its clear her Chinese identity was important to her.

 

[DC123456789]

But much of what she wrote was inspired by her Chinese relatives that had lived most of their lives in China.

I put her in both categories, but I don't want to strip away someone's identity. Its clear her Chinese identity was important to her.

Given Leoreth's criteria, what she wrote about is irrelevant (unless we want to make Gibbon a Roman historian?). What matters is where she was born, lived, and worked, which was the United States.

 

[Publicola]

I noticed somebody proposed in the shared spreadsheet the name of John the Deacon as medieval italian historian.

Well, searching for him on wikipedia, there is a disambiguation page with several names.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Deacon
Which John the Deacon is him?

However all those names are late romans, not yet italian, if whe take 1176 as start of italian civ.
So, i don't know if he can be listed as italian historian.

That was me. I was looking at the Venetian chronicler (here). While it is true that 'medieval Italy' in the game starts after his time, I think he'd still be a valid 'Great Historian' for purposes of this game. We're not really paying careful attention to when individuals lived and died to make sure that they only qualify as a 'Great Historian' during or after their life. Ibn Battuta lived entirely during the 14th century, but I don't think anyone can object to naming him the primary 'Great Historian' for at least the Moors (if not for Arabia and Mali) during the medieval age.

 

[rmontaruli]

That was me. I was looking at the Venetian chronicler (here). While it is true that 'medieval Italy' in the game starts after his time, I think he'd still be a valid 'Great Historian' for purposes of this game. We're not really paying careful attention to when individuals lived and died to make sure that they only qualify as a 'Great Historian' during or after their life. Ibn Battuta lived entirely during the 14th century, but I don't think anyone can object to naming him the primary 'Great Historian' for at least the Moors (if not for Arabia and Mali) during the medieval age.

Well, i don't dispute if he was a great historian, because probably he was.
I'm disputing he can be listed as Italian.
In my opinion a historian or a literate or an artist in general can be called italian if he wrote in a sort of italian language.
The first written in a language not more latin but in an understandableble language to modern italian people, were in Sicily under Frederic II, about 1200AD.
Before that date there is no italian language and therefore no italian historians or so.

 

[Leoreth]

Your takes here continue to be coloured by provincialist chauvinism. I don't know about Italy specifically, and you seem to be applying a nationalist narrative that is unique to Italy, but in fact for most languages it is not at all unusual for its medieval precursor to be incomprehensible to modern speakers, nor would such criteria be applied for historical continuity.

 

[BaneFire]

Your takes here continue to be coloured by provincialist chauvinism. I don't know about Italy specifically, and you seem to be applying a nationalist narrative that is unique to Italy, but in fact for most languages it is not at all unusual for its medieval precursor to be incomprehensible to modern speakers, nor would such criteria be applied for historical continuity.

Isn't Early Modern Venice included as part of the "Italian" civilisation though?

 

[Leoreth]

Yes, but I don't see how this is relevant to this conversation.

 

[brett0007]

Before that date there is no italian language and therefore no italian historians or so.

That argument makes no sense since there isn't technically any one Italian language. Italians speak a group of closely related languages and dialects, Standard Italian is just the Florentine dialect, chosen to be a common language.

 

[Sergey_Kalinin]

Added famous Russian historians from Medieval to Industrial eras. Added (?) to historians i do not know in these eras.

 

[Franz_van_der_Aaagh]

Added couple of Polish and Portuguese historians a week ago or so

 

[borhap88]

I added Salimbene of Parma, who wrote a Chronicle covering the years 1167-1287, as Italian medieval historian.

 

[Leoreth]

I randomly started thinking about this again and rediscovered this thread. Sorry for not following up on it. It may still take some time before I can get to this but I created another note in the 1.18 context. It should be a simple change, actually.

One other thing I stumbled upon is that there are currently only five categories: wealth, tech, power, land, and culture. It seems easy to add more than this. Any ideas on what is missing? My immediate thought would be population.

 

[FraggleJock]

Bloodthirsty; most pop killed recently! have no idea if that's even a thing remembered
Beatific/Tyrannical; happiest or not peoples.

 

[trexeric]

There could be measurements for great people (maybe a combination of the active points being generated plus the civ's history of great people?) and of course espionage output.