Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ

[kozzer]

As someone who's worked on large development projects in complex organizations, 2KGreg is doing exactly what he's been instructed to. He's acting as a representative of his company, and is bound not to answer any question until the answer has been supplied by the appropriate resources and approved by others, to make sure that everything is complete and correct.

He can't just go off and answer questions for which the information hasn't been verified. It's best to wait until everything is complete, then release it. There's no rush, being that the game doesn't come out for another 2.5 months, as long as the FAQ is out some time before that (say, a month before), that's enough time for individuals to read through it, discuss it, and decide if they're comfortable enough with things to still pre-order the game. My feeling is that no matter what they do, what info is in the FAQ, it won't be enough for some people or if the info provided there is sufficient to quell concerns, some will just not believe it anyway. But I guess we'll see.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

True, he's in a no-win with some people. They will go into a tirade no matter what he says or does. Of course, others will agree no matter what he says or does.

 

[Hashishim]

Cant please everyone but yeah the saying patience is a virtue comes into play people just cant wait!!! I feel sorry for greg. He has to follow the correct protocol , because if he says something out of line or that is not authorized by the people above him, he'll either get fired or one of us fans may feel he is misrepresenting and "lying" thus putting the 2k in trouble. So people patience eveyrthing will be answered in due time.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I think the reason some people are impatient is because they were hoping that with the FAQ there might actually be some two way communication between publisher and customer about potential problems. Things in particular to note include automatic patching (we still have no straight answer on this) and how the deluxe edition will work in MP with regular editions.

If people start posting about their worries of the game patching automatically, for example, people come along and post that they shouldn't be spraying baseless paranoia about what is unconfirmed. For all we know it could very well be already confirmed and 2K choose to wait til later to reveal it to us.

I would have thought most of the point of the FAQ was to address concerns and misconceptions (about Steam or Steamworks) in a timely manner so that people in the forum could discuss the matters or settle disputes about these things with actual official word from 2K. Sort of "damage control" after 2K dropping the Steam bombshell on the community.

I have nothing against 2KGreg - he's just doing his job - but I am beginning to question what the point of the FAQ is. I'm expecting about a month to a month and a half before release we'll get the FAQ which ends up being basically a list of "this is why you will love steam" with the hard questions either ignored or rephrased to similar but easier to answer questions.

I'm sorry for being cynical but it's just how I feel considering the correspondence 2K has had with the community on civfanatics.

 

[Hashishim]

i also think the steam is been used to counter piracy:/ so the auto patching will be the key. lol unless of course its gets cracked.

 

[12agnar0k]

Although you can disable Auto-updating on Civ5 I read somewhere that if you choose not to update a game then Steam won't allow it run till its updated, so if you were hoping you could not update to continue to play mods that wouldnt work if updated. If this is true you would be out of luck.

No idea if this is correct or not. A good question though. May be important to modders along with "Will auto-updating affect mods?".

 

[Rebel44]

Although you can disable Auto-updating on Civ5 I read somewhere that if you choose not to update a game then Steam won't allow it run till its updated, so if you were hoping you could not update to continue to play mods that wouldnt work if updated. If this is true you would be out of luck.

No idea if this is correct or not. A good question though. May be important to modders along with "Will auto-updating affect mods?".

That is problem only when you tell it not to update after update is detected. If you set it not to update it wont check for update for that game (if it works correctly).

 

[Nick Danger]

As someone who's worked on large development projects in complex organizations, 2KGreg is doing exactly what he's been instructed to. He's acting as a representative of his company, and is bound not to answer any question until the answer has been supplied by the appropriate resources and approved by others, to make sure that everything is complete and correct.

He can't just go off and answer questions for which the information hasn't been verified...

Agreed.

Greg is just a regular person like us, trying to earn a living. He can report only what they let him, in as friendly/innocuous way as possible.

He's really in a lose-lose here -- answer too much and those answers generate more questions and complaints. Answer too little and that generates more questions and complaints.

The more he tries to answer, the more he's 'punished' for doing so, by getting even more questions/complaints. As such, answering less is his best option.

If there's any aspersions/ire to be cast (and there shouldn't be as it's only a game) it should be at those who make the decisions, and they're unlikely to be reading here, so, other than for the cathartic value, it'd be a waste of time.

 

[White Elk]

The different departments discussing the answers have been taking quite some time talking to each other.

This statement intrigues me. It makes be wonder... are they in discussion to alter the original steam arrangement? Is fan feedback being discussed, and potentially being acted upon? Outside of outright ineptitude, this extended delay only makes sense to me in that light.

I can't imagine how communication could be so screwed up that it should take these many weeks to relay information which should have already been known. Even with using snail mail and pre-digital telephonics; enough time has passed that this thing should be done. But that is assuming 2k was on the ball when first they pondered using steamworks. Questions should have been asked: Will forced patching break mods and save-games? Will it interfere with GOTM, HOTM, forum games, etc? Will the always running client affect game performance? Will steams offline mode work for Civ5 SPr's as advertised. Can Civ5 MPr's still play over LAN. etc.

I do think it within the realm of possibility that 2k experienced epic fail at time of the steamworks decision. And I think it possible that there exists a grieves break in the commincation network. As do I think it within the realm of possibility, that 2k delays the info cuz they know we won't like it. But I think it more likely that 2k and steam are currently under negotiations in response to fan feedback. With steam and Firaxis tweaking code. Though I admit, my strong desire for the "being fixed" option, may weigh heavy on my optimistic projection. But the way this whole thing went down, it just seems more logical, for this prolonged delay to be a result of changes being made based on response by the Civ Community.




Chin up Greg! I think most of us here understand that you make no decision and have no responsibility in this.
You are liason between us and them. You are ally not foe. Our agent... just don't go double-agent'ing on us

Perhaps your future works will bridge the divide. But for now, and at least for me, there is a clear Us and Them. You've got your work cut out for you reversing a history like.. 2k's silence over Civ4's patch schedule, 2k's sunny siding of the BTS MAF error fix, and more. But the good news is the fix is easy!.. Consistently communicate openly and honestly with us. Read our feedback and suggestions, then compile and post your data for our perview. Show us the feedback reports you've gathered to present to 2k. Give us the opportunity to see our concerns addressed in the report. And allow us one last shot to interject a missed point. Then send off the report and share with us the results. Keep us informed. And have some fun here. Humanize 2k and bring us into the fold. And open the door to the Firaxian workshop please :~)

 

[kayapo]

Do you conceal your hair and eye colour when walking down the street?

Is it really that hard to understand that the issue with people not wanting their privacy invaded has nothing to do with them having information that they don't want shared.

It is the concept that matters.

You don't go around giving up on your civil liberties because if you do where will it stop?

It is your job as citizen with rights to be against anything that might usurp you of them. Who cares if your computer is filled with pointless garbage, it is YOUR pointless garbage and nobody has the right to steal that from you, or else...

For me it is simple, forcing me to buy on Steam is already on the limit of acceptable. Forcing me to use Steamworks is pushing that limit, but even more adopting the concept of DLC makes me settle on my choice. I won't buy. I will wait a few years untill the whole DLC nonsense is done with and a single released packaged is available.

 

[Rebel44]

This statement intrigues me. It makes be wonder... are they in discussion to alter the original steam arrangement? Is fan feedback being discussed, and potentially being acted upon? Outside of outright ineptitude, this extended delay only makes sense to me in that light.

I can't imagine how communication could be so screwed up that it should take these many weeks to relay information which should have already been known. Even with using snail mail and pre-digital telephonics; enough time has passed that this thing should be done. But that is assuming 2k was on the ball when first they pondered using steamworks. Questions should have been asked: Will forced patching break mods and save-games? Will it interfere with GOTM, HOTM, forum games, etc? Will the always running client affect game performance? Will steams offline mode work for Civ5 SPr's as advertised. Can Civ5 MPr's still play over LAN. etc.

I do think it within the realm of possibility that 2k experienced epic fail at time of the steamworks decision. And I think it possible that there exists a grieves break in the commincation network. As do I think it within the realm of possibility, that 2k delays the info cuz they know we won't like it. But I think it more likely that 2k and steam are currently under negotiations in response to fan feedback. With steam and Firaxis tweaking code. Though I admit, my strong desire for the "being fixed" option, may weigh heavy on my optimistic projection. But the way this whole thing went down, it just seems more logical, for this prolonged delay to be a result of changes being made based on response by the Civ Community.

Keep dreaming, decision making process regarding DRM and other major decisions happened long time ago.

Its very likely any info released have to be also reviewed by 2K lawyers - which take some time in my experience.

 

[evrett37]

Greg is just a regular person like us, trying to earn a living. He can report only what they let him, in as friendly/innocuous way as possible.

I am so damn tired of this hippy "just a worker bee" crap. Greg has a "gamer" responsibility NOT to be a corporate peon mouthpiece. Firaxis has a responsibility to communicate promptly and effectively with loyal customers.

As I said many many times before, 2kE & G have a responsibility to be more upfront with the fact they are advertisers 2000 miles away from the developers and for all intents and purposes working for different companies.

If any of you - and I'm looking right at you Peice - backed me up at at the very beginning we might have an actual rep instead of the NOTHING we have now.

 

[White Elk]

Keep dreaming, decision making process regarding DRM and other major decisions happened long time ago.

I don't think so. Not in the sense you suggest. There is precedence for 2k changing DRM scheme prior to release, and due to fan reaction. And there is precedence for steam having alternate steamworks versions. So I could see how 2k, due to significant feedback, could attempt to negotiate how the steamworks client works for Civ5. And I can see Valve considering those requests. This may be optimistic of me, but I do see the logic of it. I think a change to how steamworks operates, is a viable possibility to explain why that FAQ is taking so darn long.

 

[Drakarska]

Afraid I'm going to have to agree with evrett37 for the most part. Part of Greg's ever officious title has the word "community" in it. Looking over the various forum threads, Greg's "community" portion of his title seems to be minimal at best, at least in my opinion. As far as the whole "live and let live" adoration going on, been there, done that. Was willing to cut him some slack on a few of his evasive replies to various posters, was willing to let him at least attempt some sembelence of forum interaction, but no more.

IMO, he's pretty much failed at all aspects of his lofty title, with the possible exception of spewing forth the usual corporate drivel that runs rampant within his limited posts. For that, I'd definitely give him a heartfelt 2 thumbs up. Oh, and blowing corp smoke 101 of course, obviously passed that class with flying colors.

This is not a flame, not a rant, not a temper tantrum. This is a voicing of displeaure from a customer who has been loyal to a company for 20 years, up until now. As a customer, I have certain rights before I purchase any product. The right to full disclosure, the right to make an informed decision, and most importantly, the right to talk to a "knowledgeable" representitive to put forth my inquiries to, and to get answers to my questions in a timely manner. Failure to provide any of these is sufficient reason for me to take my money elsewhere.

Unfortunately, we won't be able too. 2k knows this as well. As much as I hate to admit it, they actually outdid themselves on this. They've effectively calculated that any potential unhappy customers will be "acceptle losses" in the grand scheme of things. So by having the 2k rep stay relatively quiet, they don't have to worry about any possible legal issues or chances for misunderstandings. Pity really, I had actually hoped to have my aquired cynacism toned down and maybe believe that 2k might actually care just a little bit about it's old time fans instead of catering to the Steam crowed.

For those of you who are pro steam or find absolutely nothing wrong with any of this, great. That's your right and I respect you for that. I would appreciate the same consideration for my viewpoint as well. It is truely saddening in today's world what we are willing to blindly accept without even bothering to question.

 

[Shakes]

I just don't understand the urgency some people are expressing, the game isn't out for over two months anyway, are you really going to need that long to deliberate on whatever answers he brings before making a purchasing decision? Isn't it better to get correct answers than to get answers soon?

 

[PieceOfMind]

Shakes, the closer the game is to release (especially ~1 month), the less likely it is that any feedback from us will make any difference. I agree in part with White Elk's suggestion that it's quite possible some of the major concerns that have been raised so far have indeed been taken back to Firaxis. An example of this is the fact they're not releasing the game with PBEM, hotseat or pitboss functionality but will supposedly implement them in a later patch because they realised a bit late in the process that people still wanted these things.

People can also make more informed suggestions if they have at least a basic understanding of what steamworks integration will mean for civ5. So far, the only info we have is one press release stating very generic things and even including a statement that implies civ5 will use DLC, plus a couple of statements from 2K Greg and Elizabeth pointing out some (usually obvious) things about Steam.

 

[Shakes]

I don't really think that's a realistic expectation. The difference is PBEM/hotseat are features that Firaxis are developing themselves. Steamworks is a third party product they're looking to assuage people's fears about. It's a FAQ, they're going to tell you what is, not fishing for ideas about what should be.

 

[PieceOfMind]

We don't know yet whether the implementation of PBEM will have anything to do with Steam. Same with Pitboss. If this is one of the things they could clear up with the FAQ, all the more reason to get it out sooner. Waiting for everything to be set in concrete and deadset complete just means we'll wait til the game is ready to ship.

 

[wolfigor]

Greg is just a regular person like us, trying to earn a living. He can report only what they let him, in as friendly/innocuous way as possible.

He's really in a lose-lose here -- answer too much and those answers generate more questions and complaints. Answer too little and that generates more questions and complaints.

That's for sure!
I wouldn't like to be in his position... at least he is not answering questions in front of journalists ready to smear any of his (or his company) mistakes all over the net.

I have to say that 2K/Firaxis should have been better prepared for the inevitable backslash of forcing every user to use Steam.

The marketing story that they come with is the usual paternalistic approach "we do it for your own good" trying to sweeten the bitter pill of being forced into accepting yet another unrequested piece software doing "stuff" outside our control and being obliged to sign-in into yet another corporate controlled community.

I understand perfectly what they try to do (I'm in a corporate environment myself with products used by 100M users monthly), that's why I'm surprised their story is so shallow in some very important key points.
When I do plan marketing campaigns I tend to give more credit to the intelligence of my users and B2B customers (sadly, not always necessary).

I would have much more appreciated a more honest approach, something like:
"hey guys, I understand you may not like Steam but look at the alternatives.
We cannot ship without DRM, too many pirates out of there [quote some nice stat about it].
CD check and serial numbers are too week to really protect us.
All other form of DRM are far too intrusive and evil for our end users.
At the time being Steam is the best compromise between protecting our software and limiting the annoyance for our users.
At the same time Steam offers a lot of goodies [bla... bla... bla...]"

A statement with such a content would have placated most of the users complaining about Steam.
Obviously they should have been ready to answer correctly to all other questions about limitations of Steam when comes to offline gaming and ownership of the game itself.

Probably I spent far too much time in a corporate environment to really trust corporate communication and intentions.
But as a consumer/user I like to voice my doubt and try to change a 2K decision that I see going against my interests and damaging my consumer rights.

 

[diligence]

I think more people would be happier with steam not being allowed to collect any information from you, easy tick box opt out in account settings, Just like lots of other websites do when you sign up. I wouldn't mind so much if steam collected info that I gave them directly, but I certainly not want them to sell it to unknown companies. People want their privicy, thats why there is an Ex directory system for telephone numbers, you can hide your cell phone number when calling out etc.

Wolfigor, I understand the software companies are worried about pirates, but as pirates have got past DRM of all kinds, even Steam and Ubisoft always online system. So why waste their money on DRM development, it might make their software cheaper and more people might buy it, also as its been said, most people that buy pirate copies wouldn't have bought it anyway.
I would rather have steam as an optional extra for those that want the multiplayer option, and beable to run the game offline, without extra 3rd Party software needed, 2k can offer the updates from their own site like they do for Civ 4 and the like.