Couple of questions

1234567890

Warlord
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Do you think it would be balanced (and worth implementing) if :

1. the Amurites started with an adept instead of a warrior?
2. the Sheaim started with an adept instead of a warrior?
3. the Hippus started with a Weak horseman instead of a scout?
4. the Balseraphs started with a freak instead of a warrior?
5. the Doviello started with a Wolf instead of a scout?

1. and 2. are more important, as these arcane-based civs should have more knowledge than other people on Erebus, especially when you keep in mind that the 1st Amurite and Sheaim people were adepts who banded together to increase their knowledge in magic. Having to re-discover like everyone else looks inappropriate.

Also, what's the use of Spirit III in MP games?
 
Also, what's the use of Spirit III in MP games?

There isn't any (unless there are AI players as well as other humans), just as there isn't any use for water-walking in maps without oceans or lakes. Or Dragon Slaying with Acheron turned off and the sheaim and kuriotates not present. Some spells and abilities are more situational than others.
 
Dragon Slaying is a minor feature. Water walking is useless without oceans, but it also leads to powerful water elementals. But Trust is a tier 3 spell (i.e. supposed to be very powerful), the Spirit spells are already weak, it becomes completely useless in MP and it's a shame to waste a tier 3 spell like this.
 
Keep in mind that the two civilizations you are speakng of have strong palace mana. Giving the Sheaim an adept probably means giving them free skeletons. Giving the Amurites an adept probably means free floating eyes (negating much of the exploration of the early game).

Also keep in mind that those adepts gain free passive XP, and with arcane leaders in both civilizations, those adepts are going to get experienced pretty fast.

I'm not disagreeing with your reasoning. I''m just asking that you consider the consequences.
 
Giving the Sheaim an adept probably means giving them free skeletons.

ONE free skeleton, not that much...

Giving the Amurites an adept probably means free floating eyes (negating much of the exploration of the early game).

Since it would be very risky to let their Adept go exploring, I don't think the exploration bonus would be that great.
 
1234567890 said:
Since it would be very risky to let their Adept go exploring, I don't think the exploration bonus would be that great.

Not that risky guy.

You seem fairly familiar with the game, so surely you know that floating eyes are essentially hawks that can be summoned for a turn. So, you summon a floating eye, explore the area ahead, move to a relatively safe tile in the explored area, summon another one, and so on.

Now, the second part of that statement, I can generally agree with. I think having access to a floating eye on turn 1 is probably borderline, but really, what are the great advantages of being able to explore so early? You'll have very few techs of importance when it comes to relations (such as the ability to trade techs, high number of trade routes, etc.).

So, you'll know where everything is LONG before you'll have any real influence or ability to change or profit from it.

I don't see it as being an enormous problem balance-wise. It would simply be one of the amurites advantages, and they're early game is sort of weak anyways.
 
Well, if the adept gets trapped by lizardmen or other mobile units, he's screwed. But we both agree that such a change would be more flavour-wise and not infringing on balance.
 
I would point out that one skeleton is essentially 1 suicide troop per turn. Very easy to wear down a target you could not typically take had you only had a scout.

With the floating eye it would not hard to avoid getting trapped. Would reveal all near by villages giving a significant one up on someone else that had to find them the hard way.

I understand the idea of them getting an adept but I do not think it would be balanced at all.
 
Replacing the Balseraph Warrior with a Freak would be a neutral change, on average. Some games your Freak would be virtually worthless because of bad mutations (although you could still use it to drop a Freakshow in your starting city, or better yet in your second city); in other games it would be a combat monster. This would be the most balanced of the changes mentioned.

As for the rest, although they are flavorful changes I do not consider them balanced:

Replacing the Doveillo Scout with a Wolf would be a big disadvantage. A Wolf cannot see Spiders, does not have a bonus against animals, and does not get better results from tribal villages like a Scout. If you decided to execute an early attack on your neighbor your chances would be reduced, because the Wolf has a city attack penalty that Scouts do not have. The best use for this unit would be to construct a Wolf Pen, but you can't do that until you've researched Festivals and built a Carnival. Until then the unit is dead weight (in comparison to the Scout it replaced).

Replacing the Hippus Scout with a weak Horseman (by which I assume you mean a Horseman with the Weak promotion) would be an advantage. The Horseman is unable to see Spiders and would not get better results from villages, but would move twice as fast as a Scout - and so would on average be able to collect twice as many villages as a Scout before animals began to appear (this would be a more pronounced factor at longer game speeds). It would be very powerful in combat: Str 3, move 4, 1 first strike, 35% withdrawal, +40% vs archers - much stronger than the Warrior others get.

Replacing the Sheaim Warrior with an Adept is a big advantage. They would lose the ability to see Spiders and improved village results, but would gain so much more. Yes, Raise Skeleton is only ONE free unit, but it is one FREE unit that can be INSTANTLY replaced for NO cost. If the Adept is sent exploring and a Skeleton is used as protection then the Adept will never be lost unless attacked by two enemies in the same turn. The Skeleton can be moved first, so that if the prospective destination is seen to be threatened by two enemies the Adept can choose to move elsewhere (the original Skeleton is then deleted, and a new one summoned, so the Adept does not forego protection by applying this maneuver). After the first two free xp, the Adept will be able to cast Dance of Blades, to make its Skeleton slightly better than a plain Warrior in combat. After some exploration the Adept could return home, and apply Blaze to give a big jump on development of Jungle tiles.

Replacing the Amurite Warrior with an Adept would be a huge advantage. Floating Eye is the best Scout in the game, and any other civ would need to research Sorcery for access to this spell (to put this in perspective, note that the Calabim will generally have Vampires before anyone has researched Sorcery...). Thanks to free xp the Adept will soon also have Haste, allowing it to move as fast as a Scout (although admittedly not on turns that it uses Floating Eye). Its base strength of 3 makes it as good as a Scout against animals (although I would send a Warrior along with it as protection, considering how valuable it is), and it can see Spiders and any other foes long before they become a threat. The vast area exposed by Floating Eye would make it very easy to find villages, so I would expect the Amurites to get a larger share of these, which would on average more than make up for the fact that the Adept doesn't receive better results from villages. Plus, much like the Sheaim, the Adept would then be able to return home and burn Jungles to unlock the potential of city sites that others would not be able to fully exploit until researching Bronze Working.

Edit: Reading MagisterCultuum's post, I realized that I had misread the proposed Amurite and Sheaim replacements as intended for the Scout, when in fact they are for the Warrior. This makes them even more powerful, because in each case it gives the civ two effective scouting units at the start.
 
Do you think it would be balanced (and worth implementing) if :

1. the Amurites started with an adept instead of a warrior?
2. the Sheaim started with an adept instead of a warrior?
3. the Hippus started with a Weak horseman instead of a scout?
4. the Balseraphs started with a freak instead of a warrior?
5. the Doviello started with a Wolf instead of a scout?

1. and 2. are more important, as these arcane-based civs should have more knowledge than other people on Erebus, especially when you keep in mind that the 1st Amurite and Sheaim people were adepts who banded together to increase their knowledge in magic. Having to re-discover like everyone else looks inappropriate.

Also, what's the use of Spirit III in MP games?

I'd prefer the Adepts replacing the Scout than the Warrior, at least for the Amurites. (I would typically remove Death mana from the Sidar palace as I implement the Dimensional sphere. An Adept that Summons Skeletons is a strong warrior replacement, but one that can cast Escape is a much better scout. I tend to think that Floating Eyes fit the OO theme better than the Metamagic sphere, but the actual functionality is ok for the sphere of knowledge so i may or nay not change it.)

A weak Horseman for the Hippus is not a good idea. Scouts upgrade to Horsemen anyway, and have the advantage of being able to get Subdue Animal before upgrading. The weak promotion would make the unit less useful no matter how many upgrades. Now, if you want to give then a scout with the Horselord promotion and unique mounted graphics to go with it, that could be nice.

Starting with a Freak would be fine by me.

I'd rather have a unit that can capture wolves than a wolf that is weak to other nations' scouts.



In general I would not care though, as I pretty much always use Advanced Start.





Spirit III is useless if there are no AI players, and even if there are it becomes useless once cast once. That is why I always give the promotion an extra spell. Typically I call it something like "Comfort," "Allay," or "Assuage," and make it remove the Enraged, Crazed, and Burning Blood promotions from units (friendly, neutral, and enemy) within a 1 tile range (if not resisted). This is more in keeping with the lore of the Spirit sphere than any current spirit spell. It is most useful right after Wrath. Sometimes I make it also deal uncapped holy damage to units like Ira, Chaos Marauders, the Avatar of Wrath, and Odio (whom I of course always add to the game as sort of an evil Brigit than can be freed from Odio's Prison), as these units' power comes from the negative emotions that this Spirit spell mollifies.
 
I think having access to a floating eye on turn 1 is probably borderline

Turn 2, actually, since the palace would have to be built to get the mana, first, and then the Adept would get the promotion next turn. And that's only if you build your first city on the first turn.

I actually really like the idea, from a flavor standpoint. Balance-wise... I think it gives an advantage over other starting units, but the adepts are more fragile, as well. Probably evens out, mostly.
 
How do you figure the adepts are more fragile? They have the same 3 strength as a non-metal warrior, and bronze working is a long ways down the tech tree from turn 1. I will grant that they don't have the city defense bonus that warriors get, but adept or warrior, defending your capital with only one unit is suicide. In the field, it's the same animal, except with free bonus xp. Heck, forget spells, put the first 5 levels into combat, and eat newbie warriors for lunch.
 
Well, again, settings/map likely influence this, and I always play Pangea variant/Raging Barbs/Wildlands, so just because I can explore something far away with a floating eye doesn't mean I'll actually be able to make it there anytime soon. Hordes of Lizardmen, skeletons, goblins and 9:strength: bears will tend to hamper expeditions to the aforementioned goody huts.

Those who choose to play in a more docile world may have a different opinion, I suppose.

I still don't think either adept change would be game-breaking, and both civs have less than stellar early games IMO. They're not really disadvantaged in any way in the early game, but they recieve no early advantages either. They're just sort of there.
 
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