Development thread for 1.5

[gilgames]

On the other hand, it might work to leave the wonders in the city, without any changes. Right now I don't even remember why I chose to remove them on persecution, if that was an actual decision or just followed the easier route

I belive you did it because the spanish UHV. So they have to demolish a city with wonders, true it doesn't make a lot sense. I think the recaptured "wonders" had a shift in their function usually, i mean the religious wonders. so later on they can funtion as a cathedral? idk.

 

[AtlantaMarty]

SOI has an option on conquering a city to massacre all the heathens, which removes foreign religions from the city at the cost of halving the population. Could there an option in RFCE when capturing an indy city to 'drive out the rebels', which reduces the level of independent culture in a city at the cost of halving the population?

Potentially it could be done with any indy city, to reflect the tendency for some conquering empires to drive out indigent population and resettle their own people.

I don't know if it's possible, but it would be interesting if each religion in a city could be assigned to a certain number of people (i.e. Cracow has 13 citizens - 10 are Catholic, 2 are Jewish, 1 is Orthodox)

 

[Tigranes]

Anyone knows what is wrong with 1260 Map on SVN? It is not playable? Selecting Byzantines make defeated. Selecting French gives you no units in cities. What happened to the workable map?

 

[AbsintheRed]

Anyone knows what is wrong with 1260 Map on SVN? It is not playable? Selecting Byzantines make defeated. Selecting French gives you no units in cities. What happened to the workable map?

Sry, forgot to rename catholic reliquiary into the generic reliquiary in the scenario file.
Will fix it in a sec.

 

[DC123456789]

The "Some of our forces are joining the enemy to help their war of liberation" message is in green. Wouldn't red be better, since it's not a good thing from your point of view?

 

[cmakk1012]

No, because national liberation should be the goal of all peoples, to overthrow the imperialist bourgeoisie and establish the dictatorship of the proletariat!


(disclaimer: I’m not actually a Communist)

 

[Swarbs]

Returning to England's UP, I still think this needs a boost. The workshop doesn't become available until quite late on, when the power is much reduced in value as the Replaceable Parts boost to mines, windmills, watermills and quarries is just around the corner.

What about replacing the workshop with the borough for the English? This was the Norman evolution of the Anglo Saxon burh:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burh
"Burhs also had secondary roles as economic centres, safe havens in which trade and production could take place. Armouries, blacksmiths, royal mints and trading posts were all located within the burh. They would be used as supply depot for the Saxon army when it was in the field, thus ensuring that the Anglo-Saxon troops had a continual supply of weapons, fresh horses and food."

Boroughs become available with blast furnace as they were locations for blacksmiths, and give -1, +3, +1, but gain no extra from Apprenticeship. This would make them powerful but not OP, as they would only slightly exceed workshops but would be available earlier.

Overall the boost would be similar to that France gains from the Chateau as you would only build a few per city, mainly on flat moorland, so it would give England parity with France for production potential.

 

[gilgames]

I would add, that It should take 1-2 turn to turn them into workshop...

 

[AbsintheRed]

Returning to England's UP, I still think this needs a boost. The workshop doesn't become available until quite late on, when the power is much reduced in value as the Replaceable Parts boost to mines, windmills, watermills and quarries is just around the corner.

What about replacing the workshop with the borough for the English? This was the Norman evolution of the Anglo Saxon burh:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burh
"Burhs also had secondary roles as economic centres, safe havens in which trade and production could take place. Armouries, blacksmiths, royal mints and trading posts were all located within the burh. They would be used as supply depot for the Saxon army when it was in the field, thus ensuring that the Anglo-Saxon troops had a continual supply of weapons, fresh horses and food."

Boroughs become available with blast furnace as they were locations for blacksmiths, and give -1, +3, +1, but gain no extra from Apprenticeship. This would make them powerful but not OP, as they would only slightly exceed workshops but would be available earlier.

Overall the boost would be similar to that France gains from the Chateau as you would only build a few per city, mainly on flat moorland, so it would give England parity with France for production potential.

I agree with all your main points.
The cottage UP will be updated in one form or another.
Will get to the UHV/UP updates, those are planned for 1.6.

 

[Swarbs]

I agree with all your main points.
The cottage UP will be updated in one form or another.
Will get to the UHV/UP updates, those are planned for 1.6.

Thanks

Couple of other thoughts I had:

Ottomans
Ottomans work much better in the 1200AD scenario - you are much less likely to run into a massively OP Hungary, Byzantium or Arabia with huge SOD they have been building for centuries. Although the first two UHVs are too tight for time imo - hard to rush all the way to the Balkans then all the way back to Egypt within the limited amount of turns you have.

Also they're a bit limited with three conquest UHVs and nothing else to focus on, given they did a lot of building as well. And their capital was never at Gallipoli, so the current starting point isn't historically accurate.

Therefore:

1. I would propose starting the Ottomans in 1326AD, ten turns earlier, to reflect the capture of Bursa, as that was, imo, a more important point in the emergence of the Ottomans than the fall of Gallipoli. Move their start point one tile east and have them found Bursa in 1326 then flip the same area
2. Amalgamate the first two UHVs into one - control Selim's empire by 1517AD. Gives much more flexibility to conquer different parts of the empire in turn rather than just rush Europe then rush to Egype
3. Add a new 2nd UHV to build Topkapi Palace and the Tomb of Al-Walid. The present tomb was extensively rebuilt by the Ottomans, so this would have a degree of historical accuracy, particularly given the late age techs it requires for building. Also consider adding the Blue Mosque as another Islamic wonder also in the UHV


Russia
Boyars are very UP for Muscovy, particularly when trying to fight the Mongols. Shock is a near useless promotion as there are almost no heavy infantry that stand up to knights anyway, except Knights of the Dragon and Bajoras which may well be gone by the time Muscovy spawns. They are much more likely to face Knights, Keshiks, Guisarmers and Longbows against which they have no advantage and thus very little value.

Therefore:

1. Give Boyars the Ambush promotion instead of the Shock promotion. That would give them an advantage over Keshiks and make them useful again rather than just being slightly adjusted Knights which are available far too late.
2. Make them light cavalry, as that was contemporary with the Russian army of the time:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...ejAP#v=onepage&q=boyars light cavalry&f=false

"Unlike the Polish cavalry, which like the cavalry of the West European medieval knights and Rajput cavalry were geared for charge and close-quarter combat, the Muscovite cavalry-like steppe nomadic light cavalry was charaterised by its mobility, large operational range and harassing attacks"

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...EwEw#v=onepage&q=boyars light cavalry&f=false

"The sixteenth-century landholder had served his sovereign in the army, an army that was essentially a mass light cavalry composed of the landholding class"

3. Give them a -20% city attack penalty so they don't become OP

That would make them more unique and valuable, and not immediately obsolete with gunpowder and longbows.

 

[gilgames]

I buy it! Both!

 

[Swarbs]

Finding a bug in the 1200AD scenario - playing as Sweden when I discover Printing Press and embrace the reformation it doesn't work. I end up with only my 3/4 largest cities having Protestantism and my religion still being Catholic. Doesn't seem to happen if another civ discovers PP, as when I played as the Netherlands there was a good balance of Cat and Prot civs after autoplay.

Also no islands on the map in the 1200AD scenario, and currently fresh water lakes give 1 in the 1200AD scenario but 2 in the 500AD scenario.

 

[Swarbs]

Also no islands on the map in the 1200AD scenario, and currently fresh water lakes give 1 in the 1200AD scenario but 2 in the 500AD scenario.

In general, 1200AD scenario map is different from the 500AD map in quite a few ways. No iron and horse for TO, Riga is one square W. I appreciate it's still in test mode, but would be good to make the map consistent so testing can be done on a consistent basis.

 

[El Bogus]

I think AbsintheRed had plans to update the Russian/Novgorodian part of the map before updating the 1200 AD map.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Finding a bug in the 1200AD scenario - playing as Sweden when I discover Printing Press and embrace the reformation it doesn't work. I end up with only my 3/4 largest cities having Protestantism and my religion still being Catholic. Doesn't seem to happen if another civ discovers PP, as when I played as the Netherlands there was a good balance of Cat and Prot civs after autoplay.

Thanks, will test it out!

Also no islands on the map in the 1200AD scenario, and currently fresh water lakes give 1 in the 1200AD scenario but 2 in the 500AD scenario.

In general, 1200AD scenario map is different from the 500AD map in quite a few ways. No iron and horse for TO, Riga is one square W. I appreciate it's still in test mode, but would be good to make the map consistent so testing can be done on a consistent basis.

Sure, the 1200AD map will be the same as the 500AD one, but first I have to finish my updates on the base map.
There are many other things btw, none of the changes in 1.5 were implemented in the 1200AD scenario.
(the old lake system instead of proper fresh water and salt lakes, also their specific names shown on the wrong tiles in quite a few places are one of the bigger issues though)

I think AbsintheRed had plans to update the Russian/Novgorodian part of the map before updating the 1200 AD map.

New resources and terrain features are the most important thing IMO, but yeah, there are some general map changes as well.

 

[Swarbs]

Sure, the 1200AD map will be the same as the 500AD one, but first I have to finish my updates on the base map.
There are many other things btw, none of the changes in 1.5 were implemented in the 1200AD scenario.
(the old lake system instead of proper fresh water and salt lakes, also their specific names shown on the wrong tiles in quite a few places are one of the bigger issues though)

New resources and terrain features are the most important thing IMO, but yeah, there are some general map changes as well.

Cool, sounds good.

I've played a few of the later civs on the 1200AD map - the later spawning ones like Austria, Russia, Ottomans and Dutch are generally better balanced as there is less time for OP AI civs to grow, particularly Germany or Hungary. Will probably also be good for Prussia and Lithuania once the map changes are in place.

Nothing worse than the Ottomans capturing Constantinople and then getting a 30+ Hungarian SOD appearing two turns later!

 

[Rafaelito]

Thanks

Couple of other thoughts I had:

Ottomans
Ottomans work much better in the 1200AD scenario - you are much less likely to run into a massively OP Hungary, Byzantium or Arabia with huge SOD they have been building for centuries. Although the first two UHVs are too tight for time imo - hard to rush all the way to the Balkans then all the way back to Egypt within the limited amount of turns you have.

Also they're a bit limited with three conquest UHVs and nothing else to focus on, given they did a lot of building as well. And their capital was never at Gallipoli, so the current starting point isn't historically accurate.

Therefore:

1. I would propose starting the Ottomans in 1326AD, ten turns earlier, to reflect the capture of Bursa, as that was, imo, a more important point in the emergence of the Ottomans than the fall of Gallipoli. Move their start point one tile east and have them found Bursa in 1326 then flip the same area
2. Amalgamate the first two UHVs into one - control Selim's empire by 1517AD. Gives much more flexibility to conquer different parts of the empire in turn rather than just rush Europe then rush to Egype
3. Add a new 2nd UHV to build Topkapi Palace and the Tomb of Al-Walid. The present tomb was extensively rebuilt by the Ottomans, so this would have a degree of historical accuracy, particularly given the late age techs it requires for building. Also consider adding the Blue Mosque as another Islamic wonder also in the UHV


Russia
Boyars are very UP for Muscovy, particularly when trying to fight the Mongols. Shock is a near useless promotion as there are almost no heavy infantry that stand up to knights anyway, except Knights of the Dragon and Bajoras which may well be gone by the time Muscovy spawns. They are much more likely to face Knights, Keshiks, Guisarmers and Longbows against which they have no advantage and thus very little value.

Therefore:

1. Give Boyars the Ambush promotion instead of the Shock promotion. That would give them an advantage over Keshiks and make them useful again rather than just being slightly adjusted Knights which are available far too late.
2. Make them light cavalry, as that was contemporary with the Russian army of the time:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KyVnAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=boyars+light+cavalry&source=bl&ots=WTmmntmbRP&sig=N1G8BV5yOKHiN1a7HxYDnApE9vw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjb7pfMo5HZAhXiJMAKHYznBu4Q6AEIejAP#v=onepage&q=boyars light cavalry&f=false

"Unlike the Polish cavalry, which like the cavalry of the West European medieval knights and Rajput cavalry were geared for charge and close-quarter combat, the Muscovite cavalry-like steppe nomadic light cavalry was charaterised by its mobility, large operational range and harassing attacks"

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vB0OqzCU5i4C&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=boyars+light+cavalry&source=bl&ots=6MHQwRp3jM&sig=3cNO5Iz4DzHrlH_qbuwBk27S50s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjb7pfMo5HZAhXiJMAKHYznBu4Q6AEIiAEwEw#v=onepage&q=boyars light cavalry&f=false

"The sixteenth-century landholder had served his sovereign in the army, an army that was essentially a mass light cavalry composed of the landholding class"

3. Give them a -20% city attack penalty so they don't become OP

That would make them more unique and valuable, and not immediately obsolete with gunpowder and longbows.

I agree with your suggestions, specially of Russia boyars, as this upgrade vs melee seems pretty useless by the time they spawn. Bajoras and Mashuknik have long been gone so far.


By the way, I've finished this mod with 10 or more civs already, playing it by years and i would like to point another suggestion that actually seems important for gameplay:

Byzantium

The unique power is nothing to the human player. If you rush manor houses, you will never go below "shaky". Even keeping Egypt while the Arabia spawns. Also, is pretty easy to deal with the barbarians invasion, and Constantinople will never be threatened at all...there are no invasions spawning nearby, neither the Vikings invasion at 868

My suggestions:

Add a new unique power which makes Byzantium starts with imperialism civic, as they were a legitim empire by that time, and stability is a thing when you are trying to reconquer the old Rome (you will be fine if you stay at your home with +30 very solid stable but going 0 stability with 3-4 foreign cities). The most exciting thing playing as Byzantium is to trying to reconquer the old empire but this is pretty impossible to even reach Spain (believe me, I've tried a lot).
The current power has nothing special at all, at least for a human player. You never should allow your stability drop, so this power should never be used. Not to mention that your core areas will be reduced by the time the game goes, when other civs spawns like Bulgaria and ottomans (when Thrace and annatolia will no longer be cores), so adding imperialism would really give some actual UP to Byzantium.

2. Constantinople's walls must be tested, sieged as they were a lot by the years. Adding muslim barbarians, vikings Rus, Avars, nearby the great city, would be nice.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Just some quick replies here:
Agreed on the Boyars.
Not yet sure on the Ottoman start, otherwise ok.
Agreed on Byzantium too. With more turns in the early game, I want to represent the early emperors ambition to restore the Roman Empire somehow.

 

[Rafaelito]

Just some quick replies here:
Agreed on the Boyars.
Not yet sure on the Ottoman start, otherwise ok.
Agreed on Byzantium too. With more turns in the early game, I want to represent the early emperors ambition to restore the Roman Empire somehow.

Sounds nice. I can barely wait for the next update

Russians civs and Byzantium are my favorites Civs

 

[gilgames]

I partly disagree on Boyars. Early on you fight Bajoras and Ushuiks, both melee, Boyars were against them, and works fine. Later you can still use them as rush&defend since they get def bonus.
+1 for Byz imperial

The ottoman start is meh, not good in any case, does not matter which start. you can easily fail if you onlyy build units. I used to closest to uhv if i expand in both way at once. but the barbs in Asia Minor @1450 are a real pain for ottomans. also in 500ad start arabs used to be respawned 3rd time and still very strong. Also they tend to settle a sithload of cities in their starting area, wich makes is more harder. And the early stability problem is still there....