[RD] Clinton vs. Trump - USA Presidential race.

[Timsup2nothin]

I'd say poor on both parts. Pence is going to get the full "pants on fire" treatment from the fact checkers and that will hurt in the long run. Kaine has poked Trump repeatedly so he will probably embarrass himself some more, but he's not showing up well in the process.

 

[Zkribbler]

yea this definitely reads that the DNC locked Kaine into a room and said "memorize these quotes and facts"

he is full "Rubio" mode.

And Pence isn't? If he blames Obama one more time for not renegotiating Bush's deal with Iraq, which Iraq refused to renegotiate, and which if negotiated, would have left American forces in Iraq to be used as a recruiting tool for al Qaeda, I am going to hunt Pence down and smack him in the face with a dead fish.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

They are both doing awfully imho.

Pence comes across as a better debater, although he is wrong about everything. Kaine is only wrong about most things. Generally Clinton/Caine propose solutions that cannot work, but Trump/Pence don't even have a basic understanding of the issues that such policies might be intended to address.

On many areas like foreign policy or immigration it would be easy to crush Pence if one was willing to tell the truth, but unfortunately Clinton shares most of the same underlying presumptions and has no interest in enlightening the ignorant jingoistic masses.

 

[El_Machinae]

Clinton's Former Prosecutor Endorses Her for President

Twenty years ago, Michael Chertoff was near the top of the Clintons’ enemy list. He was the lead Republican counsel on the Senate Whitewater Committee, one of the first of many congressional investigations into Hillary Clinton.

Clinton later cast the only vote in the Senate against him when he was nominated in 2001 to head the Justice Department’s criminal division. She was also the lone no vote against Chertoff in 2003, when he was nominated to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the third circuit.

All of this, though, was before the Republican Party nominated Donald Trump as its presidential candidate. This has shaken the party of Reagan. Chertoff, a lifelong Republican, will now be voting for the Democrat in November.

Sorry, still working on learning the formatting.

This is really a surprise. There's a reasonable case to be made that he should carry some rather strong implicit bias against her, he'd been paid to view her as potentially corrupt for quite awhile, and you can see from their history that there's no love lost.

But to vastly prefer her the The Biggest Loser is pretty telling. He's aghast at Trump's behaviour by that level of disgust.

 

[Kennigit]

They are both doing awfully imho.

Pence comes across as a better debater, although he is wrong about everything.

I think this is my summary.

Kaine I don't think is wrong. Most things are because he has spent a large amount of time just attacking the (verbatim) quotes of Donald Trump

His main substance seems to be the Iran deal/Nustart, and the 5 component plan on the economy that was very broad stroke that didn't really make any claims. Saying that some agencies said the Clinton policies would create 10 million jobs is 100% true, and most people will believe it, but it isn't really anything to be "wrong" about

This closing statement by Pence is his whole debate. "Obama = bad leader, war on coal, Hillary Clinton doesn't have leadership, I support law and order." But Pence was wrong on everything concerning Trump.

 

[zxcvbob]

When they first walked out, I thought it was incredibly clever that they were color-coded with red and blue ties. Then realized they had it backwards :facepalm:

 

[Sommerswerd]

"Trump speaks with the fullness of his heart" ... from the Gospel of Matthew

-Kaine's quote of the night

Also...

"Can you defend it?"

Kaine was much meaner and more tenacious than I thought he was capable. Pence did a really good job at running for President in 2020, very poised, elegant, reasonable and dignified. He did a great job with an impossible task.

 

[Dreadnought]

Kaine definitely lost. It makes me think that he went in expecting to lose but intending to repeat the same phrases as often as possible (comments about Mexicans, taxes, etc).

Pence didn't aggressively defend Trump but did enough to remain posed and intelligent despite Kaine's constant interrupts.

The moderation in this debate was even worse than the first. Truly awful and incompetent.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The story of the next few days is going to focus on fact checking, and the Trump campaign is going to lose that battle.

Expect ads showing Kaine saying "Trump says..." then Pence saying "He never said that" followed by a clip of Trump saying exactly what Kaine accused him of. Close with "Donald Trump. Indefensible. Undeniable."

 

[Kennigit]

I agree with the talking heads post debate: it will just go in the laundry list of VP debates that don't make a difference.

I have no idea about 1992 (other than the famous stockdale intro), but did any of the following make a difference?

Gore - Kemp (Clinton was massively ahead, and I believe this was a poorly watched debate from summaries of it)
Lieberman - Cheney (I was too young to know if that made a difference, but considering how close it was maybe it did)
Edwards - Cheney (really was Kerry v Bush, and Bush had a very strong september by the polls)
Biden - Palin (Obama was cruising to victory being a demonstrative statement against the Bush era. Palin gambit is well publicized to not have any effectiveness. The debate didn't matter and I believe consensus was Palin performed better than expected)
Biden - Ryan* (this one was important as Biden wholloped ryan and Obama was regarded as having bad first debate. But Obama pulled through in later debates/campaigning independently of Biden Ryan, I would hazard to guess)


This election is all about Clinton Trump.

 

[danjuno]

Kaine was a little awkward squabbling with Pence at the beginning, but at least his tone was matter-of-fact to Pence's smugness. Kaine managed to bring up the juiciest parts of Trump's gaffes while Pence looked clumsy in his take-down attempts on HRC.

 

[metalhead]

I think the repetition on Trump not releasing his tax returns was intentional, and worked becuse it is so problematic in so many ways. The questions it raises I think will be more harmful than if Trump had released them a year ago and had everyone promptly forget about it. The repetition of some of the other talking points by Kaine was far less effective.

Nevertheless, the narrative will likely come out of this that Tim Kaine directly challenged Mike Pence, repeatedly, to defend Trump and Pence demurred. That and Pence denying several times that Trump said things that he did, in fact, say. And one time flat out denying something he himself had said about Putin.

 

[danjuno]

Yeah, Pence was definitely weak on defending his boss. "You're Fired!"

Also, I've seen comments that Pence sounded like he was acting like he was running for President in 2020 rather than like he was running for Veep in 2016, and that Kaine played the traditional role of attack dog. I agree, but Warren or Franken would have been better if that was what mattered. Kaine is Mr. Nice Guy. Though, admittedly, that doesn't change the fact Pence let Kaine murder his boss.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Pence was doing his best Hillary Clinton debate impression, sans facts... while Kaine was doing exactly what Trump wished he could have done to Hillary... if only he had some grasp of the subject matter or a coherent competent thought past the first 10 minutes of the debate.

 

[danjuno]

Pence failed to make The Donald look anymore appetizing to non-Trumpites. This will cancel out any ill affects of Kaine's aggressive posture.

 

[Zelig]

Citing facts not in evidence. Trump is fully qualified to do his own corporate taxes--finance degree from the #1 program in the world.

Is there any evidence that Trump can do basic arithmetic?

And so, nowadays, we think of 'the house' as a way to make money rather than merely a way to save money.

I like to think of value of buildings as equal to total future rental income. And if you live it yourself, then you're paying rent to yourself.

 

[Zkribbler]

When they first walked out, I thought it was incredibly clever that they were color-coded with red and blue ties. Then realized they had it backwards :facepalm:

Trump was wearing a blue tie; Hillary a red dress.

 

[El_Machinae]

I like to think of value of buildings as equal to total future rental income. And if you live it yourself, then you're paying rent to yourself.

Yep, the money you spend on interest is lost. And the money you spend on rent is lost. So, you can sometimes keep more money one way than the other.

But we've had a couple generations of house prices going up faster than growth, for a couple artificial reasons, and so it stymies people's intuitions.

 

[Commodore]

which is why the "Hillary is part of the problem" type arguments ring hollow... Trump is also clearly part of the problem. So if we accept that we feel like they are both "part of the problem" then it cancels out ... and its back to the facts and figures, experience, and competence to do the job. Hillary wins.

I meant to reply to this earlier, but didn't get around to it. For me the "they are both part of the problem" doesn't cancel out because they are both part of the problem for different reasons. To grossly oversimplify my opinion on the matter: Hillary is the personification of everything wrong with our political system, while Trump is the personification of everything wrong with our economic system.

 

[Lexicus]

Ahh Commodore...do u even political economy?