Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ

[Senethro]

Valve still sells games but Commander Bello is correct, and your disagreeing with him regarding that is yet another point you're wrong about.

Notes from Newell's keynote address to DICE 2009 from MTV Multiplayer: Video game companies acting as "entertainment companies": Newell said he is "obsessing" over gamers' expectations for "what kind of entertainment company they want us to be." They are fans of properties, not forms of entertainment, fans, to use his example, of Harry Potter, as opposed to just Potter books or just Potter movies. As a result, he said he is moving away from thinking of Valve as a video game company. One example is the introduction of "Team Fortress 2" video shorts made by Valve. The next will be that same team's "TF2" comics.

Newell is transitioning valve from a video game company to a company that provides "entertainment as a service".

Further, from Geek.com's coverage of that same keynote address:
"Perhaps Newell’s grandest vision of them all was the evolution of game companies into more general “entertainment companies.” He reckoned that most consumers were similar to Harry Potter fans, who are fans of the entire franchise and not just the books or just the movies. To that end, Newell intends to take Valve in the “entertainment” direction. The studio tested the waters with Team Fortress 2 animated shorts using the game’s characters. The house that made those shorts will be making TF2 comics in the near future, Newell announced."

I know you'll want to argue this, but take it up with Newell, as he's the one who disagrees with you.

What does entertainment as a service have to do with collecting data? Your post is pointless.

 

[Nick Danger]

The full version says that if 3rd parties collect PII...

No it says "...Personally identifiable information protected under this privacy policy and collected from users may be done in conjunction with associates..." -- _in conjunction with_ valve, not separately.

Oops!

So in fact it says nothing like what you want it to.

It means exactly what I said it does.

Readers can decide for themselves what they think it means (The bolded parts are what I quoted):

Personally identifiable information protected under this privacy policy and collected from users may be done in conjunction with associates under agreement with Valve. If an associate of Valve is collecting such personally identifiable information within one of our products or online sites, Valve will make users aware of this at the time the information is gathered. For example, product registration data for Half-Life is collected by Sierra Entertainment. If a user does not want to provide this information, the user may choose to opt out of providing this information. Additionally, if providing the information is a requirement of usage, the user may decline to use that particular service or product. When possible, Valve will make a reasonable effort to direct users to the privacy polices of these associates. Valve's privacy policy does not extend to associates of Valve.

If you think theres any cause for doubt that this is the case, you should show your sources before we should even start thinking it might be otherwise.

You said "I said Valve's business was more about selling games than information". I asked for your source. You evade and claim you don't have to back it up -- and instead that I have to back up my challenge!

You claim to have a science background/job. In science the person who makes a claim is the one to back it up.

I didn't make up that rule, it's how science works. Rhetoric works the same.

You make a claim, you back it up, else we'll conclude you made it up.

Because unless you voluntarily give Valve information or wish to imply that they are illegally stealing it from your computer, I don't see what information of harm is being transferred.

First, this is the fallacious argument Non Sequitur -- whether there's 'harm' is unrelated to the issue of 'voluntaryness'.

Second, as we don't know what PII they collect we can't comment on whether it's harmful or not, as you attempt.

No its not and only simple minds that think in absolutes think otherwise.

The relative importance of "...selling games vs. selling information about how a product was received to Valve?" is a distraction from the point that valve does collect undefined/unspecified aggregate, individual, and PII, and that we don't know who it's shared with or what purposes it's put to, and that is a concern to some of us.

That's why it's a red herring.

No, I still don't get it. Tell me how I'm lying to you.

Strawman. I didn't call you a liar, I said "...you're ignoring facts known by you (that valve's definition of what they collect is open ended) and cherry-picking (in this case the innocuous voluntary survey) to present a false picture. You're putting more effort into defending valve (often by presenting incomplete or downright false info)..."

You're the cherrypicker...

This is the argument "I know you are but what am I".

If you don't give, they won't have.

This is the fallacious Argument Ad Nauseam -- you keep repeating things that have been proven wrong, in the hope that by repeating it enough it'll come to be accepted.

 

[Nick Danger]

IPs, email addresses yes, but what else must a user give them?

Strawman.

It's what unspecified PII they collect, who they share it with, and what uses it's put to.

Now, how about telling what other information Valve have as part of owning a steam account?

That's what we're asking -- what unspecified PII they collect, who they share it with, and what uses it's put to.

Valve can define PII however they like, they don't necessarily have it or collect it.

We're asking how they define PII, what they collect, who they share it with, and what uses it's put to.

You're going to have to show more clearly where Valve shares PII with third parties

"Personally identifiable information will be processed and stored by Valve in databases situated in the United States. Valve may allow third parties performing services under contract with Valve to access stored information but such access shall only be to the extent necessary to provide those services."

 

[Nick Danger]

What does entertainment as a service have to do with collecting data?

Strawman.

What the entertainment-as-a-service thing "...have to do with..." is you being wrong when you said Commander Bellow was wrong -- Bello was right, and the links I provided are proof.

 

[2K Greg]

Hi Greg,

I dont know if your still knocking up that FAQ but can you tell me when steam will release the game to download eg will it be on the release date or the day before or a week before etc..

By the way i like steam never had any probs with it and ive been using it for years

It will release on Steam the same day as it will be available in stores: September 21 in North America, and September 24 worldwide.

 

[Senethro]

Strawman.

It's what unspecified PII they collect, who they share it with, and what uses it's put to.

That's what we're asking -- what unspecified PII they collect, who they share it with, and what uses it's put to.

We're asking how they define PII, what they collect, who they share it with, and what uses it's put to.

You're not getting it. Valve doesn't have my info except for a list of IPs I've connected from and my email address and I'm a regular Steam user.

"Personally identifiable information will be processed and stored by Valve in databases situated in the United States. Valve may allow third parties performing services under contract with Valve to access stored information but such access shall only be to the extent necessary to provide those services."

Oh I'm sorry, you seem to have forgotten this immediately following line!
"In those instances, the third party will be bound by the terms of this privacy policy."
Nice cherry picking.

 

[Senethro]

No it says "...Personally identifiable information protected under this privacy policy and collected from users may be done in conjunction with associates..." -- _in conjunction with_ valve, not separately.

Oops!

It means exactly what I said it does.

Readers can decide for themselves what they think it means (The bolded parts are what I quoted):

Personally identifiable information protected under this privacy policy and collected from users may be done in conjunction with associates under agreement with Valve. If an associate of Valve is collecting such personally identifiable information within one of our products or online sites, Valve will make users aware of this at the time the information is gathered. For example, product registration data for Half-Life is collected by Sierra Entertainment. If a user does not want to provide this information, the user may choose to opt out of providing this information. Additionally, if providing the information is a requirement of usage, the user may decline to use that particular service or product. When possible, Valve will make a reasonable effort to direct users to the privacy polices of these associates. Valve's privacy policy does not extend to associates of Valve.

Doesn't read that way to me. What can I say?

You said "I said Valve's business was more about selling games than information". I asked for your source. You evade and claim you don't have to back it up -- and instead that I have to back up my challenge!

You claim to have a science background/job. In science the person who makes a claim is the one to back it up.

I didn't make up that rule, it's how science works. Rhetoric works the same.

You make a claim, you back it up, else we'll conclude you made it up.

Incorrect. There are a great many possible hypotheses here. I suggested the hopefully non-controversial one that Valve is primarily about selling games. However, if I cannot prove this (and I can't conclusively because I don't have access to Valve's financial details as they are a privately owned company. You'll have to ask Gabe) then it doesn't automatically mean that they are primarily about selling information. You have to show that they are about selling customer information instead of the equally viable hypotheses that they sell fish, cocktail sticks, or love.

So, as I can't do better currently, heres some limited value evidence that Valve primarily are about selling games: store.steampowered.com.

-snip-

The rest of your post is missing my point.

Valve doesn't have my information beyond IP and email address because I haven't given it to them. They have no way of getting it, except by spuriously legal means like uploading my hard disk.

Now what?

 

[Nick Danger]

...Valve doesn't have my info except for a list of IPs I've connected from and my email address and I'm a regular Steam user.

Since we don't know what info valve collects you're just making stuff up.

Oh I'm sorry, you seem to have forgotten this immediately following line!
"In those instances, the third party will be bound by the terms of this privacy policy."

This is the fallacious argument Moving the Goalposts.

You said: "You're going to have to show more clearly where Valve shares PII with third parties "

I 'showed you more clearly' just that by quoting (and linking to) valve's privacy page where it says: "Personally identifiable information will be processed and stored by Valve in databases situated in the United States. Valve may allow third parties performing services under contract with Valve to access stored information but such access shall only be to the extent necessary to provide those services."

You then come back with an irrelevant bit, changing what you asked, as if that negated my answering what you did ask.

Oops!

 

[mattcrwi]

It will release on Steam the same day as it will be available in stores: September 21 in North America, and September 24 worldwide.

This is nitpicking but can you say whether it will be able to be preloaded before the 21st and then unlocked on the 21st or will everyone have to download it at the same time on the 21st?

 

[Nick Danger]

...However, if I cannot prove this (and I can't conclusively because I don't have access to Valve's financial details as they are a privately owned company. You'll have to ask Gabe)...

This is what you should have replied when I first challenged your statement, instead of saying "If you think theres any cause for doubt that this is the case, you should show your sources before we should even start thinking it might be otherwise."

When you make a claim it's up to you to back it up -- that's how science works. You don't evade and ask your challenger to do what you are unable and/or unwilling to do -- back it up.

It's clear, especially from this but also from the plethora of Strawman, Non Sequitur, Red Herring, Moving the Goalpost, Cherry-Picking, etc., and that even after being corrected you continue to repeat discredited claims, etc., that you're not interested in an open and accurate discussion. Your interest is to 'win at all costs'.

Being responded to is a privilege not a right, and by your behavior you've forfeited said privilege.

And, as repeatedly laying out facts and correcting your incorrect and/or fallacious arguments is obviously fruitless...

I'm guessing you'll call this a victory, and my response to that is...

Enjoy!

Nick out...

 

[Senethro]

You're guilty of all that yourself but by all means try to claim the moral high ground. Your persistent habit of splitting arguments and applying fallacies to the components without reference to the whole shows your bad faith.

Given that a brief google of you shows you often gripe about Steam on forums, I'm sure this won't be the last time we see you.

 

[mattcrwi]

Advertising companies already have everything valve might be collecting. Browsing habits, purchase history ect. If you don't like being in a place where your PII is freely available I suggest disconnecting from the internet.

Especially never use a service from Google. They are 10x worse. Giving you email service for an advertisement about those emails. GASP! or in any other of their services.

 

[Zoolooman]

Yes, source would be nice to confirm the statement by Zoolooman.

I have no reason to lie.

I go by the Privacy Policy on this one.

"Aggregate information" is information that describes the habits, usage patterns, and demographics of users as a group but does not describe or reveal the identity of any particular user.

-- Most large retailers collect aggregate info through purchases. The credit card company DEFINITELY collects aggregate info as well.

"Individual information" is information about a user that is presented in a form distinguishable from information relating to other users but not in a form that personally identifies any user or enables the recipient to communicate directly with any user unless agreed to by the user in advance of such communication. This information may be used to improve Valve's products and online sites, for internal marketing studies, or simply to collect demographic information about Valve's users.

-- This is all that account-specific stuff they track about your playtime, achievements, purchase history, and so forth. The idea is that they can't identify YOU per the privacy policy, but they can identify that there is a customer with your behavior.

"Personally identifiable information" consists of a user's name, email address, physical address, or other data about the user that enables the recipient to personally identify the user.

-- This is the stuff that the privacy policy protects. You have to volunteer for this information to be distributed by Valve to a third party. License agreements don't contain clauses to volunteer this stuff. So far, only three things have required this volunteering--the Hardware Survey, the HL2 vouchers in 2004, and the Portal giveaway with certain video cards in 2008.

Steam basically collects a bunch of anonymous info and has in a few instances clearly asked you to volunteer your personal info for a third party.

This is why I feel comfortable with Steam. I know what they're taking.

 

[Zoolooman]

http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html

There's the whole thing.

I'll e-mail them later and see if I can get a detailed view.

 

[StStutter]

Dear Greg,

I am very much looking forward to your faq. Will that be arriving soon? I'm anxious for more information and am hoping that there won't be an extended deadline.

 

[2K Greg]

Sadly, my estimation of "end of June" has turned out to be incorrect. I knew I shouldn't have given an ETA!

 

[The_J]

Moderator Action: Double thread, use the existing thread about the FAQ, -> closed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Commander Bello]

It's the end of June!!! Will Greg hold up to his word?!? Will we see this FAQ?!?! Will the forums erupt in revolt against Greg?!?! This and more, coming up next week on podcast 4, with Elizabeth Tobey.

From here:

Sadly, my estimation of "end of June" has turned out to be incorrect. I knew I shouldn't have given an ETA!

Well, all I can say: "What a big surprise!"

This very thread was opened on May 25th, so more than one complete month ago.
Most of the questions articulated here have been under discussion in other threads since weeks before said May, 25th. Another member of 2K took part in such discussions (2K Elizabeth).

Up to now we haven't got any answer at all (except for things which have already been stated elsewhere like in press statements and the like).

Conclusion: 2k as a company is not able or not willing to provide Greg with any information. This means - since he is 'the community manager' - they are not willing to answer their fanbase.

We are good enough to pay for their product, but exceeding this we should just shut up and accept without any questions what they offer us.

Thanks, 2k, but you just added another reason (next to the wrong decision of forcing the fanbase into Steam) not to buy your product at this time.
********************

In reply to the quotes below:
Steam's privacy policy states:

Valve software automatically generates and submits to Valve bug reports upon a crash or other fault in the Valve software. This automatically generated bug report information may include information about other software or hardware on a user's system.

(emphasis mine)

As having pointed out numerous times already, a bug report may not be that much reliable when the very software to create it has crashed.
Therefore, my assumption is that the additional information like hardware composition and other software has to be collected beforehand.

The right to do so has been granted by the user of that so-called "service" by accepting the TOS. Yet, in clear contradiction of what as been asserted here so often, the user has not actively to give his permission to collect such data and to send these reports.

They collect the same information any retailer does if you buy with a credit card, plus crash stats, playtime, and voluntary computer stats.

See above.

IPs, email addresses yes, but what else must a user give them? As far as I can tell, nothing. Or if they wish they can give false information.

Now, how about telling what other information Valve have as part of owning a steam account?

See above.

You're not getting it. Valve doesn't have my info except for a list of IPs I've connected from and my email address and I'm a regular Steam user.

And the info about your hard- and software.
And your playing habits in terms of genre, preferred time to play, duration of playing, maybe with whom you are in contact (so-called "friends" lists)

Valve doesn't have my information beyond IP and email address because I haven't given it to them. They have no way of getting it, except by spuriously legal means like uploading my hard disk.

See above.

 

[Zoolooman]

You're reading a lot into that little line. I'd guess the other software under discussion would be DLL libraries, Windows versions, DirectX versions, video drivers, and other things that will actually make a darned difference.

 

[The_Coyote]

I have no reason to lie.

No reason to assume this - surely you will only post informations you believe - but this must not necessary be the fact. Therefore the "source" request

I go by the Privacy Policy on this one.

others too - and the conclusion what is possible differ - can be a second reason for a source request

"Aggregate information" is information that describes the habits, usage patterns, and demographics of users as a group but does not describe or reveal the identity of any particular user.

Again nitpicking in this case - can you say how big this groups are? If they aggregate streetwise (assuming they have such data and always more than 1 person in the groups) would this be still ok for you. The worst case i could imagine if they know that there are at least 2 - 3 with one IP - in this case they could aggregate the data for the IP. Most likely this will not be done - but it´s also possible.

"Individual information" is information about a user that is presented in a form distinguishable from information relating to other users but not in a form that personally identifies any user or enables the recipient to communicate directly with any user unless agreed to by the user in advance of such communication. This information may be used to improve Valve's products and online sites, for internal marketing studies, or simply to collect demographic information about Valve's users.

The privacy policy also claims "Valve may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties". Btw browser fingerprints, unique hardware info would be most likely also fall under the definition of the individual informations - only information which would allow to communication directly (i start too ask myself why there is a directly - what is possible with "indirect communication" ) or reveal your identitiy (should be only the clear name, perhaps also a personal ID) must be removed from the data

-- This is all that account-specific stuff they track about your playtime, achievements, purchase history, and so forth. The idea is that they can't identify YOU per the privacy policy, but they can identify that there is a customer with your behavior..

Why do you think this list is complete? Also, but only perhaps (depends on the informations) this potential unique data can also used to merge different dataset. If you want to know what is possible with individual data you should have a second look at the the article linked here and perhaps at this (perhaps biased) articel

"Personally identifiable information" consists of a user's name, email address, physical address, or other data about the user that enables the recipient to personally identify the user.

One problem is - which data is exactly protected by this - eg counts Valve the IP as "Personally identifiable information"? Is the adress without the house number still a PII?

-- This is the stuff that the privacy policy protects. You have to volunteer for this information to be distributed by Valve to a third party. License agreements don't contain clauses to volunteer this stuff. So far, only three things have required this volunteering--the Hardware Survey, the HL2 vouchers in 2004, and the Portal giveaway with certain video cards in 2008.

Is there any other use of the hardware data collected in bug reports? Is there any usage of the hardware data collected to generate the custom executables (also is this data transfered to a central servers or only stored on your pc)?

Steam basically collects a bunch of anonymous info and has in a few instances clearly asked you to volunteer your personal info for a third party.

The data is not collected in anonymous way - perhaps afterwards the data is stored removing all PII informations from them so that they can be seen as anonymous. But the only case i can remember to see this guranteed was in the automatic bug report case. In all other cases they can store the data the way they "want". Only their further usage, eg how they give such data to third parties, is limited. And the questions is as how anonymous someone defines the individual informations.

This is why I feel comfortable with Steam.

glad to hear

I know what they're taking.

After reading the same policy, i still can´t say this.