Critique my start on Emperor!

[Sneakysnaga]

Someone on another thread mistook me for a 'professional' Civ player. This thread should dispel that notion! I started a game on Emperor for the first time, and it looks a bit messed up to me! So I thought I'd show you some screenshots and you could all tell me whats gone wrong (or right!).

Its not a total disaster I think. More fine-tuning than anything else. Maybe!

OK first up the start is vanilla CIV3 on a standard size map, random barbarians, random landmass type. The world is standard/moderate in age climate etc. All civs are random including mine, and all victories are possible. In other words, there are no favours to anyone, and it should be a true test!

Firstly, I find that I am playing the Romans, militaristic and commercial. This makes me consider my best option long term is to build up cash and armies and try to compete that way, rather than by hoping to win on culture, or keep up in the tech race. Thats not likely at this level anyway I expect.

My opening terrain looks promising, and I immediately pop my worker onto the nearest hill to see as much as I can before selecting a city site. Here's what I see.... (I hope these pics are going to work...)


I am very happy with this. I've struck gold, by getting no fewer than 3 food bonuses. I also have a luxury, and just in view on the left is a whale bonus. I scratch my head, wondering about the hut. If I settle with it in my radius it pops. Will it be friendly? Everytime I've ever popped a hut that way it has been, but I don't know how that works. I don't want to be dead in the 1st turn! I figure that I need to move to the coast anyway. Staying 1 tile away is not sensible, but where to go?

There are two hills that look good defensively (ignoring the northernmost as too far), but they have drawbacks. The one to the north would leave me missing the whale. The southern one would be an extra turn to get too, and it looks like I've be stuck with a lot of unproductive sea. With all this food around, I'm thinking this is my Settler Pump in the making. I also consider the water to the east. The northeastern water looks like a fresh pool for irrigation. I suspect the southern one to sea, but cannot be sure.

I could be at a three way meeting point of landmass.... or not. On the world map I see I am reasonable centrally located. Certainly not so extreme N-S ways to make a big difference to anything. Slight preference to southern exploration maybe. Especially since there seems a good chance that there is good ground that way.

All in all, I decide to take one step westwards, and build by the sea, to get to the sea and avoid an inadvertent hut popping. I get the whale, and all the food bonuses and ivory will be mine when my palace gives me cultural expansion.

tbc...

 

[Sneakysnaga]

OK so next I send my worker to the lake to start irrigating and roadbuilding back towards the city. This route will get water to the food bonus tiles, and will leave me with a small task to get the ivory in later.

I select to research pottery at 100% because I want that granary for the settler pump, and I build the mandatory first warrior! When I build him, I will eschew the hut for now, and go and look south.



tbc...

 

[Sneakysnaga]

My warrior is not long built and exploring, when this happens....
Egypt is right up my nose already, and I'm not very happy about it.

At least I have some early trades of techs. My two initial techs for hers.

But now I am having to worry. Egypt cannot be far away. How far? And if they are coming my way, was that just an accident, or does it mean there is not much land that way? I can already see that the southern most patch of water WAS the sea, so I am on a narrow strip of land. Maybe this is an island? Also, the land down here is as good as I suspected... we're both going to want it!

Note to self: get ready to fight!

 

[Nad]

Here's an early point to consider: why did you not consider moving next to the lake to be on fresh water?

 

[Sneakysnaga]

I build another warrior or two, and send one up north to scout out the land. Damn it looks like I really am on an island! Luckily, I can see other land nearby. There won't be any need for suicide galleys in this game. Good.

To the south Cleopatras warrior and mine have been shadow boxing. I try to discourage exploration on her part, while trying to sniff out her position. I maybe waste time here, but I wanted to get a good idea for the rest of the island and I felt that Rome was exposed with only one warrior at home. Meanwhile I've identified some dyes nearby. A second luxury is definitely worth grabbing.



I've also built my first settler. I'm closing in pottery, so I'm now prebuilding a temple, meaning to switch across to granary when the research is done.

If this really is an island, I'll be chasing writing and then map-making.

 

[dgfred]

My next couple of settlers would be used to block off the Egyptians and get
down to those dyes . Do not forget the Ancient Cav that you should be
able to get with little problem . You seem to have excellent food prod.
already- you may want to charge for Iron Working to guarantee you can get
to some Iron easy and build your Legions for . Just a couple of
suggestions, we will keep lurking to help , love the screenshots!!!

 

[Sneakysnaga]

OK so I move my second settler south to claim to good ground. Meanwhile Cleo has a settler bobbing around too. She seems not to like the close attention of my warrior. I consider just attacking and enslaving before it can build. I bide my time.

She founds Memphis. I can see that there is another Egyptian city nearby. I found Veii. Veii is a bit further from Rome than is ideal in my book, but it brings the dyes within reach. I'm in a good defensive position on a hill. Its seems ok to me.

 

[dgfred]

You may get swamped if you attack now on Emperor , just hold off and
quickly settle to block. How long before the next settler is available?
The Egyptians might not have anywhere else to go but toward you , and
you have problems trying to out-culture them for the dyes . That being
said you might have wanted to found Veil already with a dye or two, they
will become very valuable on an island for both you and the AI. My 2c only.

 

[Sneakysnaga]

OK, I'm Militaristic right? What should I do? I have a warrior perched outside their city, they have one within. I check the terrain to sure... its grassland, so no defense bonus. Its a 65% chance of a win to me. I attack! And score... I take Memphis!

Cleo is mad as hell at me. But guess what? She wants peace. She gets peace. At a price!!!



So now I have all her techs, and all her gold, and it turns out she only has one other city....

 

[Sneakysnaga]

Hmm... maybe you were right dgfred... as later turns out I am unsure whether my war strategy was all that good.... one more shot to post ok?

 

[Sneakysnaga]

OK so now we are fast-forwarding slightly. Firstly I now know it IS an island.

I basically had a number of turns of war/peace/war with Egypt. The pattern was that they would pop out a settler, I would tag along with an archer. They'd start the city, and I would take it.

Meanwhile I've expanded quite nicely on my own. I have established my settler pump: 5 shield/5 food per turn.... couldn't be better!

Essentially, I have Egypt right where I want them, more or less. Except to say, I might need a good sized stack to take Thebes. Also Cleo's habit of popping out archers any time there's a good target in range is annoying, and she keeps ignoring my boundaries with a spearman/settler combo!

I've got to mapmaking so I can look to expand off the island. I started on the Great Lighthouse, to aid navigation. I begin to doubt this... and everything else when...

But then a Japanese warrior popped onto a tile on the next landmass. We talk. I buy a tech and their map. I won't sell them contact with Egypt. Cleo will badmouth me no doubt. I get contact with the Indians.

They are both a 2-3 of techs ahead, culturally disdainful, and Japan is way too close for comfort. So what looked to be working out, maybe isnt quite so comfortable.



Do I wipe out Egypt now, despite the cost in shields to make the units? I guess I need to look to get to the land off the island that I can see is still vacant too, right?

I've noticed I am definitely too relaxed about letting cities fall into disorder. Not good...

Time to pause and take some advice!

 

[dgfred]

I would drop the Lighthouse project-too long on Emp- and go to expanding
as much as you can while you can! Wow, Egypt start spot was definately
bad for them . I do not see Iron--- can you see any or get some soon?
Badly needed for Rome, you may have to work very hard to get it, others
will be reluctant to sell and then face legions! Much fun helping, at least
I hope helping .

 

[Sneakysnaga]

I don't yet have ironworking. I think I may be able to buy it. Maybe.

 

[ForTheEmpire]

EDIT:

Do not forget the Ancient Cav that you should be

He's playing vanilla, so no ancient cavs. He won't have THAT easy of a time laying the smackdown on the AI.

Firstly, I find that I am playing the Romans, militaristic and commercial. This makes me consider my best option long term is to build up cash and armies and try to compete that way, rather than by hoping to win on culture, or keep up in the tech race. Thats not likely at this level anyway I expect.

What is your victory goal? It sounds like domination or conquest. I would finish off Egypt now, since Japan has yet to make contact with them. Cleo only has one city left right? Just send 4-5 archers and pray Can you get a world map from Japan and India w/out costing your arm or leg? And where is India? I'm guessing north of Japan on the same landmass. If not, keep Rome at producing settlers and keep shipping them over to the neighboring land. I would bring more defense for those settlers since you have to galley them over. I'm not going to comment on placement on cities, but in general, on island maps, I woud have place the cities closer, at RCP 3 if possible, to get in as many cities on your home island. But you found out a bit late that your land was a lone island, so its forgiven

Keep making those contacts as fast as possible. The lighthouse may not be all that important, if the islands are not all that far apart. And don't worry about tech pace, just make contacts fast, and trade away.

 

[Arathorn]

Initial thoughts/comments:

- Initial move was definitely NOT one I would've made. If I'm going to move, it's going to be to get fresh water and/or a food bonus immediately. I'd've moved south one, hoping it was fresh water. You'll be on the sea if not and access to that early wheat grass is very nice, even without fresh water immediately there.

- Vis-a-vis Egypt, you got LUCKY. Attacking with one warrior is a surefire way to lose a lot of games. An ultra-early attack is fine, but you should have nixed the early granary in Rome, if that was your plan, and done archers instead. Pick expansion or warmongering and stick to it. Trying to do both leads to haphazard execution of both, which is generally not a good thing.

- 5 fpt/5 spt is NOT an ideal settler factory. It's an ideal worker factory. 5 fpt/7.5spt is the key to getting settlers every four turns.

- Are you patched up to the latest? Seems like you would be getting autorazes on those Egyptian cities with the 1.29 (I think is the right number) patch. Capturing size 1 cities immediatley after they are founded is a VERY old exploit that was patched out pretty early. I suspect playing an old patch has let you abuse the game, but I'm not sure.

- Watch the cities. A city in your first ring should not be rioting. That's a BIG cost, honestly.

- Not the city placement I would've chosen, but it's not bad. It should certainly be enough to win you the game.

- Egypt, now, really needs to go. Find the troops and finish her off.

- What govt are you? Have you gotten into Republic yet? If not, that should probably be a focus.

- Get more galleys out and explore. Settle north island if you can. Don't fear Japan -- use them as a trading partner now, as much as possible.

- Either Veii or Heliolopolis needs to get a cultural building a long time ago, so that the irrigated wheat 2 NW of Veii can actually be used. Right now, it's wasted worker turns.

That's all I see right now. In general, though, looks like you should be set up to cruise. There's enough land there for one excellent civ, even if you never go sea-crossing. Solid trading and some defense and you can probably win diplo/space without sweating much at all.

Arathorn

 

[Sneakysnaga]

Thanks Arathorn. Just what I was looking for.

I guess that is a fair comment about being lucky. I think I've been lucky in general since Egypts starting position was so terrible. Having a neighbour who you can bully around is a rare advantage.

I'll get back to you on the version number, but there is no autoraze in this version. Whatever that is. I don't see why this is considered an exploit. I have to whoop their warriors/spearmen for these cities!

I agree on city placement. Blame the AI! She founded half my cities! A weakness in the strategy.

Havent got Republic yet. Nor have the AI.

Interesting/surprising that you think I have enough land on my island. It looks like not enough to me. Maybe I have an expansionist bias I'm not aware of??

 

[Arathorn]

I'm not saying I'd stop with your starting island but I am saying there's enough there for a core to get dominant, if you so chose. I'm much too much a warmonger to want to stop, but I wanted to present it as an option.

No autoraze means 1.00, I believe. Maybe 1.07. I would HIGHLY recommend updating to the last patch (try http://www.firaxis.com/downloads_product.cfm?product=10,12,13 for the patch -- 1.29) as it helps balance the game in a lot of ways.

Firaxis said then that capturing size one cities was too easy and exploitive, so they removed it, in some cases. I tend to agree with them, but the fact is our opinions don't matter squat, and that it can't be done in even late vanilla patches and none of PTW or C3C.

As for lucky, attacking 1-on-1 with a warrior vs. a warrior is not a good gameplan for repeated success on Emperor. Sometimes it will work (like in this case), but it won't work often enough to make things very dicey in those games. I'd rather not put my game on a 2/3 (OK, 65%) chance. And I don't see how you figure a 65% chance, anyway. Looks to be regular vs. regular, so the odds are ALWAYS in the defender's favor. Even a vet vs. a fortified defender is just over 50% in the attacker's favor. Needlessly risky. Don't buy the fallacy of "It worked so it was a good choice".

Arathorn

 

[Sneakysnaga]

I got 65% from one of the strategy articles I think.

I have PTW but I'm not running it cos its bugged all over the place. I don't know how much is fixed with patches. I guess I should look into that, or just pay up for C3C!

 

[Tomoyo]

You should patch it, because C3C unpatched is also very buggy.

 

[Sneakysnaga]

OK I'm patching! I got a bit more determined to find the site with the patches for the UK release. I gave up a bit too easily last time out!

Sorry FTE I missed your questions and comments. I'm inserting numbers into your post to make it easier to answer them.

EDIT:
(1) What is your victory goal? It sounds like domination or conquest. I would finish off Egypt now, since Japan has yet to make contact with them. (2) Cleo only has one city left right? Just send 4-5 archers and pray (3) Can you get a world map from Japan and India w/out costing your arm or leg? (4) And where is India? I'm guessing north of Japan on the same landmass. If not, keep Rome at producing settlers and keep shipping them over to the neighboring land. I would bring more defense for those settlers since you have to galley them over. (5) I'm not going to comment on placement on cities, but in general, on island maps, I woud have place the cities closer, at RCP 3 if possible, to get in as many cities on your home island. But you found out a bit late that your land was a lone island, so its forgiven

(6) Keep making those contacts as fast as possible. The lighthouse may not be all that important, if the islands are not all that far apart. And don't worry about tech pace, just make contacts fast, and trade away.

(1) This may be very bad form indeed. But I am inclined to play to etablish my civ securely, see how I stand before committing to a definition means of victory. Given the militaristic nature of Rome, I felt domination was my best option all other things being equal.

(2) Yep... I cornered her! That was my thought, although probably 4 archers plus a spearman, or she'll get at my stack via her roads.

(3) World maps they didn't seem too keen to hand out, as usual. I find buying Territory Maps works best. You can infer what the rest is, to a degree. Also, I may be wrong, but the AI seem to be later more happy to sell the WM if they think you have most of it already.

(4) There's no sign of India on Japans map so there's no certainty about where they are. North is probable. East would be nicer!

(5) Again, I would place cities closer myself in general. Once I deliberately departed from this (Veii) for a purpose (Dyes). The rest of the time its been the AIs build. I'll look to infill if I can.

(6) Yes, I'd more or less decided to drop the Lighthouse. It was a bit of an aberration for me to build it anyway, and I've probably only dropped enough shields in for a temple or barracks, so no problem there. Interestingly it seemed to spark an AI wonder frenzy. Do they react like that? Laughably, at one point Cleo with her one city started to build a wonder! Hahahaha! As you say... contacts and trading are the way to go. India and Japan know each other but noone else, so there are more civs to be found. I'll post some more moves when I can.