Civ VI vs. Marvel's Midnight Suns

[blackbutterfly]

At the risk of being slightly off topic...

Returning to the topic then, I wonder what it would be like to build a Civ game in Unreal? (The game engine).
Presumably it must have crossed Firaxis mind after the XCOM games and Marvel's Midnight Suns.

Your encounters are in a world you build on a map you can generate or make. (Sort of like HUMANKIND actually).
---

Another thing the games have in common: lazy programming.

Over on Steam discussions players lament the final encounter in MMS. The game encourage you to build relationships with heroes throughout the game. Then at the end, when you take out the final big boss, you play with heroes you have the least experience with. Of course gamers are in uproar.

Because it's counter intuitive.

But I can see why Firaxis did this.
It was to make the final mission as challenging as it could. Lazy programming

Not unlike World Congress in Civ VI.
Same.

 

[Kwami]

Another thing the games have in common: lazy programming.

Over on Steam discussions players lament the final encounter in MMS. The game encourage you to build relationships with heroes throughout the game. Then at the end, when you take out the final big boss, you play with heroes you have the least experience with. Of course gamers are in uproar.

Because it's counter intuitive.

But I can see why Firaxis did this.
It was to make the final mission as challenging as it could. Lazy programming

Not unlike World Congress in Civ VI.
Same.

That's not entirely correct. The first phase might use heroes that you've had fewer missions with, but it doesn't seem to actually use the lowest ones. And, you can tag out and get a different hero.

There's also a second phase where it chooses from the heroes that you've had the most missions with.

I don't think it's lazy programming at all.

 

[blackbutterfly]

That's not entirely correct. The first phase might use heroes that you've had fewer missions with, but it doesn't seem to actually use the lowest ones. And, you can tag out and get a different hero.

There's also a second phase where it chooses from the heroes that you've had the most missions with.

I don't think it's lazy programming at all.

A very poor design choice then?

Firaxis is a studio that prides itself in the "It's not a bug, it's a feature" from all the way back in Civ 1: nuclear Gandhi.
This is another commonality between MMS and Civ.

 

[Kwami]

A very poor design choice then?

Maybe?

I don't see the problem, though. It works out fine.

 

[blackbutterfly]

Maybe?

I don't see the problem, though. It works out fine.

But the Hunter hero is basically straight out of Assassins Creed!
How can you deny that is not lazy programming?

 

[Kwami]

But the Hunter hero is basically straight out of Assassins Creed!
How can you deny that is not lazy programming?

Because that has nothing to do with programming? If you mean that some of the Hunter's costumes look like the typical Assassin's Creed costume, then sure, I guess the art might be a bit derivative. In terms of personality and abilities, there's not much overlap except that they both use swords. But, well, so do many other characters?

But none of that is programming.

 

[blackbutterfly]

Because that has nothing to do with programming? If you mean that some of the Hunter's costumes look like the typical Assassin's Creed costume, then sure, I guess the art might be a bit derivative. In terms of personality and abilities, there's not much overlap except that they both use swords. But, well, so do many other characters?

But none of that is programming.

Still lazy.

 

[Kwami]

Still lazy.

Oh, come on. A guy with a hood and swords isn't original to Assassin's Creed, either. It's a pretty typical "assassin" look from all kinds of stories, games, and movies. What a pointless thing to complain about!

 

[blackbutterfly]

Oh, come on. A guy with a hood and swords isn't original to Assassin's Creed, either. It's a pretty typical "assassin" look from all kinds of stories, games, and movies. What a pointless thing to complain about!

Given that the Hunter is the central character, and the one you will be playing, I think it is a very important decision.

I really like that they are gender fluid. As the player might be either and or both. (Woke).
But they could have picked Loki, right?

I am on the last round of the final encounter of the final mission now (so I haven't got to the end) but I don't really see why the Hunter had to be tied to the narrative of Lilith (the big bad).

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Is the Hunter's design a bit tropey? Sure. Is it a lazy design? Maybe, but it's not a direct knock-off of Assassin's Creed. Does this have anything to do with the game engine? None whatsoever.

 

[blackbutterfly]

Is the Hunter's design a bit tropey? Sure. Is it a lazy design? Maybe, but it's not a direct knock-off of Assassin's Creed. Does this have anything to do with the game engine? None whatsoever.

Back on topic, another commonality: card play!

Marvel Midnight Suns uses a card based combat mechanic (for those not in the know) like Civ VI policies


In fact, this might be form a basis for a possible future Civ VII+?

Card based combat system.

 

[Kwami]

I am on the last round of the final encounter of the final mission now (so I haven't got to the end) but I don't really see why the Hunter had to be tied to the narrative of Lilith (the big bad).

Because that's the entire point of the story? What are you actually even complaining about?

 

[blackbutterfly]

Because that's the entire point of the story? What are you actually even complaining about?

Oh I got KO-ed. I was so, so close to finishing. If only I kept a save from a turn ago. I am so pissed RN!

So unfortunately I haven't still got to the end, to be able to comment on this.

Anyway, don't get me wrong, I really love Marvel's Midnight Suns.
It hasn't been received as well as 2K+Firaxis hoped, and I think that's unfair. (Maybe cos I only paid $30 for it on Steam sale).
Over on Steam complaints are mostly about pricing.

Same for Civ:BE.
IMO if it had been priced more competitively I think it would have been more successful.
I mean I play it MP and it is IMO the best Civ MP experience still. RN. Better than Civ VI MP by miles!

 

[Kwami]

Oh I got KO-ed. I was so, so close to finishing. If only I kept a save from a turn ago. I am so pissed RN!

I had my first KO on the third hero of the second phase. I was so mad. The hero went from 100 to 0 in one turn.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Back on topic, another commonality: card play!

Marvel Midnight Suns uses a card based combat mechanic (for those not in the know) like Civ VI policies


In fact, this might be form a basis for a possible future Civ VII+?

Card based combat system.

You're suggesting that they create a set of "moves" for each class of units to perform as attacks, and that on any given turn a random group of those moves is available to choose from? Depending on what move you choose, it could create temporary status effects on the unit, adjacent friendly units, the target enemy, or adjacent enemies?

It's not a terrible idea, to be honest. Will it happen? Maybe. This is already how Apostle promotions work.

 

[Kwami]

You're suggesting that they create a set of "moves" for each class of units to perform as attacks, and that on any given turn a random group of those moves is available to choose from? Depending on what move you choose, it could create temporary status effects on the unit, adjacent friendly units, the target enemy, or adjacent enemies?

It's not a terrible idea, to be honest. Will it happen? Maybe. This is already how Apostle promotions work.

Well, but Apostle promotions only happen once. Having to select one every turn would be really tedious.

And I sure hope that they fix the broken random promotion system in the next game, if they still exist.

 

[blackbutterfly]

You're suggesting that they create a set of "moves" for each class of units to perform as attacks, and that on any given turn a random group of those moves is available to choose from? Depending on what move you choose, it could create temporary status effects on the unit, adjacent friendly units, the target enemy, or adjacent enemies?

It's not a terrible idea, to be honest. Will it happen? Maybe.

Unlike HUMANKIND, Marvel's Midnight Suns isn't an alien (foreign) game from another studio like Amplitude.
This game is from the "other" dev team at Firaxis.

So yes, I am suggesting that.

Each player has the same number of moves, regardless of the number of units. (Avoiding snowball advantage).
Like Civ:BE instead of promotions, units earn veterancy. (Like MMS).
The unique abilities can come from the cards, like they do in Civ VI as promotions. E.g: +1 movement.

Given that Will Miller (co-Lead of Civ:BE) is/was a developer on MMS, I think he is a good candidate for Dev Lead (or co-lead?) of Civ VII.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Well, but Apostle promotions only happen once. Having to select one every turn would be really tedious.

And I sure hope that they fix the broken random promotion system in the next game, if they still exist.

The more I mull it over, the more do-able it seems. Picking an attack from one of three choices is not much more tedious than just clicking "attack" each turn, and it would add strategic value. Some "moves" could be set as reactions to attendant status affects, and only come available when that triggering status effect is in play. This would revolutionize the combat system almost as much as adding 1upt did. However, one must then ask whether the AI can utilize it correctly.

 

[tedhebert]

Honestly, to me the hunter costumes are much closer to how Moon Knight looks in the Disney+ series than assassin creed… even the logo/crest bears a resemblance

 

[blackbutterfly]

The more I mull it over, the more do-able it seems.

Yes. Though presumably you haven't tried Marvel's Midnight Suns yet?

I totally recommend it.
Steam had a free-to-play weekend and that's where I had a go.

Definitely keep an eye out for the next one!
Apparently Spring Sale is also around the corner.

Regardless IMO XCOM/MMS is definitely going to influence future Civ one way or another.

I had my first KO on the third hero of the second phase. I was so mad. The hero went from 100 to 0 in one turn.

Bummer.

Another commonality is both games are turn based strategy.
Great for if you need to take a leak, get a refill or whatever. For me, I cook (and do other household chores) while playing so it's crucial. This is how I make time to play.
You can't do that with RTS, like HUMANKIND for example.

So anyway, I can reload an earlier autosave. But I have to spend another day in the Abbey
(It's a bit boring, especially on a second playthrough, I imagine).
But I think I just might be able to finish this weekend