DG3 Discussion - Demogame Rules

Shaitan

Shaitan

der Besucher
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A majority of voters in the info poll want to bring over all of our DG2 rules to DG3. Most of the comments in that thread indicated that things needed to be fixed or slimmed down. Discuss what needs to be fixed here and work out the fix for it.
 
I think that we need to scrap everything except the constitution, and rewrite the CoL and CoS from there. That is the only way to stop beurocracy.
 
I'm new to the demogame and think we should just bring over the constitution. That way we would rewrite the other rules and I would then be able to fiqure everything out. :)
 
Shaitan, I am curious as how you want to implement your plan. Do you mean that whenever someone breaks an old rule, we re-implement it and get them tried?
 
I'm currently working under the assuption we're gonna follow that poll and import everything.

Of course, there are changes that I think there are changes that need to be made.
First off, some fonts in the online document need to be standardized, not to mention the fact that the last 5 standards are all mislabelled. :p

  • Perhaps we could spice up the preamble to the constitution a bit.
  • Make changes I'm working on for PI stuff - that's almost done, and may end up needing a constitutional amendment.
  • The Chain of Command should be changed to affect all leaders, not just departments. (CoL G.2)
  • Rethink forum organization (CoS A) BTW: Any word on new forums?
  • Simplfy Gubenatorial Renaming Rights (CoS C.5)
  • Add pre-chat procedure to current procedure (Co D).
 
We should keep the Consitution but scrap everything else Octavian, I would be willing to collaborate with you in rewriting parts of the CoS and CoL.
 
i second that approach... revamp the rules completely... maybe something totally different comes out then ;-)
 
@Goonie - No, there wouldn't be any expostfacto trials. When a rule is needed it would be created in the normal fashion. None of our rules are actually needed if we have a truly cooperative environment.
 
Would this be a good time to spout off about how the Code of Laws and Code of Standards were developed? In the beginning there was the Constitution. The people saw fit to change the constitution every time they wanted things done a bit differently. Soon the constitution had evolved from a decent framework for the demogame to an unwieldy set of inflexible rules. A way out of the predicament was suggested: re-write the constitution and return it to the general framework that it should be. Make it difficult to change. Then make up a set up rules as the need arises to define what is in the constitution. Make these rules easier to change than the constitution. Finally, allow the leaders to run their departments as they see fit, within the bounds of the constitution and any rules formally made.

Unfortunately, the last part of the idea never materialized and was actually transformed into the Code of Standards which was made a proving ground of sorts for rules before they were inserted into the code of laws. The result is a rule set even more unwieldy than the constitution we tried to fix in DG1! By importing all the rules from DG2 to DG3 the same problems are imported as well. My suggestion is to not rush into DG3. Start with the constitution and modify it. Concentrate on the way the different aspects of the Civ 3 game should be split up. Take a close and careful look at over-rides. Think about eliminating them for they have proven to be a source of dissention among your leaders. Look at the government offices and see how they can be changed so that they are more equitable in their power and usefulness. Think of new ways to play the demogame. One thing that never caught on was players taking up residence in the different cities. Try having local (city and provincial elections). Instead of electing governors nationwide let them be chosen by the citizens who live in the province. Give the citizens some say in what happens in their city and province.

Wouldn't it be nice if the demogame Code of Laws had *laws* establishing Civ 3 game parameters rather than just demogame rules? For example, a statutory limit on military spending or a requirement that provinces produce a given number of workers within a specified time period. *Laws* that would change over the course of the game. By putting specific Civ 3 parameters into the CoL I think citizen participation and debate would be more focused and interesting. Combine this with some power at the local (city and provincial) level and demogame participation may actually grow over time.

By simply bringing everything over from DG2 to DG3 many opportunities to improve the demogame will be lost.
 
Yes, this is the appropriate time. ;)

While I don't agree with all of donsig's suggestions, I fully agree that we should take the CON with us and that's it. The minutiae and regulation of the other two books contain many things that simply don't need to be there and complicate the rules to an unacceptable extent. Despite this game being considerably longer than DG1 there was almost no refinement of the rules. Not because it wasn't needed but because it is a monster than nobody wants to play with.

Tame the beast. Retire the Code of Laws and Code of Standards. We'll still have them for a reference so when things pop up and we decide a rule really is needed we have examples to use or bring over verbatim.
 
then what about a poll to decide it?

this would also fit into our civ of the babs, which wrote the first book of law in history...

we should implement a "constitutional convent" thread for pre discussion of to be implemented rules to minimize threadcount on constitutional matters. if the "constitutional convent" comes to the conclusion an idea is worth publically discussing, the idea would then be posted in his own thread to get official discussion running until it is decided upon. if the rule is implemented, the convent also requests closure of the discussion thread.
 
Originally posted by disorganizer
then what about a poll to decide it?

this would also fit into our civ of the babs, which wrote the first book of law in history...

we should implement a "constitutional convent" thread for pre discussion of to be implemented rules to minimize threadcount on constitutional matters. if the "constitutional convent" comes to the conclusion an idea is worth publically discussing, the idea would then be posted in his own thread to get official discussion running until it is decided upon. if the rule is implemented, the convent also requests closure of the discussion thread.
Click to expand...
NUNS! NUNS! REVERSE! REVERSE! :eek: :aargh:

Joking aside for a minute, I'm not sure that such a thread would be such a good idea. It looks like a "meeting about whether to have a meeting" to me, in that the issue will be discussed in the Constitutional Convention thread and then in the seperate discussion thread as well - meaning that people will end up having to follow two threads on the same issue instead of one and increasing the inefficiency of the process. It may also result in some rules proposals slipping through the cracks if made in the middle of discussion about whether to discuss another rule. :crazyeye:
 
I say we stick with the current rules, but change PIs a bit.

EDIT: Post 50,000 for the Demogame 2 Forum! WOOT!
[party] [dance] :band: [dance] [party]
 
This aspect of the game has an excellent chance of delaying the start of DG3 if we don't resolve it. The large majority in the poll responded that they wanted all 3 books to come forward so that's what we will be doing ( :( ). Any specific rule changes should be posted here to be polled. Anything unresolved by the start of DG3 will need to be resolved in DG3.

Note that we need actual rule change proposals (including eliminating rules if that is the desire). Simply pointing out which areas need to be changed will not help at this point.
 
Well, have fun people. I was hoping DG3 would be interesting enough to entice me to play but I can see there will be little change from DG2 to DG3. :( Choosing something as important as the basic rules of the game on a poll where 25 people voted goes to the very heart of the biggest problem in the demogame: writing and interpreting polls. Why this poll and not one written a bit differently? Why poll this subject and not others (like peace/building vs. war/conquering)? Some of us have been trying to get the point across since DG1 that how a poll is written can greatly affect the voting outcome of the poll. I'd go even further and say that some polls should never even be posted and most shouldn't be posted without proper prior discussion. And *proper prior discussion* includes discussion about the format of the poll in question. What is the big rush to get DG3 actually running? The quicker it is rushed into the more problems there will be in the future. Remember the old saying: *getting there is half the fun*? What the heck is wrong with taking a month to decide the basic rules of the demo game and how the government should be formed? A month invested could reap so much in playing benefits and enjoyability that it would be well worth it. It certainly seems preferable to hanging on to a system that is acknowledged to have flaws.
 
well, as amazed as i am about it, i have to admit i have to second donsig at this one...

one question (i was absent, so excuse me):
was anything of the DG3 polls discussed and the poll-options posted in threads? if not than they are not official anyways and have to be redone i believe :-(
 
Originally posted by disorganizer
well, as amazed as i am about it, i have to admit i have to second donsig at this one...

one question (i was absent, so excuse me):
was anything of the DG3 polls discussed and the poll-options posted in threads? if not than they are not official anyways and have to be redone i believe :-(
Click to expand...

And I will second dis, here. I would really like to repoll this...
 
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