Critique my first immortal game

[_Calyx]

I've recently got discouraged playing Emperor because of the huge tech disparity between myself and the AIs later in the game - after about the Renaissance, they just pose no threat (and sometimes earlier than that). I therefore decided to try Immortal, and played my first immortal game using 6otM43 as Australia on island plates with standard speed, going for a science victory. I decided to post this in the strategy forum so as not to revive that thread, but please be advised that there will potentially be spoilers for that game if you are intending on playing it.

I achieved science victory on turn 283, with 524 science/turn, 222 culture/turn, and 598 gold/turn. At this point, I think that I am the tech leader, though there are three other Civs also in the Information Era (Korea, Scottland, and Japan). I am the culture leader. I have 14 cities, 10 of which I founded (though one was with a stolen German Settler). I caught up in technology by spying in the modern era, and Korea might have won if I didn't have every single one of my spies in her cities pillaging spaceports and industrial zones. I used the great Scientist that gave all modern/information era eurekas, but didn't get any of the space production great people until two turns before I would have finished anyway - I know Korea snagged at least one, possibly two. I probably wouldn't have won if England hadn't declared war on me right as I was getting battleships - this triggered Australia's production bonus and allowed me to sail my fleet around liberating England's city states or some cities she took from Norway to keep it going; I'm still at war with England when the game ends. For the majority of the game, I have had active alliances with Japan, Scotland, Korea, and the Dutch. I made an alliance with Norway when England's aggression caused them to like me more (they and England have been enemies the entire game).

I finished getting districts online by the Modern Era, a bit after turn 200, and then switched over to most cities working on research projects. Most cities have a campus, harbor, and commercial hub. By turn 112, I had 8 cities (one captured); shortly after, I declared war on Germany to steal a settler near my territory and also took one of his city states as well as a nearby free city. At turn 112, I have 49 science/turn, 30 culture/turn, and 33 gold/turn; I'm researching Education and am last in science. I've been focusing on building Quadriremes and Galleys using the +100% naval production card and then chopping with Magnus when 1 turn is left, parlaying that production into Settlers or districts as needed.

So while I did win this game - something I'm quite happy about - I do feel that I could have done much better. It took a while for my empire to really get going, and I spent a long time being behind in science despite it being my focus. Scotland had submarines when I was just upgrading to frigates, and where it not for the alliances I had established I likely would have been rolled in any type of aggressive war from the AI. When a war declaration finally came, I had caught up in technology and my four allies entered the war proactively - things did not go well for England. Without my spies sabotaging Korea and the timely declaration of war, I still might have lost, despite playing fairly well (for me) and the early safety afforded by island plates.

I've attached a few save files from different points in the game - please let me know what I should be focusing on to improve!

 

[Victoria]

I decided to post this in the strategy forum so as not to revive that thread

There is a reason for GOTM threads to be separate and it is just this. The posters in that thread give explanations of how they sped things up and you can always PM for more info, most people are happy to help.

I do feel that I could have done much better

The idea is to take that game and play it a few more times. I think most fast winning players will say that this is the best way to get better, to replay games and assess how to get them better. I guess I could play the game and then give you some pointers but its xmas and busy. Saying that I will see what I can do.
There is nothing wrong with a 283 victory but it does seem to play into some general rules that you may not be too efficient at
1. Concentrating all your efforts on your victory... do you really need that building?, that population? that wonder?.... Should I be working that tile or sitting in my library / university? .... should I be building that bank rather than running a science project?
2. What makes up science is a big eye opener. City states and Kilwa Kiwisani are big parts of it. Specialists sitting in all your libraries and unis also can make a noticeable difference. Above all science city states, finding all that are there fast, gaining 3 and 6 envoys is big. Kilwa is not pushed by the Ai and you should be able to build/chop without issue. Sometimes killing envoys is more valuable to a faster victory than sabotaging a spaceport, especially if they have not started projects.
3. Empire size, bigger is better for science to a large degree. Certainly early gains militarily help hugely as does monumentality, getting cities settled as well as being on the warpath and pillaging what you can can all help. Do not overkill on builders before feudalism. Gold early to buy settlers also, it does not pump the price.
4. Pyramids and Coli are really important if you can get them and great library now can be on high levels and Kilwa is just great.
5. How you complete your projects with builders and planning that last phase can cut many many turns off your victory, 7 charge builders can finish projects fast and co-ordinating Reyna, Pingala and Magnus amongst your 2-3 spaceports.... having a military academy, gold for Reyna.... all standard SV stuff. Your SV phase should be 10-20 turns long ideally if you have planned it right.
6. A culture push to the top of the culture tree is also a good strat but maybe a bit of practice with the approach. With Oz I would be going campus

So expansion phase, capture and build cities, preplacing campi but not necessarily pushing them, you should be pushing culture at least until feudalism. At feudalism your builders explode onto the scene to chop in your science... this mid game phase is the preparatoin phase where you need to start estimating what you need where for your final phase... working out what you need as well as fighting for envoys. Remember that after a certain period of time like T100 you really should not be getting more cities but instead consolidating and planning, maybe settle the odd city for a spaceport chop or even a builder chopping ground to chop in builders. The better you get at the planning phase the better your endgame.... You can have a glorious first 8- moves but if you do not think through all you need for your end game you end at T283

 

[_Calyx]

The idea is to take that game and play it a few more times. I think most fast winning players will say that this is the best way to get better, to replay games and assess how to get them better. I guess I could play the game and then give you some pointers but its xmas and busy. Saying that I will see what I can do.

This is a fantastic idea that I have somehow never considered before, thank you!

There is nothing wrong with a 283 victory but it does seem to play into some general rules that you may not be too efficient at
1. Concentrating all your efforts on your victory... do you really need that building?, that population? that wonder?.... Should I be working that tile or sitting in my library / university? .... should I be building that bank rather than running a science project?

How do I evaluate this? How much population do you generally need, when do you stop building infrastructure like banks?

2. What makes up science is a big eye opener. City states and Kilwa Kiwisani are big parts of it. Specialists sitting in all your libraries and unis also can make a noticeable difference. Above all science city states, finding all that are there fast, gaining 3 and 6 envoys is big. Kilwa is not pushed by the Ai and you should be able to build/chop without issue. Sometimes killing envoys is more valuable to a faster victory than sabotaging a spaceport, especially if they have not started projects.

Interesting that you place such a high value on City States - I actually conquered Stockholm in this game because it was convenient and I wasn't confident about getting Suzerain. I've never considered building the Kilwa Kiwisani.

6. A culture push to the top of the culture tree is also a good strat but maybe a bit of practice with the approach. With Oz I would be going campus

I did get to the top of the culture tree in this game, but without really focusing on culture at all. I built only two Theater Squares, both fairly late - I'm actually not sure why I was so advanced in culture.

So expansion phase, capture and build cities, preplacing campi but not necessarily pushing them, you should be pushing culture at least until feudalism. At feudalism your builders explode onto the scene to chop in your science... this mid game phase is the preparatoin phase where you need to start estimating what you need where for your final phase... working out what you need as well as fighting for envoys. Remember that after a certain period of time like T100 you really should not be getting more cities but instead consolidating and planning, maybe settle the odd city for a spaceport chop or even a builder chopping ground to chop in builders. The better you get at the planning phase the better your endgame.... You can have a glorious first 8- moves but if you do not think through all you need for your end game you end at T283

I've been using chops to get Settlers in recent games, but you suggest reserving them primarily for Science infrastructure / wonders. Since each city obviously has a finite number of chops, how do you generate production for Settlers - buy and then hard build after Early Empire? Even with the chops, I did feel that my empire was slow to get off the ground, with only 8 cities by turn 112.

Thanks for the detailed response, I really appreciate it!

 

[Victoria]

How do I evaluate this? How much population do you generally need, when do you stop building infrastructure like banks?

Why would you build a bank beyond the eureka? The whole area is complex and once again relies on CS in the decision making a lot. If you have 2 commercial CS your markets are getting +8 gold... a bank gives you +5 for 265 production. The population that are making that production could be placed on libraries and Universities and production can go into science projects. This way you are concentrating on your victory condition. Do not get me wrong, You need gold but there are many ways of generating gold, off continent bonuses cards are pretty much as good as banks, when a trade route gets you 10-15 gold do you need a +5 bank? Harvesting crab and copper is an awesome amount of gold later... when you need gold near the end, harvesting a crab will give you near 500 gold if you want, thats 100 turns of a bank for 1 charge of a worker (no merchant points though). How much gold do you need?... Buying the spaceports is the main thing right?... maybe 12K? This is why I am saying the middle game when you start to assess your gold needs and your way of getting the projects launched as fast as possible is key. Building the spaceport takes a lot of time if you do not buy it.
On the how much pop do you need?... look at your game save and go into a city and ask yourself how much value is that pop giving me late game and how happy is my civ?

Interesting that you place such a high value on City States - I actually conquered Stockholm in this game because it was convenient and I wasn't confident about getting Suzerain. I've never considered building the Kilwa Kiwisani.

Suze helps but it is not key, Great people are only of so much value. R&F removed such a heavy reliance on them. Getting that +2 for 3 and +2 for 6 envoys stacks up big time. Going for a science victory is about finding every possible way to squeeeze science out of your civ. In a culture game you cannot afford to have another civ generating a lot of culture, in a science game that is not the case. They can be way ahead of you but it takes them ages to build a spaceport and launch projects, it should be taking you a much shorter time.

I did get to the top of the culture tree in this game, but without really focusing on culture at all. I built only two Theater Squares, both fairly late - I'm actually not sure why I was so advanced in culture.

Thats great.... if you look at International space agency... be suze of 5 CS is not hard, especially in a science game... especially if you have your spies trained as envoy assasins and concentrate on city state quests also and using the double envoy for first envoy card... and using the containment card <--- great card, I always recommend you play a game just to try and get 100 envoys by T200... you likely will not do it but it teaches you about getting envoys, as many as you can. Also International Space Agency requires any suse, there is always the odd forgotten CS out there easy to become suze of... 1 suze should = 40-50 science late game. The whole area of CS is very underrated by many

Since each city obviously has a finite number of chops, how do you generate production for Settlers - buy and then hard build after Early Empire? Even with the chops, I did feel that my empire was slow to get off the ground, with only 8 cities by turn 112

Yeah... 8 cities by T112 is a fail. Monumentality in a golden classic age is what you are aiming for. If you can get Harvest then you are swimming in settlers if you do it right. You can also buy settlers, getting a lot of gold early and either buying monuments or settlers is really good... I always sell open borders and all my luxes early

 

[Victoria]

I found this old analysis I did a while go, the numbers are just proportion numbers. So while buildings provide the most science at 3... and rationalism has been nerfed a bit, together they have a proportional value no greater than 3 science city states. If you can get papal primacy and convert those city states they become even more powerful.

Kilwa Kisiwani gives 3 envoys when built which helps nicely and gives +15% science to the wonder city for each science CS.... but having 2 science suzes it will give +15% to all cities. Its not super huge but when you are up to 500 science it is an additional 75 science which is a lot. In essence it is roughly a proportional value of 2 with 2 science CS suzed.

To appreciate International space agency you have to understand that if you race culture and know how to play the envoy game you will be suze of at least 5 CS (unless you are playing peacefully and they have all been taken). This means you are no longer making 500 science but instead 750 science. That is a big leap. If you can get the moon landing early you get a massive culture rush that can help push you to the international space agency.
Hopefully this helps you understand just how much of the science victory is around City States ...also just how much specialists can give you.
Population and science buildings and adjacency gives you a relative value of 5.5
2 science city states alone gives you a relative value of 4 without any special wrappings or suzerain.
Basically if you slotted the double science adjacency card 2 city states would provide 66% extra... if you also slotted all specialists you would be doubling your science output. That is a much faster game.

 

[_Calyx]

OK, I'm going to play that game again but this time focusing on City States and keeping my population under control. Thanks for all the info/advice!