[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

After partaking of some of the Open Dev for Humankind and beta testing for Old World a while back I've changed my thinking about Leaders in Civ VI, VII, XXXXVIII, etc.

The animated individual Leaders are one of the main things that sets Civ apart from the Other Games. They'd be fools to do away with them. This despite the fact that they are Resource Sinks that narrow the range of Civs that can be included for lack of information (no Olmecs or Harappans in Civ) and reduce the total number of Civs that can be included because each Civ requires the expenditure of resources required for the Leader, in addition to the actual Game Play elements for it.

I think, furthermore, that individual named elements are going to see more, not less, emphasis in Civ in the future. Individual portraits of Great People and Governors - maybe even historical governors like the historical Great People. Individually-animated Great Generals leading your armies and possibly Civ-specific peoples wandering your city/district streets. I would also not be surprised to see Civ 'doubling down' on their greater resources to give more differentiation and Civ-specific Unit, Building, City graphics. Ideally, this might mean they can also allocate more graphic design resources to the map in general, and I think that's a pretty safe bet given the High Bar that Humankind has set for the game map.
 
Either I don't understand your point, or you didn't understand mine here :)
i think you both are agreeing without realizing it

both of you seem to agree that civs which try to encompass all of that culture’s history are poorly designed and need to be reconsidered
 
Part of Civ's appeal is the historical leaders so, as much as I love this feature in Humankind, I wouldn't want to see it come to Civ.

The animated individual Leaders are one of the main things that sets Civ apart from the Other Games. They'd be fools to do away with them. This despite the fact that they are Resource Sinks that narrow the range of Civs that can be included for lack of information (no Olmecs or Harappans in Civ) and reduce the total number of Civs that can be included because each Civ requires the expenditure of resources required for the Leader, in addition to the actual Game Play elements for it.

I agree with these thoughts as well. Focusing on particular historical figures can sometimes cause issues for Civ series, and Humankind is currently on a "dehumanization" (joke, of course) route - even most of the artworks don't feature specific figures. On the other hand, when people discussing Civ games and referring to different civs, they often referring to the leaders, or can easily link a direct relationship between civs and their leaders.

I am open to both games, and I can also see a lot of players relating to the "leader" approach more than the abstract approach. It would be better for Civ series to stick to this route, as both games can shine in different ways.
 
Last edited:
As for the discussion about the leaders in Civ VI, I think they are an essential part. Let's be honest: would Civ VI be the same game if you played against the Netherlands without Mama Tulip yelling at you for not sending trade routes, or playing against Brazil without Dom Satan getting on your nerve? Would Sumeria be better without Gilgabro (no, nevermind, this question doesn't serve my point).

---

As for the all debate upon Venice vs. Italy, I think the big problem we have here is the more fundamental debate upon blobization versus factionization

On one hand, blobs are an affront to God: not only do they are a complete misrepresentation of what the civ historically was, but it also feels too gimmicky. We all agree here that we ought to prevent blobization.
On the other hand, do we really want a game where we ought to separate every blob into more honest and historically accurate factions? Germany would be forbidden then in favor of the HRE, Prussia, Austria ; Spain migfht be in need of being cut into Aragon and Castilla ; France would need to represent only the Ancien Régime or Post-revolutionary, but not both ; Greece would certainly never happen again, as well as any representation of Phoenicia and Carthage ; ... Factionalization is what gave us England+Scotland (while both being very british), but also Canada+USA+Australia (especially Canada+USA; even mechanically they do not make sense to be separated, both being two civs focusing on diplomacy and national parks).
Moreover, if we go the route of factionalization, if will mainly be done for European/Western factions. See how we're debating over Italy, or over the need for Austria while we already have the HRE represented by Barbarossa and Germany's UA. So if we go the route of factionalization, we will get England+Scotland+Ireland, three civilizations for two pesky islands, or three post-colonial british nations, and more.

As always, then, the virtue is in the middle. For the question for blobization versus factionization, the answer that we ought to ask before even having questions of representativity and historical accuracy is: would a blob of this culture could be well done and represent accurately most of the factions of this blob without making the mistake of representing only a small fraction of this blob, and does a fractionization of this blob would be different enough from one another culturally speaking to justify the fractionization?

Let's compare Civ V Celts and Civ VI Gauls to answer this question :
Civ V Celts had a UI quite specific to Ireland, a leader from Wales, a UU specific for the Picts, and a UA which would more represent the Western Celts than the Eastern one. Each element of the Celt toolkit is nitpicking elements from different subcultures without anything unifying other than a name -> Bad Blobization
Civ VI Gauls have, true, a specific UU (but, to be honest, UU are bound to be specific from a spacetime period), but the CUA directly refers to the birth of gauls and celts, the Oppida were quite common for all Gauls, and the Leader, while never leading all the Gauls, was one of the most unifying one -> Good Blobization
Same for Greece: it's a good blobization because both leaders aknwoledge the differences between differents sub-city-States, the CUA is quite representative of the interest pretty all city-States had for political philosophy, and the Acropolis were found often in most of greek city-States ; moreover, while being ofter at war, Greek city-States still considered to be part of the same culture themselves, differentiating themselves from the Barbarian outside who weren't allowed to take part in the Olympian games -> Good Blobization
On the other hand, we have English with a British leader, a British CUA, a British UU and a British UI, and Scotland with a British UU, British UI and British CUA -> Bad Fractionization
And on the final hand; Civ 6 Germany: CUA, the leader and the UI all redirect towards the HRE (were those three things were shared with the entirety of the HRE), while the UU is more modern and doesn't quite fit with the rest -> Semi-good/semi-bad blobization

So, now that we analyzed it, what is preferable for Renaissance Italy: blobization or fractionization?
My personal opinion is blobization, and this is why:
What interest us in Renaissance Italy is the cunning politics between the city-States, the wonderful flourishment of arts and culture, and the interest of most influential families in trade. Can those three characteristics represent Florence, Venice, Genoa, Milano, Bologna, the Papal States? Of course! All the most influential city-States followed the same pattern: making trade, sending spies, do some patronage for artists, and so on. Therefore, a blobization of Italian city-States would make sense. Give it a unique Theater Square (it would fit because all Italian city-States dabbled in culture and patroned artists to some extent), a CUA around trade and money (it would fit because all Italian city-States were major traders and financial geniuses), a Leader with a diplomatic/city-States/spies bonus (while it would technically represent only one city-States, would still it would work because all city-States had leaders masters of diplomacy, and even Vittore-Emmanuel II would fit then with his Risorgimento), and while I do not have any warfare history literacy, don't tell me that there isn't any specific unit from the Italian peninsula that could fit. Therefore you could gave to a Renaissance Italy blob specific CUA, LUA, UU and UI that screams italian without making the mistakes of representing only a fraction or a specific faction or this blob.

TL;DR: a blob of Renaissance Italy would make sense because you can make an Italian civ with abilities and uniques that would scream Italian without being tied to a specific faction of Italy.
 
@Republic of San Montuoso
There is one problem with your blobalisation of Renaissance Italy. Venice does not fall within that scope very well. First of all, it was more than a City State from a certain period of time. It was a maritime Empire and none of the Italian City States archived this level (at last not for long). Second of all, it has more to offer and can add some additional things to our "identity" list you have enumerated. Cunning politics was a thing there but Venetians were World Champion in it for example. Besides no problem there with own UU, leader, UB/UI, recognizable identity.
Therefore for a possible role in Civ VI:
1. Venice as a part of blob: kinda works but it is a wase. We put something with the great potential of being a Civ into a blob.
2. Venice as a representation of Renaissance Italy: Venice can represent all that we expect from the Italian Renaissance fantasy you have enumerated but better than any other Italian CS and as for stand-alone European Empire. I don't think any other Italian CS has this kind of potential. For Milan, Siena, or Tuscany Italian Blob is probably the only way to be in the game as a Civ. For Venice, it is rather a prison and limitation.
3. Venice as a different Civ than Renaissance Italy. Venice can work even independently from Italian Civ because it is all we expect from the Italian Renaissance and more. And Venice outside Italian blob can still live and has something interesting to offer.
All of this (especially 2,3) makes one significant exception to your interpretation of the Italian blob and shows in my opinion why it would not work. Venice is just a not regular Italian CS you want to wrap in an Italian Civ.
Summarizing:
Blobalization perhaps works for Milan, but not for Venice. Factorization perhaps doesn't work for Milan but works for Venice.
 
Once again and last time to those who do not yet understand:
In my opinion degree of abstraction in the case of ancient Civs, about which we don't know really much can be more liberal, but in the case of modern history when we have some interesting recognizable Civ and we want to put it with the others (sometimes even minor) into one basket (labeled as a Modern Nation) is not even a blob, but just a waste.

That's I had just said before

All of these are ancient civs/empires/culturalentities/whatever , which is the reason that it works partially ..

As I said in a previous post, the only way Italy could be is under a XIX century leader

As I explained before , That's the problem with CIV design.. you get modern postcolonial states (Canada , Australia), prototype state-nations (France, Spain) , ancient empires (Egypt, Rome) , millennial-span continuities (china , India) , native tribes (Mapuche , Cree) ... it requires some degree of abstraction to conforn "playable factions" in terms of gameplay ... it works partially in ancient eras , but not in more recent eras...


(Interesting the guys who like your post spent several posts denying my argument)

Republic or Venice, Merchant City States, Papal States, Milanese Duchy, Kingdom of Napoles integrated into the Spanish Crown...

There is more similarity & likeness between today EU members then Renaissance Italy States and Republics ... and nobody pretend to make a "EU" Civ
 
@Republic of San Montuoso
There is one problem with your blobalisation of Renaissance Italy. Venice does not fall within that scope very well. First of all, it was more than a City State from a certain period of time. It was a maritime Empire and none of the Italian City States archived this level (at last not for long). Second of all, it has more to offer and can add some additional things to our "identity" list you have enumerated. Cunning politics was a thing there but Venetians were World Champion in it for example. Besides no problem there with own UU, leader, UB/UI, recognizable identity.
Therefore for a possible role in Civ VI:
1. Venice as a part of blob: kinda works but it is a wase. We put something with the great potential of being a Civ into a blob.
2. Venice as a representation of Renaissance Italy: Venice can represent all that we expect from the Italian Renaissance fantasy you have enumerated but better than any other Italian CS and as for stand-alone European Empire. I don't think any other Italian CS has this kind of potential. For Milan, Siena, or Tuscany Italian Blob is probably the only way to be in the game as a Civ. For Venice, it is rather a prison and limitation.
3. Venice as a different Civ than Renaissance Italy. Venice can work even independently from Italian Civ because it is all we expect from the Italian Renaissance and more. And Venice outside Italian blob can still live and has something interesting to offer.
All of this (especially 2,3) makes one significant exception to your interpretation of the Italian blob and shows in my opinion why it would not work. Venice is just a not regular Italian CS you want to wrap in an Italian Civ.
Summarizing:
Blobalization perhaps works for Milan, but not for Venice. Factorization perhaps doesn't work for Milan but works for Venice.
I don't think that necessarily means an Italian blob-ization civ won't work. It just means that if it became a civ, it wouldn't include Venice. So the choice is not between having an Italian civ and having no Italian civ, but rather between having an Italian blob civ or a Venice civ. Assuming the devs would go the route of including an Italian civ, of course. The second part of that is that I think we might agree that it's very unlikely we'll have both a Venice and an Italy blob civ in the same game at the same time, particularly this far into 6's development cycle where we're not sure if we'll be getting any more new civs at all. So in a sense, your argument does preclude an Italy blob, if the devs deemed Venice a more fitting way of representing Italian city-states in civ form. And there is some overlap between the two potential civs, like the aforementioned cunning politics.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I agree that maybe the concept of Venice does preclude an Italian blob. Why blob a civ when you can have one that is recognizable, was its own unified entity, had various unique or 'supercharged' traits (taking your example of Venetians being World Champions of cunning politics, that said cunning politics wasn't exclusive to Venice among Italian states/city-states but they were simply the best at it) that could lend well to unique abilities and infrastructure, and has precedent in that Venice has been a civ in the game before, all while representing a similar culture - Italian - that also encompasses the other city-states that would form the blob? We could have an Italy civ - described in-game as 'Italian Empire' - and a Venice city-state, but why do that when the reverse would be more historically accurate and would bring a more uniquely flavoured civ?
 
I don't think that necessarily means an Italian blob-ization civ won't work. It just means that if it became a civ, it wouldn't include Venice. So the choice is not between having an Italian civ and having no Italian civ, but rather between having an Italian blob civ or a Venice civ. Assuming the devs would go the route of including an Italian civ, of course. The second part of that is that I think we might agree that it's very unlikely we'll have both a Venice and an Italy blob civ in the same game at the same time, particularly this far into 6's development cycle where we're not sure if we'll be getting any more new civs at all. So in a sense, your argument does preclude an Italy blob, if the devs deemed Venice a more fitting way of representing Italian city-states in civ form. And there is some overlap between the two potential civs, like the aforementioned cunning politics.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I agree that maybe the concept of Venice does preclude an Italian blob. Why blob a civ when you can have one that is recognizable, was its own unified entity, had various unique or 'supercharged' traits (taking your example of Venetians being World Champions of cunning politics, that said cunning politics wasn't exclusive to Venice among Italian states/city-states but they were simply the best at it) that could lend well to unique abilities and infrastructure, and has precedent in that Venice has been a civ in the game before, all while representing a similar culture - Italian - that also encompasses the other city-states that would form the blob? We could have an Italy civ - described in-game as 'Italian Empire' - and a Venice city-state, but why do that when the reverse would be more historically accurate and would bring a more uniquely flavoured civ?
Yes, you are right. This is exactly what I am trying to say here:
1. Italian Renessaince Civ It is not a blob but this concept is represented as Venice in a Civ game (which is elegant because it refers to this specifical period of time without mixing with modern Italy)
2. Italian Civ is a blob, but without Venice, and Venice is a different possible Civ (which is ok too because for Italian blob represents also a modern-day Italy, and keep Venice distinct, but require both Civs or realistically excludes one of them)
The third option where Venice is a part of this blob and it is mixed with modern Italy as well is worst and seems very misshapen.
The first option is the best in my opinion and covers all problems.
 
So... What do you guys think of the Portugal design? :mischief:
 
Yes, you are right. This is exactly what I am trying to say here:
1. Italian Renessaince Civ It is not a blob but this concept is represented as Venice in a Civ game (which is elegant because it refers to this specifical period of time without mixing with modern Italy)
2. Italian Civ is a blob, but without Venice, and Venice is a different possible Civ (which is ok too because for Italian blob represents also a modern-day Italy, and keep Venice distinct, but require both Civs or realistically excludes one of them)
The third option where Venice is a part of this blob and it is mixed with modern Italy as well is worst and seems very misshapen.
The first option is the best in my opinion and covers all problems.

Replace "Venice" for "Papal States" or "Kingdom of Naples" and the same exact thing can be said...

So... What do you guys think of the Portugal design? :mischief:

Not the most original (nau + factory) but seems fun to play with
 
We're up to, if I calculate correctly, 58 persona leader civ playable options. Seems an odd number to finish on. Guess we should add 7-12 more. (Note: NFP added 12, DD added 7).
 
This entire thread after FXS released Portugal:
897.gif
 
I'd say keep it open until the April Patch. But after that, shut it down.
 
If more content is coming, then I think that makes a good case for starting a new thread.
 

The problem I could have with only Venice instead of a blobized Italy is that if we have Venice, it would be a heavily focused civ with maybe some diplomacy, but the cultural part might very probably be forgotten. For example, one UI that could work for Italy would be an Opera House (I think we're in dire suffering for lack of opera houses), but, even if we have the Scala as one of the most renowned opera house in the world, I doubt that everyone would think Venice would be well represented with an Opera House. If we have Venice, we would have a naval UU, a UI linked to the commercial hub or the harbour, a CUA linked to trade routes and maybe a LUA linked to diplomacy and city-States. But the cultural part would easily be brushed aside because it's not what we remember of Venice, while the Renaissance is still overwelmingly underrepresented period of time through civilizations.

It depends on what we want for an Italy/Venice civ: do we want more of a culturally focused civ or a trade focused civ? And that's a matter of personal preferences, and I personally lean toward the cultural one. The fact that Florence is still absent for Civ VI even for a city-State is an affront that I took personally (but nobody at Firaxis would accept the duel, so, here it is)
 
The problem I could have with only Venice instead of a blobized Italy is that if we have Venice, it would be a heavily focused civ with maybe some diplomacy, but the cultural part might very probably be forgotten. For example, one UI that could work for Italy would be an Opera House (I think we're in dire suffering for lack of opera houses), but, even if we have the Scala as one of the most renowned opera house in the world, I doubt that everyone would think Venice would be well represented with an Opera House. If we have Venice, we would have a naval UU, a UI linked to the commercial hub or the harbour, a CUA linked to trade routes and maybe a LUA linked to diplomacy and city-States. But the cultural part would easily be brushed aside because it's not what we remember of Venice, while the Renaissance is still overwelmingly underrepresented period of time through civilizations.

It depends on what we want for an Italy/Venice civ: do we want more of a culturally focused civ or a trade focused civ? And that's a matter of personal preferences, and I personally lean toward the cultural one. The fact that Florence is still absent for Civ VI even for a city-State is an affront that I took personally (but nobody at Firaxis would accept the duel, so, here it is)

Italy really wants to be a renaissance man civ: scientific, commercial, cultural, religious, industrial. And I think Phoenicia already kind of took a lot of Venice's thunder as the Mediterranean "trade" civ. So I would hope that an Italian civ would be much more multi-faceted; high degree of flexibility but at some cost of being fractured or hard to defend.
 
Italy really wants to be a renaissance man civ: scientific, commercial, cultural, religious, industrial. And I think Phoenicia already kind of took a lot of Venice's thunder as the Mediterranean "trade" civ. So I would hope that an Italian civ would be much more multi-faceted; high degree of flexibility but at some cost of being fractured or hard to defend.

@PhoenicianGold and I don’t always agree, but we definitely do on this. :thumbsup:
 
joao is not pronounced the way i thought it was

and this was the implementation of feitorias i wanted

@Republic of San Montuoso
There is one problem with your blobalisation of Renaissance Italy. Venice does not fall within that scope very well. First of all, it was more than a City State from a certain period of time. It was a maritime Empire and none of the Italian City States archived this level (at last not for long). Second of all, it has more to offer and can add some additional things to our "identity" list you have enumerated. Cunning politics was a thing there but Venetians were World Champion in it for example. Besides no problem there with own UU, leader, UB/UI, recognizable identity.
Therefore for a possible role in Civ VI:
1. Venice as a part of blob: kinda works but it is a wase. We put something with the great potential of being a Civ into a blob.
2. Venice as a representation of Renaissance Italy: Venice can represent all that we expect from the Italian Renaissance fantasy you have enumerated but better than any other Italian CS and as for stand-alone European Empire. I don't think any other Italian CS has this kind of potential. For Milan, Siena, or Tuscany Italian Blob is probably the only way to be in the game as a Civ. For Venice, it is rather a prison and limitation.
3. Venice as a different Civ than Renaissance Italy. Venice can work even independently from Italian Civ because it is all we expect from the Italian Renaissance and more. And Venice outside Italian blob can still live and has something interesting to offer.
All of this (especially 2,3) makes one significant exception to your interpretation of the Italian blob and shows in my opinion why it would not work. Venice is just a not regular Italian CS you want to wrap in an Italian Civ.
Summarizing:
Blobalization perhaps works for Milan, but not for Venice. Factorization perhaps doesn't work for Milan but works for Venice.
venetian also occupies a really interesting linguistic space independent of the italian dynamic.
 
Top Bottom