Deity Tiny Culture

[jesusin]

jesusin as Gandhi in a Inland Sea map against Musa and Asoka.
1340AD cultural victory.

First rolled start had Settler on PH with Corn, Cow, Marble and Gold. No more rolling.

Agri-AH-Wri-Alphabet 1920BC
By Alphabet I had 3 cities (all with the same Asoka's religion) and a Settler.

Try Oracle as they don't have PH, get CoL and a religion. Musa sent me missionaries of the other 2.

Very bad tech trades. Pyra 725BC. Parth+Gpro bulbs Theo in 600BC, for my 5th religion.
400BC 6 cities. MoM, AP, NE.

82bpt at 1AD. Very confounded tech trading. I'm falling out of the trading game.

GE for Sistine's. By 375AD, all 5 religions in all 6 cities; 4 cathedrals.

Researched Nationalism when I should have researched Education. They both got it before me, so I couldn't trade for Education. At least I got a use for a bad-luck GE, it built Taj Mahal in their face.

Liberalism as late as 1080AD .
Mercantilism 1250AD, I had to research from MC and Monarchy onwards myself. How can I have traded so bad?

90% GA failed and was yet another GE. It really didn't matter in the end.

1340AD cultural victory with 6 cities and 5 cathedrals per Legendary city. 18 Great People generated but only 14 of them were GArtists. I could have used a GS!
Culture per city: 1000, 650, 650. Bombs per city: 2, 6, 6.

So all in all an easy-to-beat game.


EDIT: I had problems keeping 100% culture; it was the fault of being out of techs to trade.
Zero total cottages all game long.

 

[neilmeister]

Impressive first roll, and great luck on the religions. Despite the tech trading disadvantages, it is quite an impressive date.

I imagine it was at normal speed, the previous date was pretty poor

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Congratulations jesusin! Good date and well played game that mitigated the bad luck.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[jesusin]

Yes this was Normal Speed.
I have now played an Epic Speed game on the same settings. Please read on.

 

[jesusin]

jesusin as Gandhi in a Inland Sea map against Musa and Asoka. Epic Speed.
1250AD cultural victory.

2Corn+Pig+Gold+Silver start.
Agri-AH-Wri-Alphabet
By Alphabet (2075BC) I had 3 cities, 3 Workers half a Settler, one religion and Marble controlled. Pyramids is maximum priority now.

GPFarm is great, Fish, Corn, 5 FP (but no hills). The other Legendary city is so-so.
I got late to a useless site that would have controlled Stone. Semi late to the 5th city. 6th city was useless (inside my borders, with oasis and Copper).

Trading was fine. Got Pottery on the Alphabet trading round. I chose MC and traded it for Currency, Maths and 75% of CoL.

A GS for Academy, another for bulbing Philo.

Music race lost. 875BC Pyramids. 625BC Parthenon.
AI built early AP, thank you!

85AD: all 4 religions in all 6 cities. 6 cathedrals built. 120bpt (but please be kind on me, this was just after a round of hard whipping).
I should mention I am often changing to and from Slavery and Castes.

505AD first to Liberalism, free Natiolism that Musa already has; use bad luck GE for TajMah. AP assigned me the useless Stone city with a 5th religion. 5 turns of whipping just for the GPFarm... maybe a mistake, but this is Epic, 5 turns is nothing.

Traded continued ok, with some hundreds of gold and up to Guilds.
Four total cottages all game long.

A GE at 88% GA probability delayed victory 4 turns. It was used in a Golden Age, saving 1 turn.

1250AD cultural victory with 6 cities and 4 cathedrals per Legendary city (5 in the capital). 18 Great People generated but only 14 of them were GArtists.
Culture per city: 1300, 500, 600. Bombs per city: 0, 8, 6.

 

[neilmeister]

Very impressive jesusin, beating a date on the deity tables by 500 years is awesome.

Is this the start of a takeover of the deity culture table?

 

[WastinTime]

It's about time you came back, jesusin! How many years has it been? I'm sure you've learned a lot since then. (me too. Maybe I should play culture again?)

 

[jesusin]

It's about time you came back, jesusin! How many years has it been? I'm sure you've learned a lot since then. (me too. Maybe I should play culture again?)

I've been struggling to play 12 games a year (BOTM generally) all his time. So I have been mostly forgetting what I knew.
Curiously enough I've happened to choose always the same victory condition every game

Wait, I think I've learnt something! I think I've learnt to properly acknowledge the value of a hammer city in a cultural BTS game. And also to hate the Spy-way to culture victory.

It would make things more interesting if you played for culture again.

 

[jesusin]

Very impressive jesusin, beating a date on the deity tables by 500 years is awesome.

This is something that makes me unhappy. Maybe I should bring HOF staff attention on it:

After so many years of Civ4 HOF competition there are still very easy to beat spots on the tables.
Are there too few players? Are there too many spots?
I wonder how many of the current number one games are the only games submitted on those settings.

 

[Seraiel]

There are still very few games on most slots, because not many people can win Deity and even be competetive in that. There's lots of room upwards, I i. e. remember having played a Cultural game which would have been an 1100 AD victory date if...

I hadn't gotten 6/18 Great Prophets from having a Shrine...

Regarding your game, I ask myself why you find the Pyramids so extremely important. 800 BC Mids is a very late date, I've sometimes see them go at 2000 BC which is simply impossible, but 1000 BC they're gone like in 80% of the cases in my games.

I do play cultural games without the Mids usually though, as the Legendary-cities have to go for cottages anyhow, and those 4-5 Artist-Specialists in the GP-Farm? Imo to little to justify such an investement. I also remember having libbed at 300 AD already (also Nationalism) . Parthenon and sixtine I understand, but besides those two, I only value Oracle for CoL, though as told, the Great Prophet points can wreck whole games, so I'd not be sure if I'd Oracle at all in my next game.

 

[jesusin]

Regarding your game, I ask myself why you find the Pyramids so extremely important. 800 BC Mids is a very late date, I've sometimes see them go at 2000 BC which is simply impossible, but 1000 BC they're gone like in 80% of the cases in my games.

Pyramids are not extremely important at all. That's why:
1.- They didn't become a priority in my (Normal Speed) game till 2000BC, REXing was much more important.
2.- I didn't choose a Stone start.

Now, they were available, I had no cottages to speak of, the happiness is nice... why not give them a try?
The main benefit I obtained from them happened after Liberalism. Without them you just simply stop researching. With them you get to Mercantilism for 1 additional artist in every city.

As for AI wonder dates, I think you are spot on with the dates you mention. Now, in this particular game there were only 2 AI and they were busy with several other wonders.

I do play cultural games without the Mids usually though, as the Legendary-cities have to go for cottages anyhow, ...

IMHO you don't really need cottages in a BTS Deity cultural game.
I have experimented with Deity cultural games without cottages and without Pyramids with very good results. You basically beeline Alphabet and then research a single tech from time to time to spur up tech trading.
The conclusion I draught is that Deity AI research so fast that the player's actual research rate doesn't make any difference.

...and those 4-5 Artist-Specialists in the GP-Farm? Imo to little to justify such an investement.

I am sorry, I don't understand this part. Would you be so kind as to clarify?
In the Epic game I had +22 food excess in the GPFarm. IIRC I had health problems so I only could sustain 10 artists plus one from Mercantilism.

Maybe you are referring to the Pyramids investment. I made plan-ahead calculations with and without Mercantilism, resulting in one and a half additional GreatArtists with Mercantilism. That alone would justify the hammers investement IMO.
The start had a lot of trees around the capital, by the way.

I also remember having libbed at 300 AD already (also Nationalism) .

Yes, you are right. In both games my Liberalism date was unimpressive.
I think it was due to the fact that I had only 2 AI to trade techs with.

Parthenon and sixtine I understand, but besides those two, I only value Oracle for CoL, though as told, the Great Prophet points can wreck whole games, so I'd not be sure if I'd Oracle at all in my next game.

100% agree. Every time I ignore Oracle I regret the free tech. Every time I build Oracle I regret when I get my first GreatProphet.
Parthenon or Sistine are a reason to abandon a HOF map if lost.



Thanks for your comments. I love comparing strategies and trying to improve them. Please show me I'm wrong!!!

 

[Seraiel]

Pyramids are not extremely important at all. That's why:
1.- They didn't become a priority in my (Normal Speed) game till 2000BC, REXing was much more important.
2.- I didn't choose a Stone start.

Now, they were available, I had no cottages to speak of, the happiness is nice... why not give them a try?
The main benefit I obtained from them happened after Liberalism. Without them you just simply stop researching. With them you get to Mercantilism for 1 additional artist in every city.

I usually easily trade for Banking, and the Commerce from the foreign Traderoutes in the end outweighs the free Specialist by quite a bit, even with sixtine. I'd agree that maintaining Research is worthwhile when playing a "normal" game, but in a "HoF-game" , there's imo nn for that, because nobodoy will ever go to war in those games, and Lib -> Nationalism + Printing Press / Economics / Corporation is really everything that's needed.

Of course, having the Mids is still very nice, but the techs I mentioned can be very well reached with simply specializing the Helper-cities to Hammer and let them build Research. Maintenance is usually no problem in those games anyhow, as trading resources always seems to give enough for me, due to the extremely small empire I usually have (like 8 cities on a Huge map, 8 cities = 2 cathedrals per type * 4 religions = 8 cathedrals) .

As for AI wonder dates, I think you are spot on with the dates you mention. Now, in this particular game there were only 2 AI and they were busy with several other wonders.

2 AIs is really something special and completely changes the game as I learned. Wonders can go extremely late, so Mids without Stone (something one would normally never think about) can be a good investment, I understand now.

IMHO you don't really need cottages in a BTS Deity cultural game.
I have experimented with Deity cultural games without cottages and without Pyramids with very good results. You basically beeline Alphabet and then research a single tech from time to time to spur up tech trading.
The conclusion I draught is that Deity AI research so fast that the player's actual research rate doesn't make any difference.

This is actually very interesting, as I follow a completely different tactic, but agree with your observation partly.

What I observed, is, that Cottages simply overtake Specialist easily over the long run, and traditional culture are long games. I've had cities making over 800 CPT with 3 Cathedrals, and that's impossible with Specialists.

What I'm just thinking, is, that you run the Culture-Slider a lot earlier and get yourself the Research from the REP-Specialists, right?`That'd be interesting, because it'd be completely different to what I do, what basically is beeline Music -> Get up Cottages -> Bulb Education -> Lib Nationalism -> Research to Printing Press -> Shut off Research for the rest of the game.

I think I will test that Mids + REP tactic once I'll play for Culture again. I imagine it to be hard to get the Cathedrals up fast enough and that's probably why you also have a hard time rexing. With the tactic I described, everything comes after another, and if one is really good, one has the Cathedrals just in place when those Cottages just all grew to Villages and Printing Press kicks in and one shuts off the Research.

I am sorry, I don't understand this part. Would you be so kind as to clarify?
In the Epic game I had +22 food excess in the GPFarm. IIRC I had health problems so I only could sustain 10 artists plus one from Mercantilism.

I just noticed that I forgot half of my Specialists . My GP-Farms are obviously a lot weaker than yours usually, because I don't build Farms, and only run Specialists from the Food-Resources, and those are (most often) not more than like 5. I do run Artists in all Helper-cities too though, and with them, it'd be 15-20 Specialists easily. Doing so often results in something like 4-5 extra GAs, as usually every city can create at least 1 GA over the cause of the game.

Maybe you are referring to the Pyramids investment. I made plan-ahead calculations with and without Mercantilism, resulting in one and a half additional GreatArtists with Mercantilism. That alone would justify the hammers investement IMO.
The start had a lot of trees around the capital, by the way.


Yes, you are right. In both games my Liberalism date was unimpressive.
I think it was due to the fact that I had only 2 AI to trade techs with.


100% agree. Every time I ignore Oracle I regret the free tech. Every time I build Oracle I regret when I get my first GreatProphet.
Parthenon or Sistine are a reason to abandon a HOF map if lost.



Thanks for your comments. I love comparing strategies and trying to improve them. Please show me I'm wrong!!!

Thx for your post too . Your answer really surprised me, so I hope mine does too ^^ .

 

[jesusin]

With the tactic I described, everything comes after another, and if one is really good, one has the Cathedrals just in place when those Cottages just all grew to Villages and Printing Press kicks in and one shuts off the Research
(...)
Thx for your post too . Your answer really surprised me, so I hope mine does too ^^ .

I am not sure I have fully understood the way you play.
- Which civics do you use before shutting off research?
- How do you build your cathedrals if you want all of your cottages worked non-stop?
- How many GP do you generate in your average cultural game?
- After shutting off research, are your auxiliary cities working mines to get Economy/Corporations or are they hiring artists to generate 1 GA? Or one thing then the other?

I've had cities making over 800 CPT with 3 Cathedrals, and that's impossible with Specialists.

Really? From my second game report:
Culture per city: 1300, 500, 600

In BTS there are 3 ways to get cpt. Cottages+slider, Specialists and buildings. It's buildings what gives me such a culture output without cottages.

When you play with no cottages you farm it all, of course. The main difficulty of this way of paying is the balance between Slavery and Castes (shen not playing a Spiritual civ). I generally run Slavery+OR till Liberalism->Nationalism, then shut off research and run Castes+Pacifism from then on.
One side benefit of playing this way is that you can work mines while you can't hire artists. Both mines and artists need farms to support them.
So in this game, with only 2 AI, sith so late a Liberalism date... what could I do with my capital's hammers? build Wonders.




There are 3 things I'd dare to recommend to change in your way of playing (please note that, since I don't fully understand how you do it, It may be all nonsense):

- Farm your GPFarm in your cottages games. You can then use it as Legendary or not. But please maximize the GP output of your NE city.

- Use Mercantilim, not Free Market. In my games Mercantilism provides 1 additional GA and also I get the last GA a couple of turns sooner. The increment in cpt got through traderoutes can't compare with this.

- Shut off research at Nationalism. Trade for PrintingPress (sometimes you can get PP with Liberalism and then trade for Nationalism). Don't prioritize Corporations.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

A cultural strategy of spamming Great Wonders is competitive with other methods mentioned here. Hybrids of the basic strategies may also be better than than any of the base strategies alone. I don't believe that anyone has optimized traditional cultural victory yet; I'd expect that an early rush would be a component in an extremely early traditional cultural victory.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Seraiel]

I will check that with that game which was destined for 1100 AD. 800 CPT was from a different game. What I just remember was, that in the 1100 AD game, the capital even produced 1300 CPT, but I'm not sure.

And yes, hybrid is the way to go there, that's right. I went Wonders with lots of Culture and preferably GA-points, Cottages on riverside Tiles, and Food for Specialists on the weaker tiles.

More screens would definately help, and comparing things is a way of being intelligent and really finding out about things .

Number of GPs in that 1000 Ad destined game btw. was between 18 and 20. Unfortunately, as told, 1/3 became Great Prophets, the reason to that game not beating all records but "failing" miserably in the end with the capital producing culture for over 20T when already being legendary.

Maybe the time for the screens should be something like early Expansion phase, Music / Civil Service and Liberalism? I'm sure there is not too much coming after Liberalism that matters.

Not sure about the early rush btw.: Cultural games only need very few cities, taking them by Force could be even more expensive than peacefully rexing them. Greatest advantage of Conquest is, that the cities are bigger, but that's not needed in cultural games as all helper-cities can be size 1-4, important is only to get the 3 L-cities asap.

 

[neilmeister]

Wow, really impressed with Inland Sea for Culture games.

Just submitted a Huge Deity game, taking 1.5 centuries off the previous date. Would have been better but only got the 3rd religion with about 20 turns to go.

Flood plain cottage paradise for all 3 legendary cities, even the GP Farm. Missed the Music GA but I generated 17 artists of my own. Bombed 4-5-8

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Very well done, neilmeister!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

@Seraiel:

Early rush can be always get a better date than peaceful expansion for all victory conditions. Cultural Victory is no exception to this observed fact. Even RLDV can benefit from an early rush and there is precious little time to do this before The Apostolic Palace can be built; the fact that Huayna Capac may be the only leader can easily do this doesn't invalidate the strategy of an early rush. There is a lot more time to perform an early rush in a Cultural Victory than RLDV.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Inland Sea is probably still the best map for cultural victory. All rivers entering the sea, set one up for early foreign trade routes.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Seraiel]

Uh... Elder's Scrolls Online BETA just went online... I think my free time for the next 10y has just gone away...