mtrein
Chieftain
Hehe, how about starting a rant thread on not liking moderation...
You can't comment any moderator actions because they are always flawless and perfect.
Hehe, how about starting a rant thread on not liking moderation...
No its a defacto truth that airlifting causes more micromanagement hell. Setting a rally point for selected cities requires one alt click, to group a stack for group movement regardless of stack size requires 2 clicks, compare that to airlifting which needs 3 clicks for every units (1 to select, one on airlift button, 1 on destination.ShuShu62 said:Uh... that would be true if each rallied troop automatically embarked on its transport...
Well transports are a stack in their own right and can be controlled like any other so I don't see how multiple transports woud cause any difficulties?Also... if the troops are small enough it only takes one click to group and one click to embark the rally pointed troops, but if your stack is bigger than the transport.... well... more clicks baby. And don't get me started on more than one transport.
But that is not the point is it.
Nor is the point that 1upt requires more troop management (debatable because of scale -- i.e. 20 upt's are easier to manage than 20 stacks with 60 reinforcements in perpetual motion).
Yes I said something like that, but your misquoting and taking it out of context. I was talking about airlifting (which you oddly seem to want to defend), which as I have already explained was a stupid problem to have, not embarkation or transports.The point is that transports made overseas adventures much more tedious. You made the point yourself that automatic embarkation with rally points would greatly simplify the tedium (last sentence in your quote).
The post you made cited transports for causing lots of micro, which isn't true, and while the airlift mechanism has some similarities with civ 5 embarkation they are largely superficial both in gameplay and suspension of disbelief terms.My point was that the poster claiming to be a loyal civ fan bought BTS after civ 5.... I know we have had blood lettings over the definition of 'true civ fan' but BTS after civ 5 is pushing the limits for even my definition.... was complaining about auto-embarkation despite its presence in the civ version he held up as an example.
While Ghpstage is obviously right that Civ 5 requires MUCH more troop micromanagement than Civ 4 (with much fewer units!), for me that isn't even the point. I rather find it pretty baffeling, Shushu, that you refer to the logistical accomplishment of raising a fleet and preparing an oversea invasion as "tedious micromanagement". I mean do you know what kind of game you are playing? With this logic, why choose techs to research or buildings to build? Tedious micromanagement. Why move your troops at all? Auto-resolved battles mean much less tedious micromanagement.
No, if preparing a naval invasion turns into "just hop your units into the water and swim forth", that is, by far, too little micromanagement, and completely takes away any of the former logistical efforts one had to rightly so achieve in planning, preparing and launching an oversea attack. This change alone, while in itself rather minor compared to the other glaring problems of the game, is a travesty and exemplifies the philosophy of the designers of simplifying the game till only a thin shell of what once was a great series is left.
They coud have at least used a method similar to what other tactical war games use, making it so that unit can only enter the water at certain locations such a cities and ports. That way it wouldn't completely remove the logistics as you wouldn't be able to just jump in and swim anywhere and would need to defend your ports.Thing is, once they decided to go 1upt, transports didn't make sense so they had to find a way around it. Historically accurate? No, and I can understand if that kind of thing might bother someone. But, as a game mechanic, I prefer it over transports. I hated having to build those things.
To me the logjamming can be split into two types,Interesting idea as I haven't played any tactical war games, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem that if there are complaints about ocean travel logjams due to the limitations of 1upt, that would jam it up even more significantly (particularly if the city only has one adjacent ocean tile).
... you refer to the logistical accomplishment of raising a fleet and preparing an oversea invasion as "tedious micromanagement". ....
Why move your troops at all? Auto-resolved battles mean much less tedious micromanagement...
7. 1 unit per tile. I'm sure you saw this one coming. So frustrating. Why bother even having an army? Just garrison one archer in your city and forget about it. Yes stacks of doom suck, but what would be wrong with limiting the stack to maybe 3? Then at least you could stack units that have different defensive bonuses together. And what possible reason could there be for not allowing stacked workers?
You are correct. why have Rally points. In fact why have path finding. No wait, you should have to drive every boat across every square, otherwise... what's the point, it is just too unrealistic.
I don't quite get what you are comparing. Rally points and path finding, which by the way neither are "unrealistic", both help the player control his troops with less - pointless - clicks. I'm sorry, but the "stupid transports", as you put it, were and are an essential part of any oversea attack in history of mankind, and the logistical efforts involved in building and using them had to be taken into consideration by any given power. This is an entirely different entity than in your comparison. The player is forced to give naval invasions more thought and consideration, just as in real life, since in real life leaders couldn't just throw their troops into the ocean and watch them swim towards their enemies.
While a lot of gamers do indeed seem to be rooting for the, "press X to be awesome!" trend, there are a great deal too who like to do things by themselves.
It isn't a gamer preference, but rather a shift in the market. There are still plenty of gamers who enjoy complex games, but money is in the mainstream. Much like how movies and music is dumbed down for the masses, gaming follows the same trend.
The only thing we can do is hope either A. Our favorite game producers are able to find decent compromises or not totally give in to market demands or B. Indi developers gain the funding and technology to offer competitive options for those of us not interested in mainstream direction.
I apologize as this post is not really a rant against Civilization 5.
I have noticed with deep regret that Paradox has decided to make EU4 a Steam exclusive. You can buy it from other vendors but you must use Steam. Very poor decision which makes it extremely unlikely to buy EU4.
So, in effect, Civilization 5 looks a little better in comparison.