Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ

Moderator Action: This thread is getting terribly off-topic, so I am unsticking it.
@2K Greg: if you wish to open another thread restricted to questions, please do so - we will need to strictly enforce a questions only policy in such a thread from the get go. I do not believe that its possible or indeed helpful to cull all the ongoing discussion from this thread.
 
It's no problem; I was going to suggest doing the same. All of the questions that have been coming up in the last many pages have all been repeats anyway; I definitely have an understanding of the core concerns people have. Thanks for stickying it in the first place. :)
 
This is in a nutshell the core reason why I will probably never see Civ5 on a computer owned by me. I will NEVER allow a third party software like steam to run on my PC collecting information when I have sensitive information stored on it relating to my work. It is surprising so many headlessly install and use Steam without thinking about the risks involved in allowing a third party to gain access to your PC with what i can only describe as spyware.

Steam isn't spyware. What you're doing is like worrying about being phished by Turbo Tax.
 
How and what information?

Nothing serious at the moment. Right now it has been said by the SSS to collect game data (what level your player is, how you play your game, etc), and they have opt-in questionnaires you can do.

But Valve has said themselves that Steam is an extensive Data-Mining platform; they have gone on about microtransaction information; EULA allows them to give 'aggregrate info' to anyone they want if they choose to grab it.

Huge money market for info like this, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when...

They will likely collect demographic information from consumers (there is high-probability this is what they will do from statements Vavle has made) in order to 'combat piracy' and 'offer better services'. Demographic info would be stuff like where you live, sex, race, age, income, employment, education, etc... Of course, those are just demographics examples, they would probably collect only what they need, and if they decide to sell aggregrate information, they could possibly collect other info.

These demographics, along with game information they collect, would be used also on Steam so they know what advertisements of games to smack you with to maximize chances of a purchase. Valve has Psychologists that they have hired to study the brainwaves of gamers and maximize their success. Nothing wrong with that, just a bit on the extremely strange side of things.

Bottom line, this is the way they have said that they can 'beat piracy'. So just a matter of time.
 
How and what information?

How? Not really known, most probably by scanning your system.
What? Information about your hardware and software, which may be delivered to Steam.

(The latter is not part of the hardware survey, to which you must agree, but part of Steam's "crash reports")

So, at least if there shoud occur a crash (or whatever Steam understands to be a crash [= malfunction of their software and/or the game being started and run by it]) the Steam client may run an investigation of your system and report it's findings to Steam.

Since this may not be very successful in case of the Steam client has crashed, my personal assumption is that such system scan is run when the Steam client is properly working (which most probably then [under this assumption] would be each time).
In any way, there seems to be no further authentication be needed, as you had to agree to this kind of procedure when accepting Steam's terms of service (EULA, privacy policy, whatnotever).

Yet, this is my assumption, based on my understanding how such a system scan in case of a crashed Steam client can work in a reliable way.

Anything which I may have missed for sure will be corrected by the band of internationally acknowledged lawyers and business specialists and software specialists and closest friends to the owner of Valve/Steam (the infamous Steam Sunshine Squad [SSS]), which although not having any connection (this is very important!) with or to Steam/Valve, nevertheless spare some minutes of their restricted private time to "inform" future customers of Steam and payers for DLC about the many benefits of opening your system to Steam, as there is:
a)
b)
c)
d)
and much less. :p
 
Nothing serious at the moment. Right now it has been said by the SSS to collect game data (what level your player is, how you play your game, etc), and they have opt-in questionnaires you can do.

But Valve has said themselves that Steam is an extensive Data-Mining platform; they have gone on about microtransaction information; EULA allows them to give 'aggregrate info' to anyone they want if they choose to grab it.

Huge money market for info like this, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when...

They will likely collect demographic information from consumers (there is high-probability this is what they will do from statements Vavle has made) in order to 'combat piracy' and 'offer better services'. Demographic info would be stuff like where you live, sex, race, age, income, employment, education, etc... Of course, those are just demographics examples, they would probably collect only what they need, and if they decide to sell aggregrate information, they could possibly collect other info.

These demographics, along with game information they collect, would be used also on Steam so they know what advertisements of games to smack you with to maximize chances of a purchase. Valve has Psychologists that they have hired to study the brainwaves of gamers and maximize their success. Nothing wrong with that, just a bit on the extremely strange side of things.

Bottom line, this is the way they have said that they can 'beat piracy'. So just a matter of time.
That statement unfortunately makes you seem like a marijuana smoking TINFOIL libertarian kook

Moderator Action: Flaming - warned
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
How and what information [is steam actively collecting]?
We don't know all they're collecting.

Back on 14 May Elizabeth 2k said "I know what Steam can collect for you (as you do, it's publicly available what they can collect!)..." but when asked for that info and/or a link to where it's publicly available the only reply has been "You guys are asking for pretty specific details about Steam beyond what I know - their collection and privacy policies are what are publicly available (what you linked) and give a good overview of the scope of what they require, what is optional, and what they monitor. For those of you who want more, I have to ask Valve."

So far no further information has been provided (by Elizabeth 2k anyways, and I haven't seen it from anyone else -- if I've missed it my apologies and please to point me in the right direction).

The links that she mentions my posting are Valve's Privacy Policy and Steamworks API Overview.

From Valve's Privacy Policy we see that Valve collects "Aggregate information", "Individual information", and "Personally identifiable information". Personally identifiable information "...consists of a user's name, email address, physical address, or other data about the user that enables the recipient to personally identify the user." [emphasis mine]

Note the incomplete and open-ended definition of "Personally identifiable information". Some idea of what some of the unspecified information collected can be gleaned by perusing the API Overview link. As for the rest, we don't know.

"Personally identifiable information" is shared with unspecified third parties:
"Valve may allow third parties performing services under contract with Valve to access stored information but such access shall only be to the extent necessary to provide those services. In those instances, the third party will be bound by the terms of this privacy policy."

It will also be shared with 'associates':
"Personally identifiable information protected under this privacy policy and collected from users may be done in conjunction with associates under agreement with Valve... When possible, Valve will make a reasonable effort to direct users to the privacy polices of these associates. Valve's privacy policy does not extend to associates of Valve."

So Valve collects personally identifiable information, they don't specify exactly what personally identifiable information they collect other than the obvious unobjectionable bits, they share said personally identifiable information with both third parties and associates, and the latter aren't bound by Valve's privacy policy.

Knowing exactly what personally identifiable information is collected, who it's shared with, and what uses it's put to is -- as it's been at least 5.5 weeks since this was broached -- either very hard or impossible for 2k to discover and tell us.

Transparency is a good thing. Asking what personally identifiable information is collected, who it's shared with, and what uses it's put to seems to be a fairly simple and reasonable request, and why it wouldn't be answered is somewhat bewildering.
 
Steam collects information, then groups it into the three mentioned catagories. It doesn't hunt down different kinds, but only what you give it. If you fill out a survey, it will take that information, then seperate it into those 3 groups. It also takes note of your hardware, such as graphics, CPU, ect. I am unaware if it takes credit card information, and then seperates it into these three groups.

Beyond that, there is no evidence that steam is collecting private files with names, bank accounts, letters, emails, what your web history is, if you wrote a poem ect ect. I do not have such types of files or folders on my pc currently, so I am not worried about this type of abuse. As for steam targeting me with ads for games or spam emails or anything of that nature, good luck. As of right now I am constantly bombarded with commercials, ads, and all means of other advertisments. I have spent my life dealing and trying to ignore such things. The only thing steam can do to influence me into buying a game is lowering the price to below $10. Beyond that I will make my own choices, thank you.
 
Steam collects information, then groups it into the three mentioned catagories. It doesn't hunt down different kinds, but only what you give it. If you fill out a survey, it will take that information, then seperate it into those 3 groups. It also takes note of your hardware, such as graphics, CPU, ect. I am unaware if it takes credit card information, and then seperates it into these three groups.
The Valve pages I linked to in my previous post show that your "...but only what you give it." is incorrect. Check out the API Overview page to see some of what it actively collects without an opt-out option.

If you know more than is presented in those 2 links please to provide us with either your source(s) or your bona fides.

Beyond that, there is no evidence that steam is collecting private files with names, bank accounts, letters, emails, what your web history is, if you wrote a poem ect ect.
I don't think it is either. My guess is (and it's a guess because they don't say) they just look at steam and game related files, as shown by Steam game file fragmentation automatically detected and fixed:
"Our on-going goal with Steam is to improve the service we offer customers. One example of this is work we've done on performance optimization of level loads. By using information gathered from Steam clients, we found that the problem was actually the result of fragmented game cache files. Steam will now automatically detect and correct fragmentation, giving performance improvements on cache accesses of up to 600%. Rather than having to guess or estimate performance bottle-necks, Steam gave us the ability to precisely solve the real-world problem."

It doesn't specifically say but the post suggests they were collecting/analyzing info on those files before it was announced they were doing this. If I'm wrong about that please to correct me.

While I think they're not searching out private files/etc., Valve could be compiling quite a dossier on us -- IP address tells a lot, # hours played, types of games, times of day played, info in messages we send across their service, etc. And Civ5's in-game browser allows the potential, depending on how it's done of course, to collect a lot of out-of-game information. If we can use the browser to do regular browsing then we're also looking at all the information that that makes available (and for which many companies are expending a lot of effort to collect and pay big $ for). Will there be cookies or LSO's? Are search terms collected? Will sites visited be recorded? etc. I'm not saying it'll be like that, just pointing out possibilities.

Assuming Valve would not consider this lucrative revenue source is an act of faith, especially given Newell's desire to, well here's a report on this:
"-Video game companies acting as "entertainment companies": Newell said he is "obsessing" over gamers' expectations for "what kind of entertainment company they want us to be." They are fans of properties, not forms of entertainment, fans, to use his example, of Harry Potter, as opposed to just Potter books or just Potter movies. As a result, he said he is moving away from thinking of Valve as a video game company. One example is the introduction of "Team Fortress 2" video shorts made by Valve. The next will be that same team's "TF2" comics." (emphasis mine)

So one of his goals is to expand from just video games to become an entertainment company.
 
"Our on-going goal with Steam is to improve the service we offer customers. One example of this is work we've done on performance optimization of level loads. By using information gathered from Steam clients, we found that the problem was actually the result of fragmented game cache files. Steam will now automatically detect and correct fragmentation, giving performance improvements on cache accesses of up to 600%. Rather than having to guess or estimate performance bottle-necks, Steam gave us the ability to precisely solve the real-world problem."

So Steam Defrags your hard drive also? :lol: Steam should just replace Windows for crying out loud.

These demographics, along with game information they collect, would be used also on Steam so they know what advertisements of games to smack you with to maximize chances of a purchase. Valve has Psychologists that they have hired to study the brainwaves of gamers and maximize their success. Nothing wrong with that, just a bit on the extremely strange side of things.

This is all true. The main use for collecting information is to make money. They can make money with consumer demographics by selling it and by using it to improve advertising services.

Here is one:
Mike Ambinder
Experimental Psychologist
Valve
Mike has a B.A. in Computer Science and Psychology from Yale and a PhD in Psychology from the University of Illinois.

He says he has a Vague Job Description. I bet he does!
 
How exactly do they collect data on gamers' brainwaves?
 
Through your mouse. Duh!

So switch to using your mouse left-handed, that'll confuse the hell out of them.
 
Basically its hard to measure how much fun and immersion someone is experiencing without asking them and interrupting. You could maybe do some stuff with heartbeat or eye movements or something but to directly observe the brain would be a better way to determine success.
 
How exactly do they collect data on gamers' brainwaves?
I haven't seen any mention of valve doing this (tho that doesn't mean much as I'm not involved in the industry).

The only mention I've seen regarding valve and a psychologist is reports from Newell's keyhnote address to DICE 2009 where he's been paraphrased as saying "Valve has hired an experimental psychologist to come up with new ways to excite users with pricing models and sales. He suggested one in 25 users that buy Left 4 Dead get another Valve game for free."

and from another article on DICE 2009:
"Newell added that Valve has hired an experimental psychologist to explore more unconventional sales tactics. He joked that the move was “turning us to the dark side of B.F. Skinner...”

There are other interesting tidbits from these 2 reports:
"Valve aims to touch its customers in some way every three weeks, not every three years when a new game is shipped."

"As far as privacy goes, Gabe believes that people are willing to give up system and personal information if they feel it's being used to get a better service. Steam's hardware survey is an example of this. Rather than spying on users for nefarious reasons, Gabe believes things like its hardware survey helps with better sales of products and service. As long as companies are transparent, he feels that customers will accept this."

"By using the service’s strengths such as extensive data-mining capabilities, the company can be given a competitive advantage. Newell warned, however, that intrusive measures must be transparent and can be proven to give the customer better service or better games."

If he believes in transparency perhaps he'll tell us what specific personally identifiable information is collected, who it's shared with, and what uses it's put to.

"With Team Fortress 2, Valve shipped the game as a service and not a product."

"Right now, those two social networks [Facebook and MySpace] are sources of interesting features, but not quite right for a partnership currently."

"Perhaps Newell’s grandest vision of them all was the evolution of game companies into more general “entertainment companies.” He reckoned that most consumers were similar to Harry Potter fans, who are fans of the entire franchise and not just the books or just the movies. To that end, Newell intends to take Valve in the “entertainment” direction. The studio tested the waters with Team Fortress 2 animated shorts using the game’s characters. The house that made those shorts will be making TF2 comics in the near future, Newell announced."

"the winner of the next-generation console war won’t be whichever box has the best graphics, but rather which machine allows game companies “to have this relationship with your customers.”

And from MTV Multiplayer:
"Video game companies acting as "entertainment companies": Newell said he is "obsessing" over gamers' expectations for "what kind of entertainment company they want us to be." They are fans of properties, not forms of entertainment, fans, to use his example, of Harry Potter, as opposed to just Potter books or just Potter movies. As a result, he said he is moving away from thinking of Valve as a video game company. One example is the introduction of "Team Fortress 2" video shorts made by Valve. The next will be that same team's "TF2" comics."

----------------------
Positive news:
"During the Holiday sales... At 75% off, they are making 15% more money than they were at full price."

----------------

From all this it's clear that steam being required even for single-player offline Civ5 games isn't an 'accident', but it's the goal -- steam needs to be installed and running in the background as often as possible for valve's desired goals as described above -- extensive data-mining, offering us advertising as often as possible, 'touching' us at least every 3 weeks, becoming an 'entertainment company' not merely a video game company, and possibly a partnership with the likes of Facebook and MySpace someday.
 
By the way... the last week of June, 2010 has just begun.

Do we have any news on the release of the FAQs?
And where will it be released?
 
It'll be released here, in a new thread. It'll probably also go on the official webpage.

Whether or not it'll make my "end if June" estimate is... well, we'll just have to see :blush:
 
It'll be released here, in a new thread. It'll probably also go on the official webpage.

Whether or not it'll make my "end if June" estimate is... well, we'll just have to see :blush:
"the enemy of good is better"
While I am loath to demand that a freely given date be met, I fear that if we are kept waiting until you are satisfied with your FAQ, we will seeing the game released first.
PLEASE, post what you have ready before the end of the month, as promised, for your credibility sake. Tell us honestly which questions you can answer, which you can't answer because you can't find out, and which you can't answer because the answer will be unpopular.
I am hopeful there will be none of the later, but the longer you delay the answers the more likely that becomes, as it is difficult to believe that the basic questions asked have no answers 90 days before release.
 
(...) I fear that if we are kept waiting until you are satisfied with your FAQ, we will seeing the game released first.
Very well put.

Greg, we all do understand that some questions will touch topics which are not yet to be revealed. We may not like this fact, but we know that this is just the case.

But meanwhile, your credibility starts taking damage.
Many, if not most of the questions were just about the expected policies of 2K/Firaxis and/or Steam.
Please, don't tell us that your company is not aware of such policy issues and does not yet have any answers to such questions. Regardless of any technical issues and regardless of liking the answer or not, the assumption that you (you = your company) is not able to answer those questions now makes people wonder if such a company can be seen as trustworthy.

I am working for an big, international company, too and I promise, 90 per cent of the questions raised in this thread our company could have answered within a week (and yes, I would have to get into contact with our developers, too - and guess what, I am constantly doing so and although they are very busy, I am able to get answers within just some days).
 
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