Cottages vs Farms vs Lumbermills

[SPB87559]

Hello all I am new here but not new to DOC. I am not the most skilled player but my favorite civs to play as are Vikings and Russia.

When it comes to Vikings, cottages, farms or lumbermills? I know you can do all 3 but I have noticed the AI always does cottages and maybe occasionally builds a lumbermill on a hill. Problem I run into is production issues especially if I am building lots of cottages.

What is the general strategy on how to play most optimally with them? Also I exclusively play on 3000BC and marathon. I find marathon to be way more immersive.

Also, is there a way to stop Catholicism spreading to my cities with the Vikings way too early?

 

[SPB87559]

Oh and to clarify, I am on 1.17.3.

 

[1SDANi]

The AI kinda struggles with optimizing based on civics and techs, especially if it doesn't yet have said civics and techs available. Lumbermills highly depend on Paper, and Railroad and Revolutionism once Individualism enters the game to outcompete cottages outside of production poor areas, and the Vikings have a ton of hills, likewise Farms are highly reliant on Vassalage, Manorialism, and Tributaries, and fall off hard over the course of the zero to death combo that is Printing, Universities, Centralism, National Colleges, Individualism, Leevees, Observatories, Secularism, Nationhood, Ironworks, Factories, etc, honestly, there's so many percent commerce and flat production buffs around that time that towns just rapidly obsoletes tributaries far harder than any stability penalty ever could.

I probably play in an odd way compared to most here, but I prefer using farms and lumbermills with Vassalage, Manorialism, and Tributaries during the Medieval era before leveraging Individualism's +100% Cottage Growth to minimize the time spent using cottages as +1 or +2 commerce improvements, IMO it only really starts outpacing the 1/1/1 of farms once you're no longer spending 30 turns for a +3 yield. It also means I have a ton of forests near cities with forges so I can rapidly build infrastructure, with Nationhood covering the role of military production from food that Vassalage once did.

 

[SPB87559]

Do you replace the lumber mills with cottages once you have individualism?

 

[SultanRedSnake]

I probably play in an odd way compared to most here, but I prefer using farms and lumbermills with Vassalage, Manorialism, and Tributaries during the Medieval era before leveraging Individualism's +100% Cottage Growth to minimize the time spent using cottages as +1 or +2 commerce improvements,

Wait I thought that was literally all of us

 

[1SDANi]

Wait I thought that was literally all of us

IDK, I remember a while back people questioning my using farms as China while I was discussing my attempts at figuring out the UHV... still haven't figured out a way to consistently get past the initial barbarian hordes without massive amounts of save scumming. Like, I get the utility of cottages in a long game, but China really doesn't have the early game sources of happiness needed to work that many plots from my experience and units are needed far more for defense than they are for happy police.

Do you replace the lumber mills with cottages once you have individualism?

Usually I only replace lumber mills that aren't on hills, as they make for some really strong high production tiles, but only if the chopping will contribute to a Leevee, Factory, any power plant, or Industrial Park. I know it's a relatively small contribution to their production, but once those lumber mills are gone the cities working them lose a lot of production so every reduction in turn time between chopping and construction is invaluable.

 

[Dracosolon]

Lumbermills are great if you're poor, running Republic, or on rivers if you're going to switch to Central Planning at some point (where you'll favor Watermills over Cottages). On hills I still prefer Mines though, if only for the small chance of discovering resources. Paper Lumbermills are also a great early boost for medieval civs.

Cottages will eventually be great but need time to grow, so they're best for civs that have a lot of time to build them and no issue with food (like Egypt) or civs that can reach Individualism early (like European civs). The higher stages (I think Villages and Towns?) also contribute to your core population for stability purposes, so there's some small additional incentive to build them in your core (while tiles that are outside your core but can be worked by your core cities can be used for something else like ). One thing I've been wondering is if they're affected by immigration mechanics (they should be IMHO) - otherwise I don't know how other players make them work for late civs.

Farms are all around solid with Vassalage, Manorialism, and enough , mediocre otherwise. The paradox here is that it's typically past the medieval era that you really start getting more , but they're still good enough to feed a few additional specialists. With Biology and especially Chemistry Farms can still be used to supplement low cities that would struggle to hit their cap otherwise, but you usually have plenty of tiles that could do with a more interesting improvement so they usually remain low priority.

 

[SPB87559]

Lumbermills are great if you're poor, running Republic, or on rivers if you're going to switch to Central Planning at some point (where you'll favor Watermills over Cottages). On hills I still prefer Mines though, if only for the small chance of discovering resources. Paper Lumbermills are also a great early boost for medieval civs.

Cottages will eventually be great but need time to grow, so they're best for civs that have a lot of time to build them and no issue with food (like Egypt) or civs that can reach Individualism early (like European civs). The higher stages (I think Villages and Towns?) also contribute to your core population for stability purposes, so there's some small additional incentive to build them in your core (while tiles that are outside your core but can be worked by your core cities can be used for something else like ). One thing I've been wondering is if they're affected by immigration mechanics (they should be IMHO) - otherwise I don't know how other players make them work for late civs.

Farms are all around solid with Vassalage, Manorialism, and enough , mediocre otherwise. The paradox here is that it's typically past the medieval era that you really start getting more , but they're still good enough to feed a few additional specialists. With Biology and especially Chemistry Farms can still be used to supplement low cities that would struggle to hit their cap otherwise, but you usually have plenty of tiles that could do with a more interesting improvement so they usually remain low priority.

Yeah I noticed playing with Russia I lose a lot of population to the new world if I don’t have cottages. I lose population to the new world even with cottages but it seems less pronounced. Definitely makes things more difficult if trying to run a specialist economy.

Either way though, this mod is absolutely incredible. I do not play any other version of CIV because of it.

 

[SPB87559]

Also, is there a way to stop Catholicism from spreading to Vikings so early on? I love the idea of not being able to adopt a state religion until it spreads to your capital.

 

[Dracosolon]

Only sure way is Theocracy but it will take a while for Vikings to get it. Otherwise religions spread through trade routes (I think connected to the Holy City?) so a catholic spread will get increasingly probable as you get more trade routes with Catholic cities.

 

[SPB87559]

Only sure way is Theocracy but it will take a while for Vikings to get it. Otherwise religions spread through trade routes (I think connected to the Holy City?) so a catholic spread will get increasingly probable as you get more trade routes with Catholic cities.

That’s makes sense. Something I might try later today is only building cities in Norway until 1100 AD. Not going out exploring until the late 800s and see if I can stay pagan til 1100. Probably will do Oslo, Bergen and Nidaros to start.

 

[Logoncal]

wait you guys build cottages? im a farm enjoyer.
also, i have sometimes a habit of cottaging flood plains with conquest civs.

 

[SPB87559]

wait you guys build cottages? im a farm enjoyer.
also, i have sometimes a habit of cottaging flood plains with conquest civs.

Yeah I have had issues deciding farms or cottages. Farms seems more efficient with Russia atleast.

 

[Maggy_domain]

Yeah I have had issues deciding farms or cottages. Farms seems more efficient with Russia atleast.

I also farm the core with any food plain/plain terrain. Also France: Paris surrounded by farms gets ~25 pops by renaissance and caps specialists. Monarchy mandatory. Only exception is USA where immigration supplies lack of farms.

 

[BigSchwartzzz]

Not that I'm a decent player at all, but I heard that the core should be towns if conquest is not the civic and farms are lined outside the core in core city BFC. That makes sense to me, especially for France where you get a huge science boost. Am I wrong or on the right track?

And I do only mines until industrial in case resource spawn, as earlier mentioned.

 

[SPB87559]

Interesting Russia game I am in. Monarch difficulty and marathon speed. Mongolia never collapsed and they are second on the leaderboard and I am first. Got all 7 cities in Siberia. A lot of wars. After Mongolia invaded(I absolutely slaughtered their army), Holy Rome invaded next. After peace I decided to invade Poland and just pillaged all their resources since Holy Rome invaded through them. Vikings attacked shortly after but it was a half hearted attempt(always is even when I am England). Eventually Mongolia declared war again but thankfully I got a massive military so I handled them. France invaded from the west but it was a pathetic attempt. As did Portugal.

I have noticed the AI loves to declare war when I am Russia but outside of Mongolia the efforts are pretty poor. The Vikings especially. Even as England the Vikings are nothing more than a minor annoyance.

The year is 1681 and I am running 40% research with 214 per turn. Economy is plus 13 gold per turn. I can not get a great statesman at all but thankfully I have lots of markets and banks.

 

[Orbii]

Not that I'm a decent player at all, but I heard that the core should be towns if conquest is not the civic and farms are lined outside the core in core city BFC. That makes sense to me, especially for France where you get a huge science boost. Am I wrong or on the right track?

And I do only mines until industrial in case resource spawn, as earlier mentioned.

Nope, the Towns in Core and Farms on non-core tiles in core city BFCs is correct, but it's mainly for stability purposes. A Town in your Core counts as +1 core population for the expansion stability formula (you could also maybe conceptualize this as indirectly getting +2 Food (or more, if the working city is unhealthy) on the Town tile if it's in the Core). However, I don't think this kicks in until the Cottage becomes a Village*/Town, so it's more of a mid to late game consideration.

*ETA after checking in Civilopedia and seeing that Villages also work for the +1 Core population.

 

[SPB87559]

Nope, the Towns in Core and Farms on non-core tiles in core city BFCs is correct, but it's mainly for stability purposes. A Town in your Core counts as +1 core population for the expansion stability formula (you could also maybe conceptualize this as indirectly getting +2 Food (or more, if the working city is unhealthy) on the Town tile if it's in the Core). However, I don't think this kicks in until the Cottage becomes a Village*/Town, so it's more of a mid to late game consideration.

*ETA after checking in Civilopedia and seeing that Villages also work for the +1 Core population.

So currently in my Russia game I have only built farms and lumber mills. Should I start replacing the core tile farms with cottages?

 

[Dannimal]

My general suggestion:

• Prioritize production (hammers). Production builds infrastructure, units to and attack neighbours, and expand via workers & settlers. Unless you run out of areas to expand or enemies to subdue I suggest staying on farms & workshops. Vassalage farms with tributaries should be the path.
• When population grows to happiness limit switch to workshops and/or build armies for garrison & conquest. Much like historical middle ages / renaissance.
• Transition to cottages if you run out of stuff to build (conquered all your neighbours) or discover individualism.

General notes:

• Late game consider transitioning to egalitarianism-central planning watermills.
• I rarely use lumbermills. In food rich areas workshops work just as well. In food poor areas farms are better. Again this is rather historical.
• For hills replace the afore mentioned improvements with mines, windmills, and cottages.
• What timing you use to switch is based on experience. Note that switching over the capital region first with regulated trade multiplies the commerce gain.

Altogether these create an excellent game mechanic that simulates urbanization around the capital (capitalism joke anyone?)

 

[Logoncal]

You defend communism because you desire a classless society with the people at the power of the means of production.
I like communism because their Watermills are broken powerful