[RD] Colin Kaepernick

[civvver]

What do you guys think about the Colin Kaepernick saga?

In case you have been living under a rock, Kaepernick was an nfl quarterback who last season would sit during national anthems at games as a protest against police brutality towards minorities. Well actually his quote was more general, that he was protesting against oppression in general but it came on the heels over police shootings and he cited those as examples. From wikipedia:

Before a preseason game in 2016, Kaepernick sat down, as opposed to the tradition of standing, during the playing of "The Star-Spangled Banner". During a post-game interview, he explained his position stating, "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder", referencing a series of events that led to the Black Lives Matter movement and adding that he would continue to protest until he feels like "[the American flag] represents what it's supposed to represent".[52][52][53][54] In the 49ers' final 2016 preseason game on September 1, 2016, Kaepernick opted to kneel during the U.S. national anthem rather than sit as he did in their previous games. He explained his decision to switch was an attempt to show more respect to former and current U.S. military members while still protesting during the anthem after having a conversation with former NFL player and U.S. military veteran Nate Boyer.[55] After the September 2016 police shootings of Terence Crutcher and Keith Lamont Scott,[56] Kaepernick commented publicly on the shootings saying, "this is a perfect example of what this is about."[57]

After his protest he went on to start 11 games for the 49ers, I don't follow that closely but I think he was hurt to start the season and then started after that. His stats were decent. But the 49ers didn't resign him, instead they now have Brian Hoyer who objectively is worse. No one in the league has signed Kaepernick, leading to speculation that he is being black balled by the league for his protest.

When anonymous league execs have been asked they always said they don't want Kaepernick because he would be a distraction on their team due to the amount of coverage his protests have been getting. At first I kind of agreed, and Kaepernick isn't that good anymore, but now it's getting ridiculous. Teams like jacksonville lost a qb and signed Chad Henne as a replacement. I mean, what? He's horrible. Jay Cutler came out of retirement for like 10 million. Execuse me? You mean Kaepernick wouldn't be worth at least 75% of cutler at a third that price right now?

The whole thing is getting really weird and it's incredibly divisive. I personally don't care one bit that Kaepernick sat during the anthem. I'm not a rah rah usa kind of guy. I appreciate our national symbols, but that's all they are, symbols. People are of the opinion that him sitting during the anthem is a huge slap in the face to all of our veterans. I'm not a vet, nor do I know many, but I just don't feel that way. Many of these people strike me as the same ones who would oppose obama, be accused by the other side of slapping black people in the face by their opposition, and then would say that's not true at all. If you can oppose obama and say he's not a symbol of minorities, I don't get how you can argue the anthem is a symbol of the military and veterans. I'm probably comparing apples and oranges and shouldn't have mad this argument. The point is I don't understand why these people get so upset. But they do, I personally know multiple people who think Kaepernick is a diva and because he's a rich athlete he has no right to complain about inequality in america and he is being disrespectful. Which I think is baloney.

And then comes the issue of legality with what the nfl is doing. It's all hush hush but let's say the nfl actually came out and said he's banned from the league for actions detrimental to the league. I don't think employers can censor you outside of work, but they certainly can argue that your actions hurt their business and can place limits on what you do during games. Some would argue that since it was during the anthem pre game it wasn't during the game. Either way I do see where the nfl and teams are coming from, that a lot of people would stop watching your team's games if you hired him, just out of spite or whatever. So yes, he has hurt the nfl's business in some ways.

Still, I'm sure if those teams started winning those fans would come back. I guarantee you if Kaepernick came in and lead a team to multiple wins and a playoff spot those fans would get over themselves. I think it's hypocrisy really, it's easy to hate on him cus it doesn't affect you personally.

Another huge example of the hypocrisy is these same fans openly root for guys who have arrest records for domestic violence and drugs. Ezekiel Elliot is being suspended right now for police incidents involving domestic disputes with his girlfriend and I'm sure cowboys fans want him back and would cheer for him openly without a second thought. Maybe not all, but a huge majority, and those same fans want Kaepernick black balled from the league.


Side note: how do you make your quote show up not as a spoiler or quote, but the little quote box you have to click in to expand?

 

[Lexicus]

Side note: how do you make your quote show up not as a spoiler or quote, but the little quote box you have to click in to expand?

I believe it has to do with the length of the quoted text (ie, if it is long enough it will be expandable).

As to the actual topic, naturally I stand with Comrade Kaepernick and against the Great Satan.

 

[MilesGregarius]

That no team has signed him as a backup definitely smells of him being blacklisted.

 

[civvver]

That no team has signed him as a backup definitely smells of him being blacklisted.

What do you think about it though? On the one hand I think it's ridiculous, but I also am not offended by his actions, and though I'm not going to attend any black lives matter rallies, I can see his point.

But on the other hand the nfl is a business and they don't want to offend half their fanbase.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Another huge example of the hypocrisy is these same fans openly root for guys who have arrest records for domestic violence and drugs. Ezekiel Elliot is being suspended right now for police incidents involving domestic disputes with his girlfriend and I'm sure cowboys fans want him back and would cheer for him openly without a second thought. Maybe not all, but a huge majority, and those same fans want Kaepernick black balled from the league.

Citing Elliot is disingenuous based on what we know for the moment. Basically, not only were criminal charges dropped on him, but they apparently have text messages of her outright threatening to "ruin his career". Elliot's behavior patterns otherwise don't do him favors, but that situation stinks on both ends.

The hate on Kaepernick is interesting. Why is he such a "distraction" in the first place? At the fundamental level, his actions that garnered attention were trivial. Constant coverage + showing him doing it + harping on it have led to a public outcry that honestly would have been close to non-issue if it was mentioned in passing and then just ignored in terms of significant media coverage, perhaps with a token "I don't agree with the way he's doing it". Meanwhile, the majority of people who dislike him have contributed no more to the country than he has, while many have contributed less (Kaep pays taxes and whatnot, even threw money at the issue in question).

I don't particularly like what Kaep did, but it just isn't a big deal/doesn't change reality much in practice. Fans and media alike have blown it way out of proportion and given it way too much attention/butthurt. Effectively, Kaep trolled a huge portion of the NFL fandom to get attention, successfully...and coverage keeps feeding the trolling!

Is it fair to say he's been blacklisted? He's not a good starter. He's not even an average starter. However, he is much better by every standard or advanced metric you can use than numerous QBs signed after him. The only way he hasn't been blacklisted in my mind is if he's insisting on average-level starter money or more behind the scenes. If he's willing to take an average-above average backup QB contract but teams haven't signed him, it's more than just fishy.

As for whether he has a legal case, unfortunately probably not. If we've learned anything from the active dishonesty of Goodell during the Ray Rice saga or how he's handled other player incidence before/after then, it's that the league's CBA apparently lets it skip over due process, self-consistency, or even honesty. That Ray Rice was blacklisted only AFTER the video went public, despite that the incident was 100% consistent to what was described to Goodell (though Goodell tried to lie about that) is the best evidence. If the NFL thinks fans don't like Kaep, they'll do their best to keep him out, because they can.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I like how the entire rest of the world outside the USA counts as "under a rock".

 

[Lexicus]

But on the other hand the nfl is a business and they don't want to offend half their fanbase.

If this is actually true then the problem lies with the fanbase, which apparently can tolerate wife-beating, drunk driving, and dog-fighting rings, but sitting during the National Anthem? That dog won't hunt, Monsignor.

 

[onejayhawk]

That no team has signed him as a backup definitely smells of him being blacklisted.

Not hardly. It smells of him being a marginal player who is bad for team discipline. Compare Robert Griffin III who is both a better player and less trouble, yet is scratching for crumbs. Kaepernick has already been around the league, twice. The teams don't need to see anything more to form an informed opinion. File him beside Vince Young and Tim Tebow as great college QB that cannot adjust to the NFL.

Now that I think about it, Kaepernick is the other side of Tim Tebow's coin. Both are PR headache's that cannot play.

J

 

[metalhead]

He would be a better option than several QBs that will have starting jobs this season, to say nothing of backups where he is better than virtually all of them. Obviously a backup gig requires a team have a QB that fits their offense, so that doesn't automatically make him compatible as a backup with every single team.

Kaepernick is far better than RGIII. He's not "bad for team discipline," that's just coward-speak for "We have no spine and don't want to upset our fans even though signing him would make our team better."

 

[onejayhawk]

Kaepernick is not "far better" than anyone on an NFL roster, and they have not yet cut back. Like RG III he had some early success, but proved unadaptable. If he could play effectively, he would be under contract.

J

 

[Kyriakos]

I don't know about this, i mean it is about a sport apparently existent (in this variation) only in the US. From the OP i gather that this player made a protest, which insulted some fans/whatever. I suppose his reasons for protesting may have been honest (?), but a team sport isn't where you usually find this attitude. Most team-sports rely on the players staying out of any politics, as much as possible, cause ultimately they are tied to a large number of other players/trainers/coach, so chances are that whatever political position they stand by will have enemies in the team.
Also, team sports usually aren't the place to launch a political stand for the reason that (regrettably, but whatever) most people in team sports are there just because of physical traits that fit the game, and not due to any other distinction. Personally i don't have a high opinion of team sport, tbh...

 

[MilesGregarius]

What do you think about it though? On the one hand I think it's ridiculous, but I also am not offended by his actions, and though I'm not going to attend any black lives matter rallies, I can see his point.

But on the other hand the nfl is a business and they don't want to offend half their fanbase.

Honestly, despite growing up bleeding Black and Gold in the '70's, I gave up on the NFL back when the Stillers failed to cut ties with Roethlisberger after his second apparent sexual assault. (I know he has "straightened himself out." Too little, too late.) Throw in the concussion issue and the jingoism that football regularly indulges in, not to mention Penn State and Steubenville, and I find football culture in America simply reprehensible. The Kaepernick situation is just par for the course.

 

[metalhead]

Kaepernick is not "far better" than anyone on an NFL roster, and they have not yet cut back. Like RG III he had some early success, but proved unadaptable. If he could play effectively, he would be under contract.

J

RGIII never won a playoff game. Kaepernick won an NFC Championship game and has 4 playoff wins under his belt. I swear, you're this daft on purpose. It HAS to be intentional.

 

[caketastydelish]

RGIII never won a playoff game. Kaepernick won an NFC Championship game and has 4 playoff wins under his belt. I swear, you're this daft on purpose. It HAS to be intentional.

Kaepernick had a phenomenally good supporting cast. Ever since that fell apart look what happened. 49ers would have been better off just keeping Alex Smith. No starting QB in the NFL is worse than Kaepernick. Name one. As a backup QB, he could be acceptable. Even then, you'd have to be desperate.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If this is actually true then the problem lies with the fanbase, which apparently can tolerate wife-beating, drunk driving, and dog-fighting rings, but sitting during the National Anthem? That dog won't hunt, Monsignor.

It tolerated dog fighting a lot less than the other two you mention, which says a lot by itself. I suppose social outrage isn't rational in the first place, but come on.

Compare Robert Griffin III who is both a better player and less trouble, yet is scratching for crumbs.

Sorry, but no way. RG3 has a worse completion %, worse yards/attempt, worse passer rating, worse TD:INT ratio, worse QBR over recent history. Kaep has thrown more TDs than interceptions every year he's had any of either. RG3 has only been positive twice, and one of those times he as 16:12. Kaep was 16:4 last year on an awful team throwing to largely replacement level WRs. They are comparable in that they each had a run above their normal abilities thanks to read-option before teams adjusted, but Kaep is *consistently* a better passer over the past 3 years by any objective measure you can possibly use, in addition to being less of an injury risk.

That's before we included QB runs...which actually favor Kaepernick also (same career YPC for both, but Kaep has more total yards and more yards/season over last 3).

Kaep is not even an average starting QB, but his recent stats are objectively better than the likes of Josh McCown and Jay Cutler, who have starting jobs. He is miles ahead of most backups and there is no legit statistical case otherwise. You can make a solid case that he outplayed Cam Newton, Carson Wentz, Eli Manning, and Ryan Tannehill last season based on their respective numbers.

This is why if nobody wants to pick him up on backup QB contract money, it's bogus.

File him beside Vince Young and Tim Tebow as great college QB that cannot adjust to the NFL.

There is no credible data that points to his career numbers being anywhere near this kind of basement. He had a 16:4 TD/Int ratio on one of the worst overall offenses in the league last season. This is not a "one good season" type of look. He's a consistently below-average starter in terms of play quality.

The ONLY way you can justify this situation based on numbers is if Kaep is overvaluing himself on the market and refusing contracts he thinks are too low.

I gave up on the NFL back when the Stillers failed to cut ties with Roethlisberger after his second apparent sexual assault.

Court of public opinion needs no due process.

No starting QB in the NFL is worse than Kaepernick.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr

If you don't like this metric, use TD:INT or whatever you feel like using. By quite a few metrics he is better than a handful of 2016 and projected 2017 starters. I don't like the guy but let's not ignore reality.

 

[MilesGregarius]

Court of public opinion needs no due process.

I ain't a court. As a native-born Pittsburgher, I always took pride in both the Steelers and Penn State supposedly being both successful and honorable. When Santonio Holmes was traded for embarrassing the team with his much less serious legal woes while the team bent over backwards to explain how Roethlisberger shouldn't be judged too hastily, that did it for me. Businesses regularly cut ties with employees who hurt the brand image long before any legal judgement is handed down. The Steelers' decision to sever ties with a pothead, but not a man with a track record of seriously questionable behavior towards women was their call. It's my call whether I choose to no longer patronize said business.

 

[rah]

Blackballed required collusion. I'm not willing to go that far.
Are individual owners refusing to give him a decent offer because they fear backlash, undoubtedly.
He's black, has an afro, and dissed the national anthem.
If he was white, had a conservative haircut, and dissed trump, they'd be falling over each other to make him an offer.
While sad and absolutely wrong, you have to consider those things before you protest.

He has said he wouldn't protest it in the future. And he has done a lot of charity work since.
Time will pass, someone on a contending team will get hurt and we'll see him back.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I ain't a court. As a native-born Pittsburgher, I always took pride in both the Steelers and Penn State supposedly being both successful and honorable. When Santonio Holmes was traded for embarrassing the team with his much less serious legal woes while the team bent over backwards to explain how Roethlisberger shouldn't be judged too hastily, that did it for me. Businesses regularly cut ties with employees who hurt the brand image long before any legal judgement is handed down. The Steelers' decision to sever ties with a pothead, but not a man with a track record of seriously questionable behavior towards women was their call. It's my call whether I choose to no longer patronize said business.

Businesses optimize for cost/benefit. Steelers arguably made a mistake with Holmes, I forget the details on that one.

You're certainly right that voting with the wallet is the way to go regardless. That said, these kinds of incidents only go further to show the irrational outcry of OP case.

Blackballed required collusion. I'm not willing to go that far.

True, fair enough. We have plenty of evidence that decision-making on him is not based on merit, but not much of actual collusion.

 

[Commodore]

That no team has signed him as a backup definitely smells of him being blacklisted.

No, he just sucks. Seriously. Look at his stats. Compared to every other starting QB in the league his stats range from average to abysmal. His whole protest shenanigans were just a publicity stunt to save his floundering career. It didn't work. Oddly enough, it also provides him with a convenient excuse for his failed NFL career as well. Instead of having to face the fact that he is simply a no-talent hack compared to the other QBs in the league, he can now just lie to himself that it was "racism" that ended his career.

There have been players that have done far more controversial things than he has and it didn't end their careers. Want to know why? Because they were phenomenally talented players so teams were willing to take the risk on them. Teams aren't going to take a risk on a discipline problem that is only average at best. If he were a better player, someone would sign him despite his antics even if it were just some desperate bottom feeder in the league.

I gave up on the NFL back when the Stillers failed to cut ties with Roethlisberger after his second apparent sexual assault.

Never convicted yet you apparently still believe him to be guilty. Nice to know you believe in "innocent until proven guilty."

Kaep is not even an average starting QB, but his recent stats are objectively better than the likes of Josh McCown and Jay Cutler, who have starting jobs.

They have starting jobs because they aren't a discipline problem. Whether you like it or not, if you are an average to below-average player, then you have to be squeaky clean discipline wise and keep your mouth shut if you want to stay in the league. The more talented you are, the more you can get away with while keeping your career intact. Look at Richard Sherman. He more or less directly insults the NFL itself (something the NFL supposedly takes more seriously than political protests) at every press conference, yet he gets away with it because he is an incredibly talented player. Do you really think Sherman would still be in the league if he did the same things he does but was only an average player? Hell no he wouldn't. He'd be in the same boat Kaepernick's in right now. Conversely, if Kaepernick were putting up Peyton Manning-in-his-prime numbers, then he'd still have a job right now despite his protests.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Neither Kaep nor Sherman's words have any merit as "discipline problems".

Edit: some of Sherman's in-game tirade last season notwithstanding.