SultanRedSnake
Warlord
Hehe I wanna help make this a thing. Cortana told me that Monarchy should totally get buffed.
Dawn of Civilization General Discussion
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
Logoncal
King
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2016
- Messages
- 655
Hey Leoreth, since you're planning on changing France's start date, what about Spain? Currently, it feels incredibly strange Spain spawning very early and also very exploitive as Spain spawns with way too many techs to easily rush Gunpowder/Firearms. The Spain AI is also extremely powerful, overpowering continental opponents (Tho i imagine this could or have been fixed in the new map).
I think historically you could make the argument to push their start to 910 AD (Kingdom of Leon established).
It's not easy to pick the right start date for Spain because of their close interaction with the Moors. The other aspect you could put up for discussion is their spawn location. Spawning on the Madrid/Toledo spot is certainly ahistorical, for either of these dates but particularly the current earlier one.
However, pushing back the Spanish start, plus their birth protection interval, narrows down the time window that the Moors and Arabs get to conquer Iberia before their deadlines significantly. The opposite could be said about a more accurate start location in the pre-reconquista Christian north: if Spain is already there it becomes trivial to control Iberia.
Another aspect to consider is that ensuring a successful Spain is more important for the game than ensuring an accurate experience for the Moors or early Spain. Spain conquering the New World is not supposed to be guaranteed but should always be the most likely course of the game, especially given their historical areas. For that reason Spain needs to be prioritised when making these decisions.
The current setup where the Moors arrive first, followed right after by the Spanish appearing right next to them, feels a little strange but in my opinion produces the best overall playing experience for the Moors and Spain, while also setting AI Spain up for success in case the player controls neither civilization. I have already played both civs on the new map and I think it feels good from both perspectives, and definitely better than on the current map (one city Cordoba is not nearly as crowded, for one).
I did not pay that much attention to their overall power relative to other European civs. I think we can observe this after the new map is available on develop. Honestly, I am not too worried though, from what I have seen. Also consider that France now spawns earlier too and should not be as rushable as before.
It's not easy to pick the right start date for Spain because of their close interaction with the Moors. The other aspect you could put up for discussion is their spawn location. Spawning on the Madrid/Toledo spot is certainly ahistorical, for either of these dates but particularly the current earlier one.
However, pushing back the Spanish start, plus their birth protection interval, narrows down the time window that the Moors and Arabs get to conquer Iberia before their deadlines significantly. The opposite could be said about a more accurate start location in the pre-reconquista Christian north: if Spain is already there it becomes trivial to control Iberia.
Another aspect to consider is that ensuring a successful Spain is more important for the game than ensuring an accurate experience for the Moors or early Spain. Spain conquering the New World is not supposed to be guaranteed but should always be the most likely course of the game, especially given their historical areas. For that reason Spain needs to be prioritised when making these decisions.
The current setup where the Moors arrive first, followed right after by the Spanish appearing right next to them, feels a little strange but in my opinion produces the best overall playing experience for the Moors and Spain, while also setting AI Spain up for success in case the player controls neither civilization. I have already played both civs on the new map and I think it feels good from both perspectives, and definitely better than on the current map (one city Cordoba is not nearly as crowded, for one).
I did not pay that much attention to their overall power relative to other European civs. I think we can observe this after the new map is available on develop. Honestly, I am not too worried though, from what I have seen. Also consider that France now spawns earlier too and should not be as rushable as before.
SultanRedSnake
Warlord
Are we playing the same game? AI Spain has *mostly* struggled in my games for the past few versions. Common observations are declaring on Moors too early and having their lands pillaged, unintelligent tech/build priorities, and even after conquering Cordoba with free army, crazy-ass Isabella will never seek peace with Moors as they build more and more ships. As most of this takes place before Spain hits Renaissance, the Moors retain core tiles in Iberia that strangle Cordoba.
AOS9001
Slightly over 9000.
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2009
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- 784
I think we should move Spain’s start date back to represent the Visigothic Kingdom!
In most of my games Spain does take Cordoba, but because of this culture problem they seldom get ships out of the Mediterranean. Marrakesh just has too much culture and ends up controlling the strait of Gibraltar until the Moors collapse. In my Spain games I usually have to go capture it and vassalize Moors to get their culture off my core and out of my strait. Hopefully the new map gives some more space beteeen cities in that region.
Toledo wouldn't be anhistorical in this case. It could be renamed Madrid later.
However they may fall too early because of the Moors.
Logoncal
King
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- Apr 25, 2016
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- 655
I have seen countless games where Spain has France has a vassal, taking both Marseille and Bordeaux. Maybe this case isnt that Spain is strong but rather Frace neglects hard on military. Also, Spain's production compared to France is astronomical so even if the AI builds badly, they build ALOT.
Dracosolon
King
Maybe the French AI is just predisposed to surrender.
Joking aside, it's true that Spain has much better production, as a side effect of sharing Iberia's starting resources with two civs.
Joking aside, it's true that Spain has much better production, as a side effect of sharing Iberia's starting resources with two civs.
smileywalk
Civ addict
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2024
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- 19
As I understand, it's not possible to conquer the last city of a new civ. I'm playing China and Korea has just appeared. I have a great general from fighting barbarians after building the Terracotta Army. So I can quickly build enough troops to conquer Korea but I don't want to replay a war at every turn because I don't know when I can conquer them. How long does the last city limitation last? Thanks! P.S. Copilot couldn't tell me.
Logoncal
King
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- 655
Probably until "Rise of X" is over. In normal thats 5-10 turns.
1SDANi
Sister Lady
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2014
- Messages
- 2,932
Please stop using copilot for advice, it's like asking a random stranger in the park for advice on how to play RFCDOCIV, ninety nine percent of whatever it tells you will either be completely made up or wildly outdated
SultanRedSnake
Warlord
Copilot told me haters would say things like that.
I still hope it's a joke.
smileywalk
Civ addict
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2024
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- 19
I confess it's true cause I didn't want to ask every little thing here. Does anyone else think we should train a RFCDOCIV AI model and call it Oracle?
Derdan
Warlord
No I do not think we should do that. Nor do I think it is feasible to do that.
Logoncal
King
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2016
- Messages
- 655
Being mega hyped lately for 1.18, so i have been cooking up some games. This time, managed to do a Ottoman Historical. It was a good mix of building and war, even tho said war is literal curbstomps against everyone who are miles weaker than you. If anything, the hardest goal was the first.
My highlights in this game was the Silk Route somehow appearing in Istanbul which gave me access to the Silver Tree, which.... Yeaaahh, an easy wonder to build AND a busted bonus.
Dracosolon
King
At what pace did you expand? I tried it and maintenance + stability + potential attacks from Europeans make it seem like quick expansion can backfire.
